Poly Sonic

[Popcorn]

Hey, wasn't it great when Sonic Team games used to have good graphics?

[Dache]

Nah, I still think the PS2 could've handled it with SA2 models. There wouldn't be any need for more textures; they'd just need to be altered, and that's the area where the PS2 really falls down compared to the other consoles. Better models wouldn't take hardly any more RAM.

[Green Gibbon!]

SA1 seemed to do okay with Sonic and Tails.

Well, those poly models were ridiculously low, and then the frame rate was never consistent in SA1.


The character models in Heroes were as complex as they needed to be. In a technical sense, it was very well done. Part of being a good graphic artist is knowing shortcuts and how to make the most out of the least, especially when dealing with 3D models, limited hardware, and the dreaded deadline.

Don't get me wrong, Sonic Heroes is a horrible game and the visual style may indeed be gaudy and unpleasant, but in a purely technical sense, the graphical elements come together. You're nit-picking over things that have no relevance whatsoever on the whole.

[Popcorn]

You're nit-picking over things that have no relevance whatsoever on the whole.

What, like how? Crap player models have no relevance?

[Crazy Penguin]

I liked in SA2 how when you press jump whilst in the middle of a somersault Sonic does this cool spinny thing whilst jumping.

[Green Gibbon!]

What, like how? Crap player models have no relevance?

Well that's the thing, they're not crap models. The only time they seem noticably clunky is when the camera is extremely close-up, usually only during the win poses. The character design itself is horrible, but the models are well made. It would've been a waste to make them needlessly detailed.

[G.Silver]

How different is that from Maya? It seems that's what the grand majority of game companies use... most require at least 4 years of experience with 3D Studio Max. I like to pretend that knowledge of Maya will make 3D Studio Max easy to get into.

I actually haven't used Maya, it has all those weird buttons and stuff on it doesn't it? From what I've heard though, the interfaces are the biggest differences, so it's just a matter of figuring out what does what between the programs. I was able to get 3DS more or less figured out in about a month of banging my head against the keyboard, so I figure it should take you significantly less.

[BlazeHedgehog]

It's not as easy as that. It's ridiculous how much characters slow things down, even simple ones. To have three on screen at a time, basically all moving independent of each other, is extremely taxing on the hardware if they wanted to maintain a consistent frame rate. It's also a matter of pragmatism: in reality, the camera is rarely close enough for the player to distinguish just how low-poly the models are, you can usually only tell during those ridiculous win poses. Plus there is a significant difference in power between the PS2 and the other two consoles, and since it was intended for release on all three, it also wouldn't have been pragmatic to program extra features that only one or two of the consoles would've been able to handle. It can only be as strong as the weakest link.

Not only that, but there are several things to factor in, too:

#1 - In Cutscenes, processing power is at a minimum. None of the characters have to react to physics or worry about collisions or anything; they simply animate as they are told to animate. Therefore, showing 4-5 different characters on screen at once in this sort of environment requires less power than, say, actual gameplay featuring all these.

#2 - Heroes uses Renderware, which is a pile of shit, from what I hear. I mean, look how horrible GTA looks. Renderware was invented in like, 1993 or 1995 - who knows if it's even been updated since then. The whole "Ease of use for porting" probably creates a lot of these "the graphics are shit" woes.

I liked in SA2 how when you press jump whilst in the middle of a somersault Sonic does this cool spinny thing whilst jumping

That's practially the only way I DO jump in SA2, because it's such a neat effect :P

[Green Gibbon!]

Speaking of cutscenes, that's another thing about Sonic Heroes... unlike SA2, there are none with the in-game models. It's all FMV.

Plus, a detailed model could potentially look worse the farther it gets from the camera, especially on a game console (and particularly the PS2). Details have a habit of turning into jagged static when they step out of range.


This whole argument is moot anyway, because Sonic Heroes is horseshit one way or the other.

[G.Silver]

A little update:



Still got some tweaking here and there, either the arms are too long, the legs are too short, something like that, and his ears still stick out to the sides. Right now I'm still fiddling with the eyes, trying to make a pupil that can comfortably move around his eyes without clipping into the whites and disappearing. Looking back at the SA2 model (the pupils don't move in Sonic Heroes), I wonder if they didn't just cut the whites of his eyes out of one big circle (this would allow for perfect rotation along the outside of the eye), I'm gonna have to try that.

[Segata]

I see he is not anatomically correct.

[Spazz]

Seems like the hands/fingers need some adjusting. I think the length of the legs are fine, but it's the arms that seem too long.
Looks like the classic style so far,
but you're getting there, keep trying.

