The Green Ghost of the Railways

[Rob-Bert]

Sounds closer to what Majora's Mask was rather than Ocarina of Time. :P

[Esrever]

Man, that sounds like a surefire way to make sure I'd never play another Zelda game ever again! More NPCs and sidequests? Next you're going to tell me you want more fishing!

[Crisis]

I agree that the core design of Zelda doesn't need too much playing with, but there's definitely room for flexibility. The whole reason I liked Wind Waker (and to a lesser extent Majora's Mask) was because, while it still followed a classic formula, it was a serious change in direction for the series. I think part of the problem is that the things I liked about WW were also what other people hated.

For example, the low dungeon count. I liked the fact that the game had a smaller number of dungeons, and that they took more of a back seat to the game's progression. It allowed the developers to work on an developing the visual aesthetic and overworld objectives, but also ensured that what dungeon content there was would be memorable and interesting. Pacing, another common criticism, was actually quite excellent until the Triforce hunt, but that didn't bother me much because unlike the gaming masses I quite enjoyed the sailing. The boat controls were intuitive and the ocean was beautiful, but it was the lack of loading times on the world map made it feel like a serious progression from the hub of OoT, which was admittedly excellent as well (Epona was a nice touch in OoT and MM but I felt she had rather outstayed her welcome by Twilight Princess). The cohesive overworld made the sailing experience feel more like genuine exploration and was much more immersive than the other attempts in the series. Furthermore, the game never took itself too seriously and there was a charm about even the really minor NPCs. It's also the first game where either Link or Zelda actually felt like human characters (even if they fucked Ganondorf up a bit), and the only game in the series that actually made me care about the plotline rather than just wanting to hurry up and clear the next dungeon for Link's latest dildo sword or whatever.

Needless to say, Minish Cap and presumably Phantom Hourglass went out of their way to "fix" everything I liked about WW and adapt it to the handheld. The current Zelda mentality is that you can recycle the same plot and characters over and over again but change the dungeons around each time and make them prettier. They're really good dungeons, mind. Well for the most part anyway. But I can't help but lose interest eventually.

[Zeta]

Sounds closer to what Majora's Mask was rather than Ocarina of Time. :P

I loved Majora's Mask, but the game ran out of steam after the third dungeon and the time gimmick was really annoying and that Kafei or whatever quest was just too fucking intricate.

Man, that sounds like a surefire way to make sure I'd never play another Zelda game ever again! More NPCs and sidequests? Next you're going to tell me you want more fishing!

I'd want more fishing if you were fishing for fantastic Moblinfish and Gigantic Poeloaches.

Epona was a nice touch in OoT and MM but I felt she had rather outstayed her welcome by Twilight Princess

There were only three sections of the game where you actually had to use Epona. The rest of the time it was just easier to wolfout and teleport.

Needless to say, Minish Cap and presumably Phantom Hourglass went out of their way to "fix" everything I liked about WW and adapt it to the handheld. The current Zelda mentality is that you can recycle the same plot and characters over and over again but change the dungeons around each time and make them prettier. They're really good dungeons, mind. Well for the most part anyway. But I can't help but lose interest eventually.

I heartedly favor less focus on dungeons than the overworld.

[Dusk]

I agree that the core design of Zelda doesn't need too much playing with, but there's definitely room for flexibility. The whole reason I liked Wind Waker (and to a lesser extent Majora's Mask) was because, while it still followed a classic formula, it was a serious change in direction for the series. I think part of the problem is that the things I liked about WW were also what other people hated.

For example, the low dungeon count. I liked the fact that the game had a smaller number of dungeons, and that they took more of a back seat to the game's progression. It allowed the developers to work on an developing the visual aesthetic and overworld objectives, but also ensured that what dungeon content there was would be memorable and interesting. Pacing, another common criticism, was actually quite excellent until the Triforce hunt, but that didn't bother me much because unlike the gaming masses I quite enjoyed the sailing. The boat controls were intuitive and the ocean was beautiful, but it was the lack of loading times on the world map made it feel like a serious progression from the hub of OoT, which was admittedly excellent as well (Epona was a nice touch in OoT and MM but I felt she had rather outstayed her welcome by Twilight Princess). The cohesive overworld made the sailing experience feel more like genuine exploration and was much more immersive than the other attempts in the series. Furthermore, the game never took itself too seriously and there was a charm about even the really minor NPCs. It's also the first game where either Link or Zelda actually felt like human characters (even if they fucked Ganondorf up a bit), and the only game in the series that actually made me care about the plotline rather than just wanting to hurry up and clear the next dungeon for Link's latest dildo sword or whatever.

