NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

[Zeta]

Well I got the game and finished Will's story. I really don't have any complaints, it's exactly what I was expecting. 90% of the cutscenes were totally superfluous, that's all. The voice acting was actually decent, even if the choice for NiGHT's voice actor was totally inappropriate (I know this sounds weird, but I always pictured NiGHT's voice as sounding like Richard Horovitz). And I WAS expecting a TON of crappy onfoot missions, because everyone had been exaggerating that they were like all over the game. Want to know how many there are in the entire game? 2. 2 Fucking on Foot Missions out of 32. What the fuck, people? Everyone made it sound like it was going to be a constant stream of crappy platforming. Instead it was about a 3-minute long puzzle sequence that was fairly forgettable, but wasn't totally horrible.

There should have been an Ideya Palace mission on each level to go along with the racing one, but I really can't find anymore fault with this game than I did the first. And personally, Delight City is my favorite stage so far out of all 14 NiGHTs stages.

As for graphics, the game looks fantastic in motion, crap when you're toddling about on the ground. And unless you spend a ton of time in the MyDream minigame, you're not going to be on the ground a lot. The missions for each level usually consist of a race, follow the links, kill a certain number of nightmares, some sort of vehicle sequence and a boss.

The game isn't LAAAAME. It's pretty good but not fantastic. Which is exactly what I thought of the first one.

And damn them for making the Dream Drops unlock something I actually want. Now I have to get them all.

[Mep]

Actually theres 3 on-foot missions, and Delight City is my favorite too.

After finishing the whole game, I find that my review is kind of wrong. Not that its not still a mediocre sequel, but for different reasons. I found myself liking the visuals and music more than I expected, and the story isn't that unbearable. Gameplay still isn't that great though, not as pick-up-and-play as Iizuka thought it would be.

EDIT: Correction, 4 on-foot missions... Helen has 3.

[Zeta]

I was just tickled to learn that the unlockables are Claris, Elliot, and the first game's soundtrack, though I wonder which old song's stage will go over which new one's.

Also, MyDream is really weird. Those Pians are up to some weird crap in there. Aside from the trophy you get for beating each boss. They're building slides and teevees and radios and shit and having sex like bunnies. It's a little creepy.

[Mep]

Well sorry to disappoint you, but I achieved all A-rank and it seems all I can do is listen to the songs in the sound library. It doesn't replace any of the music on any levels.

My Dream is really starting to suck for me. I thought it would be cool to watch it grow, but its really just an interactive trophy garden. Those Pians multiply like crazy, and die off just as fast too. I even saw one have a child, and then the child immediately mated with its parent. It seems impossible to go over 80 too, so I don't know how much this garden can grow. Right now its just a bunch of hills and lakes, filled with cacti, musical notes, and aquatic bubbles. All items just pop up after I beat a level. Theres also supposed to be some sort of festival the first of every month, but I've been too lazy to check that out.

[Isuka]

The mating part sounds both disgusting and hilarious.

So, anything on the Forecast Channel compatibility?

[Kogen]

What are you talking about when you say there are events every first of the month? How can you be too lazy to check that out when it hasn't happened yet?

Knowing that the game, in reality, isn't filled with kid platforming makes it seem a lot more interesting. I'm surprised too that anyone actually moaned on about something so minor. Does Edios ram silver dollars up everyone's anus for them to say that(all the review sites went on about it as well)? Apparently there's minor bullshite like this in Mario Galexy too but no one bitches there because you have to love that by default. It just seems like an excuse to make the game seem worse when it's actually good.

[Zeta]

My Dream is really starting to suck for me. I thought it would be cool to watch it grow, but its really just an interactive trophy garden. Those Pians multiply like crazy, and die off just as fast too. I even saw one have a child, and then the child immediately mated with its parent. It seems impossible to go over 80 too, so I don't know how much this garden can grow. Right now its just a bunch of hills and lakes, filled with cacti, musical notes, and aquatic bubbles. All items just pop up after I beat a level. Theres also supposed to be some sort of festival the first of every month, but I've been too lazy to check that out.