[Popcorn]

I think you need to make his waist a little slimmer, his legs a little longer and the, ah, gap between his legs smaller. His legs need to be closer together. They don't kind of 'stick out' of his torso so much-- they more kind of follow off it. That little spike he has on his ass kind of follows round in a curve, splits into two and turns into his legs.

[-wyvern]

I think the arms will look fine as they are - they will look shorter when he bends them, anyway. Ditto legs. So far, so good.

[j-man]

I liked in SA2 how when you press jump whilst in the middle of a somersault Sonic does this cool spinny thing whilst jumping.

You're, like, the only person I know that actually noticed that backflip thing he does. It's awesome. :)

[Locit]

Right now they kind of look like that little extra cg in the movie theatre of Sonic Jam. You know the one, He runs through Green Hill Zone and then 'outwits' Eggman (then still called Robotnik) by running fast.

[Esrever]

Silv, as I recall, the way they avoided having Sonic's pupils clip into the whites was just by having them kind of far away from the whites. Sometimes, when you viewed him from the side, his pupils actually looked like they were floating way in front of him rather than being attached to his face.

I liked the athleticism of the SA2 model because it was generally so well done, but there was just something... off... about how he looked when he ran. Gangly? Wobbly? I don't know. But even though the SA1 model may have been kind of stocky and low-poly, I really liked the way he sort of bounded when he ran. That was slick.

[G.Silver]

Pop -- I was actually a bit concerned that his legs were too close together, but I'll give that change a try. I was pretty much planning on redoing the leg attachment area completely anyway (possibly doing the legs as seperate "objects") as they won't deform well the way they are now anyway. But I don't think you're gonna be happy with whatever I end up with unless it's totally based off the SA2 model, am I right? :D

Sometimes, when you viewed him from the side, his pupils actually looked like they were floating way in front of him rather than being attached to his face.

Yeah, I'll be using that trick no matter how smoothly I can get it to work, but as it is the eyes are just further away than I want them to be.. It doesn't really matter obviously, it's not for a game and if I want to make still shots that look nice I can always just move the eyes wherever I want regardless of the bones underneath.. just a matter of personal satisfaction I guess.

Once again, thanks for the input from everybody.

[Light Speed]

I noticed his running in SA2 also. He looked like he was waddling really fast.

Also that flip thing in SA2 kicked ass. He kinda did it after a successful homing attack as an attempt to give youi more time before doing the next homing attack.

[Popcorn]

Yeah, Sonic's 'building up momentum' animation in SA2 wasn't perfect, but I adored his full-speed thing. I actually thought the way he hopped in SA1 was kinda stupid.

Pop -- I was actually a bit concerned that his legs were too close together, but I'll give that change a try. I was pretty much planning on redoing the leg attachment area completely anyway (possibly doing the legs as seperate "objects") as they won't deform well the way they are now anyway.

Right now, IMO, he seems to have the body of a small Ethopian child-- thin limbs and swollen stomach. It's kind of creepy. Just slim him down a bit. SA2 or otherwise, Sonic's always been a collection of curved lines-- what you have now is perhaps a bit too much like a lump of dough with sticks in it.

But I don't think you're gonna be happy with whatever I end up with unless it's totally based off the SA2 model, am I right? :D

Well, the SA2 Sonic is my preferred incarnation, but what the fuck do I know? I said Sonic Heroes was gonna suck.

[Zeta]

Well, the SA2 Sonic is my preferred incarnation, but what the fuck do I know? I said Sonic Heroes was gonna suck.

Well, you were wrong. It didn't suck. It blowed.

[gr4yJ4Y]

Have any of you guys played Sonic Adventure 2 lately? Its models have such lower poly counts than Sonic Heroes. Or at least they touched them up with lighting effects or something. The animations for SA2 were sweet for Sonic, but yeah there was that something that seemed a little "off" about the way he runs. I never really noticed or minded the "bobbing" of Sonic in SA. For whatever reason, Big's character model seems to have aged the fastest. I freaked out at how bad it looked in the character select screen the other day.

And in SA2 is it just me or do the way the mouths move when characters speak remind anyone of Donkey Kong 64, or is that just me?

[Delphine]

Well, the SA2 Sonic is my preferred incarnation, but what the fuck do I know? I said Sonic Heroes was gonna suck.

Yeah, you did, didn't you? Guess you proved us wrong and al--

Wait.

WAIT.

You <i><b>jinxed it!!!</b></i>

[Brazillian Cara]

IT JUST COULD BE YOU!!!
Oh wait. I have'nt played it yet. And you all know my opinion about Sonic Heroes.