I completely agree. The Wind Waker is one of my favorite games in the series (top three, for sure), and a big part of that was how it managed to delve into new territory while still feeling exactly like a Zelda game. The sailing, the increased focus on the overworld (even at the expense of the dungeons), and the charming, memorable NPCs are what really sold me on that game. The point is, in the end I find the Wind Waker to be a rather underrated and under-appreciated entry in the series. Of course, if "prettier Twilight Princess" is, indeed, what we're getting, then I suppose I'll take that too.

[Zeta]

The sailing, the increased focus on the overworld

Good idea, but the Overworld was 90% water. I think the game needed something in about a 25-30% reduction in open sea to be viable. And to have actual interesting sunken treasure to dig up instead of useless rupees.

[Majestic Joey]

I guess the key to zelda is take the same game and add one gimmick or theme to it. Yeah I guess I can't really complain as long as the game is good. They did manage turning link into a wolf in twilight princess. When sega tried that we got unleashed.

[Zeta]

I think both got it wrong in different ways. Turning into a wolf in TP didn't change gameplay enough (can't use items, can teleport, can use an area of effect attack and knock down and bite enemies, can talk to animals, and can use a scent ability that only is used twice). Turning into a wolf in Unleashed changed it too much.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Here's an idea: How about letting us control the other tri-force wielders. Eatch would have their own set of dungeons and shit to obtain for their own chapter/areas. I guess I'd just like to man-handle enemies as Ganondorf sans a Captain Falcon filling. Or just a game totally devoted to Ganon. Playing the bad guy can be fun!

[CM August]

While I hardly think WW was a bad game, I do find it pretty lackluster in most regards and is among my least favorite entries in the series. And it wasn't for being 'too different' either - Majora's Mask for one is my personal favorite Zelda title, followed closely by the more conventional OoT and TP. It's more to do with the execution in this case.

On a side note, it beats me why they put the most miserable, frustrating backstory to date in the most cutesy title. Even MM, one of the darkest Zelda games, had a happy ending that set all the fucked-up stuff right. None of this "The gods are total cocks, but oh well! *sails off in a random direction*"

[Neo]

Man, that sounds like a surefire way to make sure I'd never play another Zelda game ever again! More NPCs and sidequests? Next you're going to tell me you want more fishing!

I can't tell if you're employing some weird twisted sense of sarcasm or if you really, truly suck.

Needless to say, Minish Cap and presumably Phantom Hourglass went out of their way to "fix" everything I liked about WW and adapt it to the handheld.

Minish Cap had the same number of dungeons as the Wind Waker, had about the same amount of secrets and sidequests and there was an emphasis on exploring the world (in two different layers, normal and Minish sized. Even bloody Tingle and his pack of palette swaps made it in.

I loved Majora's Mask, but the game ran out of steam after the third dungeon

Did you even play it? The damned thing flips over.

There were only three sections of the game where you actually had to use Epona.

Let's see, the two goat herding sequences, the first two battles against King Bulblin, and the horseback battle against Ganondorf.

I think both got it wrong in different ways. Turning into a wolf in TP didn't change gameplay enough (can't use items, can teleport, can use an area of effect attack and knock down and bite enemies, can talk to animals, and can use a scent ability that only is used twice). Turning into a wolf in Unleashed changed it too much.

Chidren's scent in Eldin Twilight, Poe's scent in the Arbiter's Grounds, Reekfish scent used to climb Snowpeak Mountain and the odd potion's scent you use to find the skeleton dogs which lead you to clear the Impaz/Ilia quest. Boy, you're bad at numbering things!

Regardless, what would you consider the ideal medium for wolf transmogrification, then?

Here's an idea: How about letting us control the other tri-force wielders. Eatch would have their own set of dungeons and shit to obtain for their own chapter/areas.

Wow. Add in optional missions for each dungeon and you've got a Sonic game!

On a side note, it beats me why they put the most miserable, frustrating backstory to date in the most cutesy title. Even MM, one of the darkest Zelda games, had a happy ending that set all the fucked-up stuff right.

