The Great Sonic Continuity Debate

[Crazy Penguin]

Not a particularly logical conclusion.

[K2J]

Why? He was able to replicate Chaos and the Emerald Shrine, so surely he would know something about Angel Island?

[Baba O'Riley]

Fanon is a dreadful phenomenon.

[Dr. Watson]

Fanon is a dreadful phenomenon.

I dont know, i kinda like the idea that the various non-Metal Sonic Sonic-robots are one and the same. Eggman should have more recurring henchbots anyway (although i pray that the little "Ergo"-guy doesn't become one).

[K2J]

Since we were talking about a retcon just a bit ago anyway, a rather popular internet video commentator seems to think a massive Western-style reboot is what's right for the series right now. It's weird - a lot of what he's proposing is already present in Unleashed (boost move, water running, lowering the amount of characters), so it got me thinking: is Unleashed a reboot of sorts? The series has a looser continuity than ever, so it's hard to classify it as a straight reboot, but more of a turning point akin to what was mapped by SA1 and solidified by SA2.

But since I'm a Nintendofag I wasn't around for the previous transition. What do you guys think? I don't personally see the merit in a codified reboot, but does anyone here? Does anyone have predictions for the next game in the wake of Unleashed's well-received daytime stages?

[Rob-Bert]

All I can hope for is that they drop the Werehog/secondary gameplay in general and focus on refining what they've attached Sonic himself to, like slowing him down and building the levels accordingly.

[Ritz]

They've already confirmed that the werehog will be making an encore appearance. I foresee the series going absolutely nowhere within the next two years.

[Dr. Watson]

They've already confirmed that the werehog will be making an encore appearance. I foresee the series going absolutely nowhere within the next two years.

Oh for fuck sake, just the hell is wrong with Sega? I mean, did they somehow got the absurd impression that the reason why Unleashed got better reviews that most previous 3D Sonic games had anything to do with the fucking werehog? Didn't virtually every game reviewer in the world said that while Unleashed was a step up for the series due to the Sonic levels, the werehog levels fucking sucked hairy monster-balls, and that the game would have been much better if it had been all Sonic levels? Doesn't statements like that kinda send the message that what people want from a 3D Sonic game is basically Sonic Unleashed MINUS THE GOD DAMN WEREHOG?

I know i am probably overreacting but this seriously has got to be the dumbest move Sonic Team has EVER pulled. Even the idiotic ideas they implemented in games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heroes can be partially excused by that they tried out new things that they didn't know whether people were going to like or not. But this time around they decide to go ahead and re-do the exact same fucking mistake that ruined the last game. My God, have they now so completely lost passion for the series what they wont even take the time to come up with new ways to destroy it?

[K2J]

"In principle, I think that the users are always right. They're the ones paying the money and playing the games. If they don't enjoy it, they're not going to buy it," Katano tells Videogamer. "I don't think that producing the Werehog was a mistake per se, but there were a lot of things we could have done better if we had more time and resources."

This is probably not a big big confirmation - he could mean anything from "We'd like to see combat in the future" to "Stretchy Arms Sonic is coming back bitches". The main problem now is that Katano seems to think the problem was execution, not design. Even though the hunting stages in SA2 were generally well-done and encouraged some cool exploration, people didn't like them because they clashed with the general idea of a Sonic game.

[Xyton]

I know i am probably overreacting

No, that sounds about right to me. :|

[Wombatwarlord777]

I really look forward to the day when we can primarily play as Sonic's normal self. But another thing to consider is the balance of speed and exploration. Should SEGA make a game in the vein of SA and Sonic 2006, with more focus on navigating tight spaces, gimmicks and platforms, or more in the spirit of SatSR or Sonic Unleashed, with incredibly fast speeds and a dependency on precise timing?

