Sonic level design, a discussion.

[Wooduck51]

When I first joined the GHZ proper I had wanted to earn the respect of the "old guard" (or at least not appear as annoying new meat) by trying to start interesting discussions concerning different aspects of sonic games in general; however after making it through my first few months with ought unduly irritating anyone, I have, for the last year or so, let my posting devolve into doing my best to defend what shreds of honor Shadow has left and maybe commenting on how unusual really old pasta looks. This was not however my intention, and if only for a moment I have decided to attempt to grab hold once again of my original goal: having a pleasant discussion concerning elements of sonic the hedgehog.

So here we frickin go.

The biggest gripe, amongst poor controls and bad writing about sonic games is the level design; those of you here with great knowledge concerning theses things cite the over use of bottomless pits and lack of diverse routes as the main problems, followed by lack of originality in design in general. The first two issues are those that are the most pressing, so that is what I will try to focus on.
When going back and looking at the level designs from Sonic 1,2 and 3&knuckles (aside from the fact that the original games rarely had more than 5 death pits) it becomes apparent that for the most part the design of the levels follows a two part pattern of three paths, normal, high, and low, (which is expanded further in 3&knuckles to include normal, high, low, tails only high and knuckles only low), speed/platforming combination and/or distinct platforming and speed sections.

Examples:


http://www.soniccenter.org/maps/s3z12.png


This allowed for using the same level for each character while avoiding a redundant experience. However despite the varying routes available, almost all of the paths you choose will still end in the same place, (the exceptions to this are a few levels in 3&k where Knuckles goal is entirely separate from Sonic and Tails) this, when looked at in retrospect seems to be a foreshadowing of the current tendency towards "one pre-ordained path with minor detours available and bottomless pits" (also known as laziness) which seems to dominate the games currently:




So what is the answer? opinion is not completely united, and seems to fall into two camps: Free roaming and an overhauled linear stage that goes back to the original level design; each design has its pros but which would be better?

Free roaming:

The free roaming stage would be a great departure from tried and true Sonic formula, without the set up of point A to point B gameplay the goals that have long dominated Sonic levels (get the emerald, break the pod, get to the ship) would have to be overhauled or changed entirely. In a free roaming level akin to the one in the above figure, how do you retain the sense of speed that is inseparable from Sonic? Having a free roaming level seems to lend itself to "collect these" "chase this" or "do this area of intricate platform jumping" (which has its place in sonic games, just not as the focus, Mario this is not) In order for those goals to retain a flavor of Sonic, the "collect this" and "chase this" goal would have to be implemented in such a way that it was very fluid thing, the levels would have to be designed to allow an uninterrupted acceleration of the good hedgehog without any rudely placed traps or enemies to interrupt, in essence a tamer mach speed experience in either a circular or oval level. This could also lead to free roaming unique goals, such as having to bring Sonic up to a certain speed before being able to advance; let us say something like a playable Sonic CD intro, once you are running fast enough sonic would be able to run up walls and mountains, making it so that you could place a goal at a great height somewhere in the level that would only be accessible once you gained enough speed to run up the surrounding terrain. However this is something that might sound good but be bad in execution; your thoughts?

Overhauled linear levels:

This one is less of a departure and more of a return to the "roots" of Sonic, you simply build a level with multiple and truly divergent paths without bottomless pits or only a few as in the original games. If implemented correctly a more linear level allows (in theory) faster areas of play while still allowing for the platforming element; even better it would be easy to design the levels with character specific paths. Sonic would most likely lay claim to the "normal" path, focused more on speed and smooth platforming, Tails would get the "High" path with more verical/platforming to take advantage of his flight, Knuckles would get the"low" path, rock smashing and gliding areas, something like pumpkin hill, and a fourth divergent path for Shadow (shaddup). Shadow has the unique power of chaos control and chaos spear, build a path for him that has puzzles that takes advantage of being able to slow down your surroundings and the power to hit far off enemies and objects with his spear, it does not have to be combat oriented, just take advantage of what makes Shadow different.
Now while I say that each character would have dominion over their particular "path" I do not mean that each character should be bound to their path only, much like Sonic 3&Knuckles each character should have limited access to each others paths. Once again how would this theory work, your thoughts?

C' mon speak, draw little diagrams, which would you like to see implemented?