Link seals Ganondorf with the Master Sword, saving the world, the King floods the kingdom for good, so that Hyrule's descendants won't ever have to carry the burden of their tragic past again, putting his own soul to its deserved rest, while Link and Tetra team up and sail off to discover a new land to inhabit, a new Hyrule. And the boat's fine. I don't get what's miserable about that. Ocarina was miserable! Hey, the world's destroyed, but at least it can't be destroyed further! And hundreds of years later, oops.

[CM August]

It's subjective I suppose. I'm quite certain Ocarina's Bad Future timeline was reset once Link returned to the past for good; it would be pretty stupid otherwise. Meanwhile the wash-away-the-past message in WW is, ahem, somewhat spoiled by the fact that it was the gods who truly fucked everyone. Having another hero of legend lined up too much work? Okay, let's send a chosen few to the mountaintops and flood the whole thing with water that's inhospitable to almost everything but monsters. It was really quite disturbing that they even humanized Ganondorf to the extent that he actually had a point, rather than demonstrating that he was 100% evil and removing most of the world's landmass was absolutely neccessary. I can see what they were going for, but I don't think it worked.

[Crisis]

Minish Cap had the same number of dungeons as the Wind Waker, had about the same amount of secrets and sidequests and there was an emphasis on exploring the world (in two different layers, normal and Minish sized. Even bloody Tingle and his pack of palette swaps made it in.

But it still failed to capture the spirit or charm of Wind Waker. I felt no motivation to explore the overworld or interact with the npcs beyond the aforementioned gear upgrade malarky. Compare that to Wind Waker, which grabbed my attention right from the surprisingly emotional opening and showed me a huge immersive game world to explore. Minish Cap was rather forgettable, even compared to previous Zelda handhelds like Awakening and Seasons/Ages (all 3 of which I really enjoyed).

I dunno. If it seems like I'm struggling it's because Minish Cap left so little impression on me I can barely remember it. I enjoyed it enough to finish it so obviously I don't think it was a terrible game. But it was bland enough to put me off Phantom Hourglass.

[Zeta]

Link seals Ganondorf with the Master Sword, saving the world, the King floods the kingdom for good, so that Hyrule's descendants won't ever have to carry the burden of their tragic past again, putting his own soul to its deserved rest, while Link and Tetra team up and sail off to discover a new land to inhabit, a new Hyrule. And the boat's fine. I don't get what's miserable about that. Ocarina was miserable! Hey, the world's destroyed, but at least it can't be destroyed further! And hundreds of years later, oops.

The Gods and the power of the Triforce are impotent to stop one dude with some magic, and instead the only option is to keep a magical kingdom and all of it's inhabitants flooded and then drown them. Those gods suck, just like the other one who flooded and massacred a bunch of people because he got his knickers in a twist.

[Neo]

It's subjective I suppose. I'm quite certain Ocarina's Bad Future timeline was reset once Link returned to the past for good; it would be pretty stupid otherwise.

No it wasn't. Hell, the timeline branches immediately after that one game: after the events of the bad future, give or take a few hundred years, Wind Waker happens. The whole flooding thing happened because Link had been erased from existance (adult Link turned back into a child, child Link went to Termina) and there was no one to stop Ganon. Meanwhile, after Link returns to his time, warns the king about Ganondorf and goes to the parallel universe right around the corner, the king orders Ganondorf's execution, which is ultimately botched and ends up with him stuck in the Twilight Realm. This sets up Twilight Princess, hundreds of years after the past timeline of Ocarina. This is no fanboy bull, it's been explained by the men behind the games themselves, Miyamoto and Aonuma.

But it still failed to capture the spirit or charm of Wind Waker. I felt no motivation to explore the overworld or interact with the npcs beyond the aforementioned gear upgrade malarky. Compare that to Wind Waker, which grabbed my attention right from the surprisingly emotional opening and showed me a huge immersive game world to explore. Minish Cap was rather forgettable, even compared to previous Zelda handhelds like Awakening and Seasons/Ages (all 3 of which I really enjoyed).

I'm gonna pull a Ritz and just say "well, I liked it".

The Gods and the power of the Triforce are impotent to stop one dude with some magic, and instead the only option is to keep a magical kingdom and all of it's inhabitants flooded and then drown them.

Well, to be fair, you can't kill "Ganon". Just like Link and Zelda, there'll always be another one down the line, who'll take the triforce of power, etc etc. I mean, the new "Ganon" appears in the damned game! And Link inadvertantly gives him the power of his precursor. I guess the true reason for the flooding will be revealed in the prequel to the sequel to the prequel.

Damn, I feel all nerdy-like.

