Sonic Unleashed?

[Locit]

Really? I've found Ratchet and Clank's rail gameplay to be very, very dull. Grinding feels like a scripted event, where in SA2 you can control speed and balance, if somewhat clumsily, to create a truly fun experience. I'm pretty much in favor of Sonic-style grinding with the limitations that CP specified.

Sonic rail grinding had countless pit deaths, terrible controls that killed you at random and typically boring layouts. Ratchet and Clank's grinding has none of those things, shows off the games' levels pretty nicely, and actually has some fun (if basic) puzzles thrown in if my experiences with Quest for Booty are any indication. Maybe the rest of the series' grinding is completely sub-par, but QfB has some really fun segments where the only reason you'll die is if you're not paying attention. They only thing they really lack is a sense of speed, and I don't really expect that from a R&C game. It wouldn't be hard to stretch R&C rail segments out, kick up the mph and have a genuinely enjoyable Sonic grinding experience with basically the same assets.

Grinding actually has a place in games, and R&C gets it right: you can show off really impressive vistas and other cool looking stuff while still granting the player a decent level of control over the character onscreen. Conceptually they're much less obtrusive than thge "run toward the camera and hit a bunch of speed pads/have the falling whatever adjust to your speed" segments prevalent in the Adventure games. I don't really give a damn if I don't have to stick a landing exactly when switching rails, because I had more fun not falling to my death in QfB than I ever did swearing at the screen in SA2 during rail segments.

[Senbei]

Haven't played QfB, only the first game and a bit of ToD, so maybe things have changed since my experiences.

They only thing they really lack is a sense of speed, and I don't really expect that from a R&C game.

My problem with R&C rails isn't so much a lack of speed as a lack of control. You're not allowed to control your speed or the speed of your jump as in the more free environment of SA2. You're not allowed to make your own mistakes; you are only allowed to do exactly what the level designers want you to do. It's little more an a QTE.

I'd actually suggest that grinding serves less of a purpose and is less satisfying in R&C than it does and is in SA2. R&C rails are scripted experiences designed to easily clean up the level or change the pace of a level. They are a platforming gimmick in the most definitive way. What I admire about SA2's rails (and I should note that this applies only to SA2's mechanics, since I haven't played anything post-Shadow and Heroes was as gimmicky as R&C) is that they are an element that play to Sonic's gameplay as naturally as loop-de-loops: They are a natural speed-booster, especially coupled with the all-important and ever controversial jump dash. In fact, I see the ol' "jump dash onto a grind rail" as 3D Sonic's answer to the 2D "spin dash through the loop-de-loop." Of course the bottomless pit sections are terrible, and of course the grinding needed some cleaning up (which hasn't happened in six years...), but it really is an appropriate and finely integrated piece of Sonic gameplay and deserves to be recognized as such.

Which is not to say that grinding should be abused. Rails should almost always be optional so explorers like Joey can play the way they want. The point is that they enhance gameplay and don't serve as the easy gimmick for lazy designers.

[Segaholic2]

It's not like you have much control on rails to begin with. From what I've seen, giving the player less control on rails works better than giving the player more control. What's the point of speeding up or slowing down when it doesn't affect your direction or outcome anyway? Yes, I know SA2 had certain paths you could only take if you grinded up a rail with enough speed, but everything else about the system (especially switching) was so horribly broken nothing could have saved it.

[Senbei]

I don't think it was horribly broken. It definitely needed work, but it wasn't fundamentally flawed.

Lemme define how I see R&C and SA2's rails. R&C's are essentially QTE. Grinding is a gimmick that could easily be replaced with any other gimmick -- hang glider, speed boat, motorcycle. It's a diversion from the standard gameplay and does nothing to compliment it or Ratchet as a character.