[Crazy Penguin]

The tried and tested high/medium/low paths could work almost as well in a 3D Sonic game as they did the 2D classics. The 2D games will always have the advantage though, because you are viewing Sonic's actions from the side, you're able to see what's above and below him. In the 3D Sonic games you view Sonic from behind and can only see what's immediately around him. You can't look directly above or below Sonic.

An advantage of 3D levels though is that the divergent paths needn't be parrallel you can send Sonic off to completely different places via branching pathways. They needn't even have to feed back into each other, there would be a much greater sense of freedom if each level had multiple exit points, which in turn lead into different follow-up levels. This would enhance the feeling of freedom that is key to the Sonic formula and offer greater replay value.

[Isuka]

Remember when Locit commented about how the old games had stages full of gizmos and gimmicks and all that? If not, here you are.
Combined with those elements, I see the stages coming to life in basically two other aspects; crossing-forking and a subtle sub-categorization of every stage in segments.

Crossing paths and forking is what most people seem to forget about Sonic games, with maybe the exceptions of the original and CD that don't cross paths as much as they backtrack. It's not Sonic's path, Tails' path, Knux's one blah blah, it's more like Sonic's set of paths, Tails' set and Knux's... OK, you can have Shadow's too if you want it that badly. As I remember, when the paths cross there isn't much that makes them different, but after running a while the segments mechanic kicks in.

In Flying Battery, for example, you have running segments, those vertical-tube thing ones, the external upper and lower deck ones, some parts that require precise timing when jumping to get across the moving platforms but you can just fly over them with Tails, and so on.
The important thing is not only the multiple paths, but the radical difference in segments. That also made the second stage of a game like Sparkster that much better than the others, true branching that feels different than the other sections.
In the 3D games it could work something like this. Remember the tornado section of Windy Valley and the rolling boulder of Lost World? How about getting one if you follow a path and the other if you follow another?

In respect to not being able to see what's below or above you in a 3D game, I may think of ways to solve this with some kind of dynamic, situational camera system, but you can play your other card; peripheric vision.
If you can't branch so easily the segments, try doing it to the sides with something that only a certain character can do, like Tails' dash rings or Knux's digging ability or Sonic's light dash, always keeping the pace of the game in mind. You can even turn them into secret passages if you don't put them in the wide open, but in an open area littered with obstacles in which you can take your time to look around with the camera and spot some dash ring that'll take you to a hidden, "easter egg" like segment of that zone.

[BlazeHedgehog]

One aspect people seem to neglect about Sonic 2k6, as the game is so shit, is that it actually features perhaps the best attempt at translating the alternate-route-heavy level design in to 3D. Most of the better levels in the game feature at least two or three ways of getting to the next major set piece.

Let's, for example, take Wave Ocean, the first level you play as Sonic. Wave Ocean features a number of small deviations - most notably alternate loops and things accessed by properly steering Sonic as he skims across the surface of the water. Jump to an alternate pathway right at the start and you bypass the entire first robot confrontation and get a big score bonus, to boot.

Not long after that you hit a section of beach where you grab on to a gymnastics bar. Execute it correctly and you take the upper pathway - fail, and you have to take the lower pathway. Both end up leading you to the checkpoint a little further in to the level, but it's two different ways to get there.

Right after that you have the option of either lightdashing through a huge shortcut right after the grind rail leading off the lighthouse or taking the long way that doubles back around. Directly after that, once again, you have the option of going high or low - jump right and you can light dash through a bonus ring up to the high path (that has you running vertically at a 90 degree angle across a wall) - miss and you have to follow the beach, which is infested with quite a number of robots.

Over half the levels in Sonic 2k6 feature multiple routes like this - with both small routes and larger ones (notably Dusty Desert, Tropical Jungle, and Flame Core). Honestly, if the rest of the game wasn't almost total garbage I think most people would agree this is some of the best, most open level design in a 3D Sonic game.

[Zeta]

So what is the answer? opinion is not completely united, and seems to fall into two camps: Free roaming and an overhauled linear stage that goes back to the original level design; each design has its pros but which would be better?

I think they both have their place, and that a game would ultimately benefit the most from a few impressive free-roaming stages (not adventure hubs mind you, but stages proper) and many smaller linear stages. Sort of like the balance Mario Galaxy got, but it'd work much better with Sonic and the series' constant alternation between speed and exploration, I think.

