YE' GADS!!! Sonic '06 finally does something good!

[Wombatwarlord777]

Thanks K2J, but I was wondering more about how Sonic himself controls. On the Wii version, Sonic can't seem to turn well at all, making some of the Temple rooms a little annoying to navigate. Looking at the PS3 / 360 version of the Chun-nan Daytime stage on YouTube, I find it hard to believe that Sonic on that version has the same problems with turning, given the relative ease with which he navigates those large, spinning platforms.

[Radrappy]

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that because 360 sonic is able to navigate through those Chinese platforms that he must just be a breeze to handle when compared to the Wii version. Wrong. While the Wii Sonic may handle like a car (hence the strong dependence on actual drifting in levels, something not present in the HD version) the 360 sonic controls like the twitchy, squirrely bastard we've all grown to hate. Do you remember in Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic 06 when a slight flick of the stick would send him careening to his death anytime a bottomless pit was within even 100 feet? Well it's the same thing anytime you actually have to stop and do some 3d platforming in Unleashed(which thankfully is not all that often). The controls haven't been tightened at all since 06 which is severely disappointing.

Here's a tip for everyone. Stop judging games based solely on youtube footage.

[FlashTHD]

Do you remember in Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic 06 when a slight flick of the stick would send him careening to his death anytime a bottomless pit was within even 100 feet?

Painfully true in Sonic 06 and (to only a slightly lesser extent) Unleashed, and I think I know where SA2 fits into that, but I know i've never had pit death problems on tiny platforms in SA2 like can happen in the other two.

[P.P.A.]

lol Sonic 06 defendan
The controls in S06 were indeed bad. They just made them bearable by slowing Sonic down to a point where you could easily navigate him, but whenever you picked up speed - for example via a speed booster - he'd become impossible to control and twitch around like an epileptic rabbit. The mid-air controls were the most precise I've ever seen in 3D though... because jumping eliminated any sort of momentum also also slowed you down to a minimum. Jugding by the PS3 and 360 demos, this hasn't changed in Unleashed with the exception that now they made Sonic too fast making the major flaws in the controls much more noticeable.
Then again before we blame the Sonic series alone, are there any other really fast 3D platformers at all? Think about it, Mario was also quite quick in his 2D games, yet in the 3D incarnations he would only move at a fraction of that former speed. I don't think any company has found a solution for this yet; and with the saddening decay of the platforming genre, none ever will.

I overall found the situation in SA2 bearable though. Not nearly as nervous as the controls in SA, SH and ShtH (and S06 and SWA), but of course still far from perfect.

[Isuka]

I played SA2:B not so long ago and didn't have any problem with Sonic/ Shadow stirring outta control at high speeds, just getting squashed or beaten by some enemies/ harmful objects, which is to be expected of actual Sonic games when playing them for the first time. I had MUCH more trouble stirring with that piece of shit Heroes control, and I guess it must be the same with Shadow the Hedgehog.

On the generalized and greatly justified/ proven 2K6 hate (I actually watched the entire Sonic and final parts of that LP before, I didn't think a sane person could emphasize so much when screaming FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!! like that pokecapn dude), I think I hate it so much just because it was one of the Sonic games I had the greatest expectation for, maybe THE most expectation out of any and all games I have ever expected. So, even if it was the last, true attempt at a three-dimensional interpretation of actual, non-Rush Sonic game mechanics and just for that it deserves some props, it's still the hardest pill I have ever had to swallow and I'm not forgiving [whoever is responsible for the trainwreck] any time soon, at least not within the next two full decades. Unless, you know, they deliver.

[Neo]

I guess it must be the same with Shadow the Hedgehog

It's bad too, but a different kind of bad.

[Wombatwarlord777]

P.P.A. wrote:
I don't think any company has found a solution for this yet; and with the saddening decay of the platforming genre, none ever will.

At least as far as controlabe and fun Sonic gameplay is concerned, I think Sonic Team was most successful in SA, partly because Sonic's speed was limited (at least relative to following 3D Sonic titles), making it possible for the player to fully account for the environment Sonic was rushing into, and react in an appropreiate manner. It only makes sense to do so, similar to how Mario had to slow down in his transition to three-dimensional exploring. As exhilarating as Sonic's speedy gameplay is, there's no fun if you're constantly ramming into enemies and traps or hurtling yourself off cliffs because you couldn't react fast enough. This was especially a big problem with Shadow the Hedgehog.