Personally, I think the best way would be to combine the two. I know it's been mentioned in previous threads, but imagine a huge Adventure Field, similar in size (or larger than) Hyrule Field in TLoZ:TP. Most of this field is an expanse of rolling hills, plains, maybe some curving mountain paths, and perhaps a few ledges which neccesitate jumping, as well as enemies the player can choose to attack or ignore. The purpose of this big field is to offer minimal resistaince as Sonic travels to the Action Stages. Because the Adventure Field is largely flat and free of obstacles, it allows Sonic to showcase how fast he truly is, aided with an optional boost similar to the one in Sonic Unleashed (but much more controlable in the left and right directions). To add depth to this field are areas requiring more precise control, perhaps with inconsequential items or optional upgrades as rewards. If the development team were really ambitious, they might add areas that allow the player to exploit realistic physics. An example might be Sonic running up the side of a canyon wall starting from its bottom, or perhaps even an unscripted loop or two. At some point in the game, this field could be entirely ignored once Sonic (or Tails) gains the ability to pilot the Tornado, with unique challenges and hazards for aerial gameplay.

Then, in the action stages, the style of gameplay is determined by the environment. If Sonic runs along beaches or on a highway, then the focus is obviously on speed and quick reflexes. If Sonic is in a volcano or a factory, then the focus will be more on precision platforming. The only requirement is that each stage must be engaging for the player. Also, no matter how Sonic is playing, his control must feel responsive and natural to the player. This combination of control and stage diversity was perfectly captured in the very first Sonic game, which Sonic Adventure managed to closely duplicate. I think it could be done again to an even higher degree in another 3D game.

There's my idea. Conversely, they could fine-tune the mechanics and structure of Sonic Adventure. As long as it isn't a travesty like Sonic 2006, I'd be happy.

[FlashTHD]

is Unleashed a reboot of sorts? The series has a looser continuity than ever, so it's hard to classify it as a straight reboot, but more of a turning point akin to what was mapped by SA1 and solidified by SA2.

Only in a really really loose sense. Where SA1 was legitmately a new, fresh overhaul in most every department - shaking up everything down to the character design all at once - Unleashed is a game that spends more of its' time wishing it was SA1 or recycling its' parts. The "turning point" you speak of went farther than Unleashed was willing to.

I know i am probably overreacting

You are. And I get that this is like an overreaction to an overreaction but I couldn't help it:

a) Chill out
b) Kotaku, in character as always, paired down the quotes for easier-to-digest sensationalizing. The more important part they they chose to omit is a confusing soup of double talk. Try to wrap your head around this:

For the improvements, I can't think of anything right now off the top of my head. If I think of any ideas then Sonic Unleashed 2 will be the time for that, so I don't really have an answer for that. But you will see the Werehog again. I like Secret Rings very much, but when it came to making this title [Sonic and the Black Knight] we chose to do something different. All the good things about Secret Rings belong to that specific game. So in the same way, unless we're going to make Sonic Unleashed 2 you might not see him again. But if we are going to make it, you might see him again. It's a possibility.

Yes you'll see him again. No wait, you won't. Perhaps. Unless we do Unleashed 2. Then maybe. And yet you might not. Whether or not we do it you won't/will possibly see/not-see the Werehog again. Jesus bub, pick a damn door.

c) Katano was not significantly involved with Unleashed (I think) so he is not the best person to be asking about sequel plans to that
d) Unless something happens or someone more connected to Unleashed's development talks along those lines before then, I see this as pretty irrelevant - he was too busy cancelling possibilites out to confirm anything
e) Chill out

BTW: I noticed the root of the interviewer's question was in the classic "all about speed" territory, so he wound up suggesting that everyone complains about the Werehog for daring to be "so slow" as if nothing else wrong matters. Didn't seem to affect the answer, but still, it's never wise to place much faith in the intent of these previewers/reviewers. I also thought this cute: if you ask the Sonic Team employee on payroll if he seriously thought the Werehog was a mistake, then what friggin' answer do you think you're gonna get, Sherlock?

[cjmcray]

Fanon is a dreadful phenomenon.

I dont know, i kinda like the idea that the various non-Metal Sonic Sonic-robots are one and the same. Eggman should have more recurring henchbots anyway (although i pray that the little "Ergo"-guy doesn't become one).