[Senbei]

Something to keep in mind is that pathes don't have to be restrained to "high, medium, low." Since we're in 3D, pathes can be placed on the sides of a standard, direct route. You can also loop around and go backwards for a spell, something that levels like Flying Battery took advantage of. Really, if you have a big enough area, you could have as many straightforward or intersecting pathes as you wanted. Take "Generic City Zone" for example -- you could have dozens of streets and alleys and bridges parallel to each other on the "medium" route, with an expanded area of rooftops above and a complex system of subway tunnels below. My point is that you can have as many pathes as you want; they don't have to be limited to one or two for each character.

Regarding free-roaming: using "Generic City" again, you should be able to move forwards or backwards on most if not all of these many pathes, offering that sense of exploration that we want, but there should still be a certain driving force urging you towards the end of the level. Maybe this could manifested by a grinding rail or a speed pad, but just because that urge to complete the level is there doesn't mean you have to listen to it! Exploration around the grind rail might lead to a savory reward. It could be as simple as a 1-UP or shield, but I think the most rewarding find is what it's always been: a new path you've never seen before. There was nothing more satisfying in the Genesis games than jumping onto a ledge you'd never tried to use and discovering that it lead to a whole new area!

[Wooduck51]

Heh, I forgot to mention a combination of the different levels, thank you for bringing that up.

Sorry for not expanding on the "three level" pattern, I was just using a basic example. However not mentioning it seems to be working fine for getting people to expound on the matter.

As far as the 2-d advantage, I would not mind seeing a 2-d Sonic game on a home console. Just think, a well made 2-d Sonic game that takes advantage of the newer hardware capabilities, fantastic hand drawn graphics mixed with the occasional special effects, very few bottomless pits, really good level design and the ability to collect the seven chaos emeralds and play as Super Sonic (and Knuckles/Tails/Shadow) before the end of the game, the thought makes me shiver.

[Zeta]

As far as the 2-d advantage, I would not mind seeing a 2-d Sonic game on a home console. Just think, a well made 2-d Sonic game that takes advantage of the newer hardware capabilities, fantastic hand drawn graphics mixed with the occasional special effects, very few bottomless pits, really good level design and the ability to collect the seven chaos emeralds and play as Super Sonic (and Knuckles/Tails/Shadow) before the end of the game, the thought makes me shiver.

Hand Drawn graphics are pretty much dead outside of the RPG genre, sadly.

[Senbei]

Sorry for not expanding on the "three level" pattern, I was just using a basic example. However not mentioning it seems to be working fine for getting people to expound on the matter.

Ha! I know what you mean.

[Locit]

Wow, I guess we're doing this.

I think they both have their place, and that a game would ultimately benefit the most from a few impressive free-roaming stages (not adventure hubs mind you, but stages proper) and many smaller linear stages. Sort of like the balance Mario Galaxy got, but it'd work much better with Sonic and the series' constant alternation between speed and exploration, I think.

It would be hard to implement exploration segments without dragging the flow of the level down. Hard, but not impossible. I think a large exploratory area with an optional fast track winding through it might work, but you'd have to make the distinction between the two options clear. Springboarding from what Crazy Penguin said, I think it'd be neat if exploring led you to a different route than the fast track. It might even give the player some control over the pacing of the game- fast tracks lead to fast tracks, while exploration areas lead to exploration areas. Or you could mix them up for good measure, but again you'd run the risk of breaking the player's flow.

Whatever the case, Sonic's speed needs to originate with the player, not speed pads placed all over the ground that take all control away and completely remove the connection that made running through loops in the Genesis games so fun. You could always jump out of a loop, whereas jumping in a 3D game's loops usually janked things up or sent you spiraling to a watery grave/bottomless pit. I think this design element in particular is one of the Adventure series' biggest failings.

[Locit]

Addendum: Bottomless pits aren't always bad! As long as controls and level design are really solid bottomless pits can serve to heighten the tension of a level. Sweet Sweet Galaxy is a good example that springs to mind from recent gaming memory, and the Lava Reef boss prologue serves as a good instance from classic Sonicdom.

[Hybrid]

I've always thought that a completely free-roaming Sonic game would be absolutely fantastic, if executed correctly. Of course, having one big area and saying "Explore that" isn't ideal for a franchise built on the notion of speed.

To best explain this free-roaming game as I see it, think Ocarina of Time's overworld. Then, replace every "dungeon" with an area built for forward-progression rather than exploring. That's the gist of what I want.