But another thing that helps Sonic's gameplay in SA is level design that's actually forgiving if you accidently swerve the wrong direction. With the exception of Windy Valley, Speed Highway, and Sky Deck, none of the stages have significant "narrow courses / platforms over a a bottomless pit" sements, which makes overly reactive controls a much less pressing and obvious issue. But when you are in constant danger of careening over a cliff, as you are in SA2, Heroes, and Shadow, you'll begin to notice and loathe those twitchy controls.

For the Wii version of Sonic Unleashed, I'm pleased that the level-designers made bottomless pits a temporary and avoidable obstacle, (the banked curves in Holoska lacking guardrails comes to mind) as opposed to a level-wide threats that cheaply inflate the game's difficulty. Except for Eggmanland, of course. It seems appropriate that they'd leave so many cheap deaths for the final level of the game.

[DackAttac]

At least as far as controlabe and fun Sonic gameplay is concerned, I think Sonic Team was most successful in SA, partly because Sonic's speed was limited (at least relative to following 3D Sonic titles), making it possible for the player to fully account for the environment Sonic was rushing into, and react in an appropreiate manner.

This helped. But I think what was the trick in the Genesis games was the rate of acceleration being relatively slower. It took a few seconds to reach top speed, and if you thought you were ready for it, there was plenty to keep you in check. Obstacles that you had to know where coming and how to deal with them. When to jump. When not to jump. When to jump, not jump and stay still to get across that thorn bridge in SA1. (Learning how to do that led to my first and only video game kiosk compliment.) The levels weren't designed with Mach 5 run-throughs in mind, but with Sonic's simple set of moves, it was certainly possible.

In a lot of the 3D Sonic games, if you're ever not at top speed, the game's pretty much stopped catering to you. You're just meant to do stuff that looks really impressive at top speed and get your buzz/fun off that. Hell, Secret Rings and Unleashed encourage you to start at top speed, so acceleration isn't even a real issue. Sure, my adrenal gland is having a grand ole time, but my brain is bored. (Or frustrated when it has to solve problems at 200 miles an hour instead of slowly at first and then faster over time). I see these narrow hallways in Unleashed and just wonder if this is really supposed to thrill me?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Sonic isn't about fast. He's about smooth.

[Wombatwarlord777]

DackAttac wrote:
I see these narrow hallways in Unleashed and just wonder if this is really supposed to thrill me?

Those narrow hallways are just fine for the high-speed gameplay that Sonic Unleashed's daytime stages are trying to produce... But still, the experience seems pretty empty in the long term. I know this sounds hypocritical from a guy who praised Sonic Advance 2's high speeds, but once you go through each stage multiple times, it becomes boring, because you know exactly what to expect and exactly what to do in each stage. There are simply not enough multiple paths in the stages to keep me interested for very long (although it does do better in this aspect that any other 3D Sonic game to date). Also, I miss the non-scripted gimmicks that made each stage in the 2D games (and to a lesser extent SA) so much fun. I mean, can you simply bounce up on a spring anymore and control your descent, rather than being forced around by a string of springs? Now that I've gotten every Sun and Moon Medal, there's very little that's motivating me to go back to the game purely for enjoyment, aside from the music and graphics. I may as well just oggle the concept art and listen to the sound test in the Extras section!

Given the challenge of traversing the obstactles and gimmicks that filled the action stages of SA, there's no way that any stage in Sonic Unleashed can match the depth that was captured in SA. And when Unleashed's daytime stages change to a maddash 2D perspective, I can't help but realize how shallow the Sonic series has become since the Genesis era... I'm guessing that Sonic Team designed the 2D sections in Sonic Unleashed at least in part as a homage to Sonic's 2D origins, but cheap platforming and speed sections make for a lousy homage. That's on the Wii version, at least. Is it any better on the 360 or PS3?

DackAttac wrote:
...that thorn bridge in SA1

What bridge was that, exactly? You don't mean the GHZ rotating thorn bridge, do you?

[DackAttac]

...Yes. Sonic 1 would be what I meant to type there.