Grinding is nothing but a compliment to Sonic for reasons I've already specified. Rails are also a deeply integrated part of the environment, not just this one separate section like in R&C's levels. They're a natural element that the player can truly interact with. Yes, PIT DEATHS, I know, but that’s why I’d love to see a new Sonic game where they improved on the grinding from SA2. What's a little upsetting is that, while I can't see that happening any time soon, I can see Sonic rails becoming more like R&C's. It totally fits the QTE nature of Unleashed, anyway.

[Isuka]

Aside from rails-only stages, they could be used to access the "higher, more difficult and rewarding" path, so if you miss a rail or get hit by an enemy or obstacle, you'd just fall to the "lower, easier and crappier" path.
Using them just to connect two separate chunks of land with nothing around or below them is dull, unimaginative and potentially frustrating.

[Locit]

Which is not to say that grinding should be abused. Rails should almost always be optional so explorers like Joey can play the way they want. The point is that they enhance gameplay and don't serve as the easy gimmick for lazy designers.

Nothing about QfB seemed lazy or gimmicky, and I think it's safe to say the same goes for ToD, though I've only played the demo. Rails were, in fact, quite optional in a lot of places- after, say, climbing up and repairing a giant wind turbine, I could go back the way I came or I could grind to a new area and explore an alternate route back to the main hub of the island where much of the game takes place. But why would I? I came that way, and these rails probably lead to new and interesting places (and more bolts for upgrading my weapons!). I didn't question their presence any more than I did those of SA2, especially the ones floating out in space for no particular reason. Heck, compared to the final stages in SA2 they were practically subtle in their placement. They were well integrated, and when they were necessary for advancement they were always fun.

Lemme define how I see R&C and SA2's rails. R&C's are essentially QTE. Grinding is a gimmick that could easily be replaced with any other gimmick -- hang glider, speed boat, motorcycle. It's a diversion from the standard gameplay and does nothing to compliment it or Ratchet as a character.

It's a gameplay mechanic, much like, say, anti-gravity walls. Mario Galaxy had them all over the place in the toy galaxy, and QfB has them as well. It's not like they contribute to either character's, uh, character in any way. Sometimes it's just fun to walk along walls as if they were an ordinary stretch of sidewalk, or grind along pipes for the hell of it. If it's done well I honestly don't care how great it could be elsewhere because it contributes to this or that series' modus operandi. Based on what I played in QfB, R&C took grinding and made it its own. If that take on the mechanic makes its way back into the tired and threadbare Sonic series, all the better.

What's the point of speeding up or slowing down when it doesn't affect your direction or outcome anyway?

That's what I'd like to know!

[DackAttac]

What Locit said. They're meant to be taken in as fun, not analyzed based on how much effort it takes to either implement or withstand. That's like critiquing a song for using too few chords. Unfortunately, if we're having this conversation instead of saying "Holy shit, that was awesome," they probably failed in the "fun" department.

[FlashTHD]

"higher, more difficult and rewarding" path, so if you miss a rail or get hit by an enemy or obstacle, you'd just fall to the "lower, easier and crappier" path.

I've heard this before and doesn't anyone realize how stupid it sounds? Why, praytell, should every level be strictly made up of "high route hard/good, low route easy/sucks", unless this is some sort of intentionally lame generalization?

What's the point of speeding up or slowing down when it doesn't affect your direction or outcome anyway?

Because in a typical Sonic game, if every rail made you go the exact same speed no matter how much faster or slower you were going when you got on it, that would be even more unnecessary confusion/irritation and make the rails more mundane and useless yet. Entirely different things (and/or pacing) are expected of Ratchet than Sonic...amirite? I hope, but I steer clear of the Ratchet series.

Unfortunately, if we're having this conversation instead of saying "Holy shit, that was awesome," they probably failed in the "fun" department.

I think not. Try going to PPA and telling him "holy shit, Sonic 3 & Knuckles was awesome!"

[P.P.A.]

"higher, more difficult and rewarding" path, so if you miss a rail or get hit by an enemy or obstacle, you'd just fall to the "lower, easier and crappier" path.