To give a more Sonic-y example, imagine a big city that you are free to roam. You can take any side street you want, you can use momentum to run up walls and reach secrets, etc. You're roaming this city, and then you turn down a particular street. Its a steep hill, and you run down it pretty fast. Suddenly you realize the area around you has changed from being completely free-roaming to a more obvious path that pushes you forwards. Then it becomes clear: You've seamlessly transferred into the City Escape level without even realizing it.

So basically, build an actual city around the level, and then let the player stumble upon the "traditional" segments simply by exploring the city. Sonic's abilities stay constant, but his environment subtly changes from one gameplay style to the next. City streets may be totally open everywhere else, but once you stumble onto the "level", it starts nudging you in the direction of your next goal. There can be alternate paths, but they still lead to the same place; Places where you could potentially leave the "level" unintentionally are blocked off (not by invisible walls) so once the player has started a level, they finish it.

Another good example I can think of is doing a Grand Canyon-style level. Since the world is open, you stumble upon the Canyon and see Eggman building a giant metal structure in the middle of it. You do some exploring and find a loop which, when taken at very high speeds, will launch you up onto the metal structure, and then the design of the structure starts pushing you along: Obvious forward paths, alternate routes ultimately lead to the same place, speed pads, scripted sequences (obviously the player should have control of how the scripted sequences play out, but that's a control issue, not a level design one), etc. If you fall off the structure, you end up back in the Canyon below. Depending on the likelihood of falling, the fall could either kill you and take you back to the last checkpoint (which would only appear in areas set up like proper Sonic levels), or it could simply drop you into the Canyon and make you work your way back up. This style of putting a Sonic level inside a free-roaming enviroment would work really well, in my opinion. You get the best of both worlds: The ability to dick around with Sonic's speed in an open environment (one of the major draws of SA1's Adventure Fields), and the flow-based Sonic gameplay we all love.

(Speaking of SA1, Emerald Coast is a perfect example of the level design merger I'm trying to explain. If the Emerald Coast level was built as part of the Station Square Adventure Field, that would mean no loading in between, but there would be definite shift in the level design without making the player feel like they've entered an entirely new area, but rather an extension of the area they were just exploring.)

[BlazeHedgehog]

I too think a free-roaming Sonic game would work, but for me, I always thought it would be better to keep the "action stage/adventure field" distinction, but just remove the titlecards/loading screens. Treat action stages more like "Roads" to another adventure field.

Let's say you're at Adventure Field: The Beach. You would have to go through Emerald Hill Zone to reach Adventure Field: Chemical Plant.



Adventure Fields would be slower, more exploration-based sections of the game whereas the "action stages" would be your typical balls-to-the-wall-fast sections. And, of course, for those who hate backtracking, you could always implement a Zelda-esque warp system later in the game.

[Zeta]

So basically the level layout from Jak and Daxter I, eh?

[BlazeHedgehog]

Hybird's, maybe, because to me, Jak & Daxter always felt more like:



Like you were just moving from hub to hub on a relatively linear pathway. Sort of like how in Mario 64 you'd get a key that'd move you to the next floor of the castle where a new set of levels would be.

Mine... is more like... Metroid, I guess? Metroid has long stretches of straightforward combat oriented stuff punctuated by a room or two that's really big with multiple doors and usually a puzzle of sorts.

[P.P.A.]

Before I join the debate, I'd like to ask if my estimations of the games' level designs are mostly correct (some games left out due to being too different or me not having played them):

Sonic 1: Rather linear and simple, one to two routes. SLZ and SBZ are more complex. Most are short in length.
Sonic 2: Usually 2-3 paths per level, CPZ is more complex. Levels get a bit longer than in Sonic 1, some unfair object/enemy placement.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Rather linear levels, different characters with different paths (usually 1-2) only they can access. Also extremely long stages.
Sonic CD: Very complex (some would say chaotic) levels with multiple crossing paths and secret rooms. Allows for a lot of freedom but all the levels are still rather short in length. Only 2 bottomless pits in the entire game (SS1 and MM3). This is my personal favourite (except for Wacky Workbench Zone 1 - oh how I hate this level).

Sonic 1: Very simple and linear.
Sonic 2:
Sonic & Tails: Extremely short and easy levels that however feature multiple routes. A bit like Sonic CD.
Sonic & Tails 2: Again in the vein of Sonic CD, with multiple crossing paths while still remaining rather short (yet longer and harder than Chaos).