[Wombatwarlord777]

Interesting... I had no idea that the timeline split after Ocarina of Time...

Also, isn't Ganon supposed to be the same person throughout all the games (unless he's two separate personalities in the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess timelines)?

[Segaholic2]

Zelda is a really boring game series now.

[CM August]

This is no fanboy bull, it's been explained by the men behind the games themselves, Miyamoto and Aonuma.

A source on that would be much appreciated, since it's about as stupid and nonsensical as actual fanwank. I get the feeling they just made this stuff up in interviews to appease their timeline-obsessed fans, and had no regard for TP's continuity one way or another.

[Neo]

Also, isn't Ganon supposed to be the same person throughout all the games (unless he's two separate personalities in the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess timelines)?

Ganondorf in Twilight Princess is the exiled Ganondorf from Ocarina's past. The Ganondorf in Wind Waker hasn't been confirmed to be related to him or not, and in all the other games, "Ganon", ie. the pig form is essentially the manifestation of evil which apparently cannot be killed.

source

http://www.zelda.com/gcn/legend_popup.jsp?page=2

Mr. Aonuma: In terms of the storyline, we've decided that this takes place 100 years after the events in The Ocarina of Time. We think that as you play through the game, you'll notice that in the beginning the storyline explains some of the events in The Ocarina of Time. You'll also find hints of things from The Ocarina of Time that exist in The Wind Waker.

There's also a more complicated explanation. If you think back to the end of The Ocarina of Time, there were two endings to that game in different time periods. First Link defeated Ganon as an adult, and then he actually went back to being a child. You could say that The Wind Waker takes place 100 years after the ending in which Link was an adult.

http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?subac ... 1173582355

–When does Twilight Princess take place?

Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

–And the Wind Waker?

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

[The Turtle Guy]

Oh wow. I knew there was some kind of a disconnect between the plot of WW and TP, but I hadn't considered that. And the Word of God has antiJossed it, in TVTrope speak. So, where does A Link to the Past work into the continuity now? OoT was clearly a prequel to it.

[Zeta]

Ganondorf in Twilight Princess is the exiled Ganondorf from Ocarina's past. The Ganondorf in Wind Waker hasn't been confirmed to be related to him or not, and in all the other games, "Ganon", ie. the pig form is essentially the manifestation of evil which apparently cannot be killed.

It seems to me that Ganon is just Ganondorf's ghost or demonic leftovers, thus making it the same entity across all of space and time. Whenever we hear the origin for Ganon or Ganondorf it's the same story (thief/wizard takes Triforce of Power and corrupts it) while the origins ans personality of Link and Zelda are different each time. With Ganon finally being killed permanently dead in the original Legend of Zelda.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Wow. Add in optional missions for each dungeon and you've got a Sonic game!

Unless Ganondorf's part is scavanger hunt, and Zelda's is an on-rails shooter, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Also remember that you could play as different characters in MM, which totally kicked ass. I still boot the game up to roll around in Termina field as a Goron.

[Neo]

So, where does A Link to the Past work into the continuity now? OoT was clearly a prequel to it.

Link to the Past makes references to the Imprisonment or Seal War, which is what happens in the future time of Ocarina (Zelda and the six Sages seal Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm). So it takes place some time before Wind Waker, it seems.

[Neo]

Also remember that you could play as different characters in MM, which totally kicked ass. I still boot the game up to roll around in Termina field as a Goron.

That's not what you suggested. What you suggested was three different characters, each with their own gameplay style, levels, and exclusive items. That sounds like Sonic Adventure 2 to me.

Why is the edit time limit so sad? Hell, why is the edit time limit at all existant? Can't it be set to allow editing as long as it's the last post in a topic?

[Zeta]

I wouldn't mind something like the new Prince of Persia's gameplay system, with Link as the Prince and Zelda as Elika, provided the story isn't shitty love crap like in that game.

Also, where the hell does the Triforce of Power go now that Gannondorf lost in in Twilight Princess? Wouldn't that imply it has to find a NEW host instead of old Arabian caricature pigface? THAT would be an interesting plot to work out. Zelda and Link go to face Gannondorf and a new guy or gal who has the Triforce of Power shows up to help. That'd be a nice way to bring back reincarnated Midna back into the series as a recurring character. God, I love Midna.

Why is the edit time limit so sad? Hell, why is the edit time limit at all existant? Can't it be set to allow editing as long as it's the last post in a topic?

Yeah.