I've heard this before and doesn't anyone realize how stupid it sounds? Why, praytell, should every level be strictly made up of "high route hard/good, low route easy/sucks", unless this is some sort of intentionally lame generalization?

What's the point of speeding up or slowing down when it doesn't affect your direction or outcome anyway?

Because in a typical Sonic game, if every rail made you go the exact same speed no matter how much faster or slower you were going when you got on it, that would be even more unnecessary confusion/irritation and make the rails more mundane and useless yet. Entirely different things (and/or pacing) are expected of Ratchet than Sonic...amirite? I hope, but I steer clear of the Ratchet series.

Unfortunately, if we're having this conversation instead of saying "Holy shit, that was awesome," they probably failed in the "fun" department.

I think not. Try going to PPA and telling him "holy shit, Sonic 3 & Knuckles was awesome!"

But the levels were too long to be fun and S3's stages bar Hydrocity Zone sucked and Knuckles and Tails are stupid and the stages are too linear and there's too few replay value and the graphics weren't very inspired and it set the realistically styled and story-laden path for future games and !!!!

>_>
On the topic of rails, I liked them in SA2 but basically nowhere else. In SA2 they seemed well-integrated into the environments, not as alienated as in the following games. (And rails in space make sense when there's perfectly normal gravity and no need to breathe up there as well.) They also actually functioned well, switching mostly worked and you actually had control over your speed - unlike in Heroes or Shadow where you just keep mashing the X button to gain speed for no apparent reason or Sonic 06 where you have a constant acceleration anyway, even uphill! (Protip: In SA2, leaving the stick alone and just smashing the B button in corners does a much better job than trying to lean forwards and backwards properly.) Overall I don't really care about them. If they make them as well-integrated as in SA2 I'm fine with them, if they're just used subtly in a few places and not as major parts of a stage I won't mind them and if they'd disappear altogether I wouldn't miss them. But don't ever remind me of Heroes' Rail Canyon or what that awful excuse for a level was called!

[Senbei]

Unfortunately, if we're having this conversation instead of saying "Holy shit, that was awesome," they probably failed in the "fun" department.

Yeah, I guess my position boils down to the fact that I like Sonic games, but don't like R&C. Which is too bad since only one of those titles has any quality control.

[FlashTHD]

Unfortunately, if we're having this conversation instead of saying "Holy shit, that was awesome," they probably failed in the "fun" department.

I think not. Try going to PPA and telling him "holy shit, Sonic 3 & Knuckles was awesome!"

But the levels were too long to be fun and S3's stages bar Hydrocity Zone sucked and Knuckles and Tails are stupid and the stages are too linear and there's too few replay value and the graphics weren't very inspired and it set the realistically styled and story-laden path for future games and !!!!

Who has mad cow disease again, Ritz?

[Frieza2000]

I've heard this before and doesn't anyone realize how stupid it sounds? Why, praytell, should every level be strictly made up of "high route hard/good, low route easy/sucks", unless this is some sort of intentionally lame generalization?

Gravity. When you fail at a platforming feat you tend to fall as a result, thus making the high road the one requiring more skill. I'm sure nobody is saying every level should be like that; early Sonic titles had a share of levels that weren't tiered, like Labyrinth and Marble Garden, where alternate routes were just different section of the level. It's a pretty good system though. People who like speed can stay the lower course where they won't have to deal with difficult platforming, and explorers can have challenging places to reach.

[DackAttac]

Exactly. Instead of missing a jump, plunging into an abyss, and having to try it again, you just miss the jump, and now have a less rewarding route bonus-wise (although extra lives and rings don't mean nearly as much as they did back in 1991). It's a cliché now, but high risk, high reward.

Although one thing now that the games are in 3D is that you can have a perilous straightaway path underneath a twisty maze-like path and actually have variable lengths... God, wouldn't it be awesome if Sonic Team thought about shit like this instead of what quarter's figures their game has to save?