Sonic R: Large, open courses with a lot of crossing paths and possible short cuts. Too bad it was just a racing game. D:

Sonic Adventure: Quite linear levels with a couple of short cuts and a few open areas, usually one route, once in a while there may be two. (Sonic)
Sonic Adventure 2: Very linear levels, very few alternate parts. Well at least they were fun.(Sonic/Shadow)

Sonic Pocket Adventure: Introducing the abuse of BOTTOMLESS PITS to the series, thank you Dimps. Otherwise stages of middle length and usually with two or more paths.

Sonic Heroes: Totally linear, except for the first two stages there is usually just one path for everyone.
Shadow the Hedgehog: Varying. Some linear levels (which sometimes split in multiple paths) and some free-roaming ones.

SONIC THE HEDGEHOG: Varying. Some levels are linear (yet often still sport rather open levels with different routes) and some feature free open areas. Levels are usually a mix of those elements. (Sonic)

Sonic Advance: Overall rather simple, some stages with just 1-2 routes, others were rather open. Middle length.
Sonic Advance 2: BOTTOMLESS PITS EVERYWHERE AHHH Fast, rather long stages with quite a few unfair layout parts. 1-3 different paths, Techno Base is more open.
Sonic Advance 3: Complex levels with a lot of crossing routes and less BOTTOMLESS PITS than in SAdv2, the stages are rather long.


Also: http://www.soniccenter.org/maps/s1z41.gif - Labyrinth 1 has a funny face in it!

[Senbei]

I keep forgetting about Sonic R. That's pretty much what I'd like to see expanded upon. There are pathes of rings that lead you in a rather straightforward direction towards the goal, but there's also plenty of space to explore and find new areas or pathes.

[Locit]

Sonic Pocket Adventure: Introducing the abuse of BOTTOMLESS PITS to the series, thank you Dimps.

I thought SPA was largely a portable version of Sonic 2 with some other levels mixed in.

[Wooduck51]

As far as levels go how about a spherical level? The sphere would have to be big enough to avoid the upside down camera that you encounter on the smaller worlds in Mario Galaxy (which in the slower paced world of Mario is not a problem), but if done correctly would allow for smoother and faster game-play because you would never have to deal with corners or walls. As I illustrated above you could have a free roaming area for you to explore, then you could move to a more linear level by building up a great amount of speed and triangle jumping between some mountains up to a "base". This is just a basic idea (and a poorly thought out post to boot) but how about it?

[Isuka]

... I think I'm gonna blow chunks.

Sonic Advance 3: Complex levels with a lot of crossing routes and less BOTTOMLESS PITS than in SAdv2, the stages are rather long.

You forgot "totally fucked up object placing and lack of anything even remotely resembling flow and/ or pace".

[Yami CJMErl]

Now that I think about it, I recall lurking around the CulT forums and seeing people thinking that a Sonic game using Galaxy's gravity system would be pretty interesting, if not fun.

And for some reason, I can't think "spherical level" and see that image without thinking "Sonic CD2: Return to the Little Planet".

[P.P.A.]

For the 2D levels I think Sonic CD reached a pinnacle. The zones were perfectly designed, huge, with lots of crossing paths, secret rooms and almost no bottomless pits (2 in the whole game). I don't recall any unfair places and each Round had its own unique level elements that made them very remarkable (except for WW's bouncing floor, which I hate). And most levels didn't spring you around at high speed unlike the newer 2D games. Which however did not mean you couldn't go fast - you could go pretty damn fast, but you needed actual skill for that. Knowledge of the level layout and the game's speed mechanics as well as quick reflexes were necessary to go below 30 seconds in every non-boss level (except for Tidal Tempest 2). I find this a lot more satisfying and motivating than today's high-speed orgies where there are dashpads, springs and whatnot ever everywhere that constantly rush you around. But I feel being that fast without doing anything to actually achieve that speed is no fun. Also the Advance/Rush stages often don't give you much of a choice about your pace. You're being flipped and shot around whether you want it or not, all the stages push the speed recklessly. Sonic CD's stages on the other hand you could play however you want. Find out the fastest routes and time attack them, or go slow explore them (for rings for example).
Although I doubt any Sonic game will ever be able to surpass Sonic CD, future 2D Sonic games should follow its formula. The branching, open and (if played right) fast levels are what made early Sonic games stand out - Aspect was already on the right way with Sonic Chaos and Triple Trouble (the latter would have been epic if it was on something with a higher screen resolution than the Game Gear). It would have been very interesting to see what they'd have done with the GBA's and DS' hardware capabilities.