This is what I always thought. With every defeat, Eggman would rebuild Metal Sonic, making him look different every time. His Sonic CD look being
his 'true' appearance. Sonic 2's design seemed more like a prototype of Metal Sonic, and his S3&K look a more 'advanced' design.

[Majestic Joey]

I just think it's fucked up how Tetsu Katano says, "In principle, I think that the users are always right. They're the ones paying the money and playing the games. If they don't enjoy it, they're not going to buy it." that just sounds like a big F U to fans. People buy sonic games because they are fans despite years of bullshit and then they criticize so they can hopefully make it better next time. He is basically saying to everybody that played the game, "no, fuck you, the werehog is genius. if you don't like it don't buy the sequel."

What an asshole.

[Shadow Hog]

if you don't like it don't buy the sequel.

You mean just like how I haven't bought Heroes, Shadow, 2K6, Rush Adventure or Black Knight, regret purchasing Secret Rings and regret asking for Unleashed as a Christmas present? Because if so, then, well, sure, okay. I've only been doing just that for six years...

[Team Mecha]

This is what I always thought. With every defeat, Eggman would rebuild Metal Sonic, making him look different every time. His Sonic CD look being
his 'true' appearance. Sonic 2's design seemed more like a prototype of Metal Sonic, and his S3&K look a more 'advanced' design.

Although there being 2 sonic robots in the entrance to Final Egg kinda works against that idea.

[cjmcray]

This is what I always thought. With every defeat, Eggman would rebuild Metal Sonic, making him look different every time. His Sonic CD look being
his 'true' appearance. Sonic 2's design seemed more like a prototype of Metal Sonic, and his S3&K look a more 'advanced' design.

Although there being 2 sonic robots in the entrance to Final Egg kinda works against that idea.

Oh. Right. Forgot about that.

[gr4yJ4Y]

I think Katano was trying to say if Sega does Sonic Unleashed 2, they'd bring the werehog back. If they decide to do a different Sonic game, they're going to use different overall themes and gameplay philosophy and not use the werehog.

They put the werehog in Unleashed to stretch out the game length because apparently it would take too long to make a 15 hour long all-Sonic game, with the speed he goes. (In before, "Well, I beat Unleashed on the first try in under 15 hours.") If they called the next Sonic something else, they would come up with a different solution to the game length problem.

[FlashTHD]

I think Katano was trying to say if Sega does Sonic Unleashed 2, they'd bring the werehog back.

Trying to say, possibly, but what he said was "we might" which goes both ways. He said it repeatedly. So I think it more likely he hasn't a clue what he's talking about, or at least he has nothing to do with it.

...ooor the original intent was mangled in translation, and thus who knows.

[gr4yJ4Y]

There's a great figure in my communications book depicting Western and Japanese logic. For the Westerners it's a straight line from point A to point B. For the Japanese it's a swirl. Their logic is indirect. And if you can apply that to the interview, you might actually see what he's saying.

[Wooduck51]

And why has no one brought up these tomes yet?

http://kotaku.com/5210671/sega-of-ameri ... og-origins

And I cannot help myself; a "here-here" for retconning ShTH out of the game cycle, bring the story right back to the end of SA2 and go from there.

[Neo]

And why has no one brought up these tomes yet?

Hmm, I wonder why

[K2J]

There's a great figure in my communications book depicting Western and Japanese logic. For the Westerners it's a straight line from point A to point B. For the Japanese it's a swirl. Their logic is indirect. And if you can apply that to the interview, you might actually see what he's saying.

So Sonic's logic is Western and Mario's logic is Japanese?

[Wombatwarlord777]

Elaborate, K2J. Do you mean in how each series approaches platforming, or something else?

[K2J]

Yeah. 3D Sonic games tend to be very linear, even if there are several different paths to the goal, while Mario levels are more about exploration. Even Super Mario Galaxy (a very mission-like, linear game) was more friendly to exploring than Sonic games, where it's more like a racing game with platformer elements.