Answer: The next Q4. Always, always, always.

[K2J]

New Interview. Day/Night ratio is now 60/40, Sky Chase minigame confirmed.

[FlashTHD]

Yawn. All the typical BS:

- Picking new numbers out of thin air for things
- Yay yay praise for all the high speeds
- Weird excuse(s) named as motivation to play other half of gameplay
- Buzzwords. Plenty of the buzzwords
* Optional new tidbit of information that may not have been confirmed/widely known already

Might* have been my paying too much attention to Blue Oyster Cult's "Black Blade" in the headphones at the time, but Hashimoto's last paragraph was bewildering nonsense to me. Say huh?

[Crazy Penguin]

Best Sonic game since Sonic Adventure, eh? We'll see. It's incredibly frustrating that they haven't progressed from that first impressive stepping stone of a 3D Sonic game.

[FlashTHD]

China trailer, and it delivers a sucker punch straight out of the gate: E10+ rating...Animated Blood? In'nt that charming...

Also behold the Sonic Drift sending him straight into the path of a rock face, the crappy looking jumping in the rotating wheels sections, and Weresonic's bizzare brawling mechanics - the pace is strange and I still can't tell from watching how it's supposed to work.

[Radrappy]

guys it's time to come to grips with the fact that this game is going to be absolute dog shit.

[P.P.A.]

I'm going to buy it anyway, because the music in that trailer is awesome. Erhu in Sonic music? Soundtrack (according to Tweaker) composed by Nanba and Ohtani? That's enough reason to buy it. The daytime stage didn't look that bad either, compared to things like Heroes, Secret Rings or Shadow. But then, Werewolf.
Though considering everything it might be easier to just wait for a soundtrack and get that instead. >_>

[Rob-Bert]

Werehog looks like he has a shitload of moves. Didn't expect that. I do expect that there won't be enough types of enemies to justify the inclusion of the moves.

[gr4yJ4Y]

Gametrailers has the same video in higher quality.

The jumping sections don't look as good as the did at first. I love how much quicker the homing attack is than in previous games (especially 2k6). There's plenty of in-level cutscenes though. As a whole this doesn't change my opinion of the game at all. I'm still in the "cautious optimism" area.

[DackAttac]

That circlular-rotating platform, albiet being over a bottomless pit, is the E3 footage where I actually began stocking hope for this game. Don't really see where I'm supposed to drop it. OK, that boss looked shitty, but when you get right down to it,

And I'm OK with an E10, even for blood, since that's what Superstars Tennis got. Some green zombie-related goop. Whoopdy fucking doo. This just falls under the werehog-related dickery.

[Dasher]

Eww, Werehog howls like an effing wolf >_> wolves are sooo overrated.

Was the voice in English or Japanese I couldn't understand his gibberish.

But yeah, like P.P.A said, I like the music and the day stage looks interesting, I just want to see the NY stage.

Funny how a China-based stage was in the concept of the original Sonic the Hedgehog.

PS. GIB THE RED TORNADO BACK! PLOX!

[Ngangbius]

And I'm OK with an E10, even for blood, since that's what Superstars Tennis got. Some green zombie-related goop. Whoopdy fucking doo. This just falls under the werehog-related dickery.

Superstars Tennis also isn't a platformer made by Sonic Team. The concern here is that the few last times we got E10-rated Sonic games made from Sonic Team, they took the franchise a bit too seriously an we all know how that turned out. Xp

In other news, Sonic Team recently had a conference showcasing the Hedgehog Engine. Here are some of the more notable pictures from it:







Notice the human npc is actually cartoony and fits more with Sonic universe than the life-less realdolls from Sonic 2K6. Also flying-chihuahua thing is still real.

[P.P.A.]

I like the design for the human, but the flying chihuahua is even uglier than I expected. And I don't even want to hear his voice. in b4 Cream+Tails+Omochao