As for the 3D games, I'd hold up Sonic R and Sonic 06 as examples of how good 3D Sonic stages should look like. While the latter still had some flaws (mysterious hedgehog-eating sand and shallow water than instantly kills you upon contact), it was a succeeded attempt at branching, open levels in realistic environments. And a great example of how different characters should be implemented. While all play the same levels, their unique abilities and only small changes in object and enemy placement totally changed the feel of them - but at the same time everyone had multiple ways of getting to the goal and wasn't limited to one character-specific route.
Sonic R was even better. It had totally open levels with countless routes and shortcuts and no bottomless pits. Near perfect, I would say. But it was a racing games with round and I'm not sure if such a layout is possible in an A-to-B platform game that needs more boundaries to the sides. Or does it? I'd really want Sonic R's course designer to lay his hands onto the next 3D Sonic game.

Adventure Fields being the exploration part of a game with linear action stages as well, I'm totally against that. I want freedom in the main stages as well and to be able to choose whether I go around sightseeing or dash through the level as fast as I can - or both. (Although Hybrid's idea, especially that example with the canyon base, sounded quite interesting.)
The concept of free-roaming levels might sound interesting, but since it has already been done in Sonic Jam's Sonic World (fun at first, but a pain to time attack) and some levels in Shadow (Mad Matrix or Central City for example) with no good results, I'm rather distanced from this concept.
Spherical worlds I could only imagine to be rather... irritating. I always get dizzy from playing Sonic 3 & Knuckles' special stages and didn't like those small round stars in Super Mario Galaxy either. But if it's done it really must be set on Little Planet. :p

I guess the best approach at future 3D Sonic levels is to keep improving on Sonic 06's stages while fixing other problems and giving the overall gameplay a complete overhaul (more momentum-based like the old games), but that's a different topic.

[P.P.A.]

Excuse the double post, but I realized I did not mention two other major factors of Sonic level design: The length and the speed.

I think Sonic 1, 2, and especially CD had about the optimal level length. Long enough to be entertaining, but short enough to not become tedious. And the different routes meant players who knew the stages could beat the level faster and stuff.
Sonic CD I'd like to mention probably did this the best, as all non-boss levels (but Tidal Tempest Zone 2) can be beaten in less than 30 seconds if you know the right routes and have mastered the game's physics, but at the same time are big and complex and allow for a lot of exploration if you want to rather go slowly. (The same could more or less be said about the other two games too, but their levels aren't as large.)
Then Sonic 3 & Knuckles came and introduced those long as fuck levels. Seriously, 5 minutes for a normal playthrough of a single act? That's far too long I'd say. Especially since there are almost no alternate routes you could take. And there are few too few checkpoints for stages of such a length.

Now into the 3D era, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did things mostly right. The levels were longer than in the old games but since they were 3D and only 1 Act per Zone in a way that was okay. They were fun to play and that's the most important thing.
Yes, fun to play. Unlike Sonic Heroes' levels which were unbearably long. A lot of them took up to 15 minutes to beat and due to the lack of any alternate routes you were always forced to go through all of their crap all the time, it was a pain. Shadow the Hedgehog also had quite lengthy and tedious levels and while a bit shorter than Heroes' they still often took 10 - 15 minutes to beat (often due to the stupid objectives).

Sonic 06 is an interesting one. While some levels also took up to 10 minutes at times, for me they never felt that long. I assume this is because most of them were split into smaller segments (each of which required yet another loading screen *cough*) that were all different from each other. Not only graphically and musically but also in terms of layout. It felt like if you were playing a couple of smaller stages rather than one huge one.
Let's take Sonic's Kingdom Valley as an example: The first area is a quite short and linear valley, and offers your usual mix of speed, platforming, and robot-smashing. Then the eagle flies you to the darker inner parts of the castle where you get to control Silver for a while (or if you're skilled use Sonic to get through the area). This is followed by a faster section involving a lot of homing attack chains and running along straights. Finally, the last part of the level is a mach-speed stage. This adds variety and is less tedious than having to play through a 15-minute level made of the same elements over and over again.

The Advance stages also got a bit long especially in the third incarnation but it was bearable and there were at least lots of different ways to get to the goal.
Also mentioned should be Sonic Chaos with stages that short you won't even notice them. They often less than 20 seconds on the first try.


About the speed and flow of the games, I noticed Sonic 3 & Knuckles rarely gives players the opportunity to set their pace. The stages dictate when the player must speed up or slow down for a platforming passage. Some segments push you with springs and boost pads whereas others force one to totally stop and concentrate on dangerous enemies/spikes/pits. Regarding the increasing freedom Sonic 1, 2, and CD gave the player with their different routes that would often lead to fast or slow areas so players could set their own pace, this is definitely a step back.
Unfortunately the 3D titles (SA1 a bit less than the others) followed S3K's formula, catapulting the player through high-speed areas with boost pads, fixed camera angles and the obligatory bottomless pits everywhere to keep you on track.
While (the generally slower) Sonic 06 also often required you to do the speed, robot destroying and (quite fun and refreshing) platforming parts, it did often offer an alternative way (for example in Dusty Desert, you can choose to run through the loops or cross the sand and run along the wall dodging enemies).

Advance 1 was rather slow, Advance 2 was ZOMG SPEED SPEED SPEED!!!!1!one and Advance 3, I agree with Isuka, was lacking any flow and felt... choppy.

I can only repeat my above statement that 2D stages should follow Sonic CD's formula and 3D games would be well off improving on Sonic 06's design ideas (while reimplementing old qualities). Though that is just my opinion.

[G.Silver]

Then Sonic 3 & Knuckles came and introduced those long as fuck levels. Seriously, 5 minutes for a normal playthrough of a single act? That's far too long I'd say. Especially since there are almost no alternate routes you could take.

I don't think that's really the case? S3K has a lot of little hidden areas, secret routes, and shortcuts, though I think the tradeoff of having such big levels is that all the routes become a little samey. If the experience is tedious, no matter where you go you're going to feel like it's all the same.

The stages dictate when the player must speed up or slow down for a platforming passage. Some segments push you with springs and boost pads whereas others force one to totally stop and concentrate on dangerous enemies/spikes/pits.

This is entirely the argument for "flow" that I've seen people talk about especially regarding S3K as a "good thing." I totally agree that I prefer the ability to set the pace myself, full on with the awareness that I will have to work harder to speed through the "speed" sections and I may very well risk running headlong into a wall of spikes when a dangerous section comes up. It's more thrilling and creates, I think, a more organic sense of flow when the player is left to regulate it. But there's a lot of people who don't go for that at all, and that's exactly why Sonic CD especially is labeled as having haphazard levels that don't appear to have been well-planned. You just can't please everyone!

[FlashTHD]

I don't think that's really the case? S3K has a lot of little hidden areas, secret routes, and shortcuts, though I think the tradeoff of having such big levels is that all the routes become a little samey. If the experience is tedious, no matter where you go you're going to feel like it's all the same.

Sooo...are you saying S3&K had that problem? PPA is completely wrong tho, take different routes more man.

This is entirely the argument for "flow" that I've seen people talk about especially regarding S3K as a "good thing." I totally agree that I prefer the ability to set the pace myself, full on with the awareness that I will have to work harder to speed through the "speed" sections and I may very well risk running headlong into a wall of spikes when a dangerous section comes up. It's more thrilling and creates, I think, a more organic sense of flow when the player is left to regulate it. But there's a lot of people who don't go for that at all, and that's exactly why Sonic CD especially is labeled as having haphazard levels that don't appear to have been well-planned. You just can't please everyone!

Mostly in agreement, up to the CD part. Even I can tell you CD's layouts feel a bit scattershot.

Unlike Sonic Heroes' levels which were unbearably long. A lot of them took up to 15 minutes to beat and due to the lack of any alternate routes you were always forced to go through all of their crap all the time, it was a pain. Shadow the Hedgehog also had quite lengthy and tedious levels and while a bit shorter than Heroes' they still often took 10 - 15 minutes to beat (often due to the stupid objectives).

Most stages in Heroes, Team Dark extra missions notwithstanding, only take minutes in double digits to clear if you're absolutely awful. Same for Shadow; there are some that push it (6, 7 mins) but just one that can easily go over the 10 mark (Mad Matrix's bomb-hunting horrorfest).

Furthermore you speak of lots of variety forgiving the level lengths of 06; I dare you to even try defending Silver's final two stages, which are nigh-on impossible to clear in under 10 mins. Actually, everyone's later levels drag, even if they don't take that excruciatingly long. (But Sonic's Kingdom Valley I can live with, as it's one of the only fun places to play in the entire thing.)