Someone on GameFaqs said that MyDream changes according to what dream you get the Pians from. IE, getting a ton of them from Lost Park will turn it into a desert. And you can reset the whole garden by bringing in a bunch of Nightmarens and having them kill everyone and everything.

[Segaholic2]

The game looks like a first-gen PS2 game, the camera angle greatly hinders your field of vision and all the control methods are inferior to the Saturn analog pad. In short, while this game isn't as bad as it could have been, let there be no doubts that it is indeed LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME.

[Locit]

Knowing that the game, in reality, isn't filled with kid platforming makes it seem a lot more interesting. I'm surprised too that anyone actually moaned on about something so minor. Does Edios ram silver dollars up everyone's anus for them to say that(all the review sites went on about it as well)? Apparently there's minor bullshite like this in Mario Galexy too but no one bitches there because you have to love that by default. It just seems like an excuse to make the game seem worse when it's actually good.

I'm not sure where the Eidos thing is from, but the platforming segments, while mercifully low in number, still suck. If you're talking about the purple coin segments in Galaxy, there are some! You have to collect 100 purple coins. However, most of them are actually very fun, and the lame ones did receive about as much press as the platforming levels in JoD did. I didn't devote a lot of time to them in my own review, but the fact that they exist (and suck so heartily) in the sequel to a game whose main focus was flying is worth mentioning.

I still don't get the appeal of the My Dream feature, though. My 'pian garden is oh-so-varied in terrain and features, but it's still boring as hell.

And fuck dream drops, right in the ear. They're a terrible idea in a game where your platforming ability is even more limited that in was in the first by an all-powerful cadre of ever-multiplying creepy blobs that appear en masse when you stay a kid for too long.

[One Classy Bloke]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW

I can understand complaints over the large gameplay changes and crappy graphics, but seriously, whining about the controller is fucking stupid.

[Zeta]

Yeah, you have a control stick and one button. It's identical.

[Isuka]

Three buttons, the triggers worked differently than the main action button(s).
But I think holic is talking about this:

Speaking of directing our hero, there are four different options when it comes to controlling NiGHTS. Hopefully you’ve still got a Gamecube controller lying around, because it’s by far the most enjoyable. However, there’s a surprising problem with all the joystick options (Classic, GC, and nunchuck+wiimote combination): the eight corners into which the stick will traditionally slide when pressed in one of the cardinal (and semi-cardinal) directions.



While nothing will replicate exactly the Saturn 3D pad that came with the original NiGHTS, both the Xbox 360 and PS3 controllers would’ve been far better choices as far as traditional control is concerned. This is because they (like the 3D pad) have circular surroundings for their analog pads, which make it much easier to make exacting, on the fly directional changes mid-flight than the cornered Nintendo pads allow. This may sound like nitpicking, but in practice it makes a surprising amount of difference.

[Segaholic2]

Three buttons, the triggers worked differently than the main action button(s).
But I think holic is talking about this:

That is exactly what I'm talking about.

[One Classy Bloke]

Ah, I hadn't thought about that. Although I'm still a bit skeptical that it's that big of a deal, I won't know for sure until I get my hands on the game. In the meantime, I apologise.

[Mep]

The controller scheme was a big deal to me. It was really apparent when you play the damn link challenges. I would slip when using the GC controller because the rings were too curved, and the GC didn't allow that much accuracy. This just makes it more tedious to fly diagonally through a large set of rings, which makes up the majority of the courses.

What are you talking about when you say there are events every first of the month? How can you be too lazy to check that out when it hasn't happened yet?

Well I've just been too lazy to fast forward my clock to see if its anything that special.

[Locit]

You know, it's kind of funny that part of what makes JoD so damn mediocre is its insistence on aping Mario 64. Iizuka said in a recent 1up interview with James Meilke (one of my favourite games journalists) that the original NiGHTS wasn't meant to be in direct competition for 3D platforming center stage with Mario's N64 debut, but he was clearly affected by it- and possibly bitter about its comparative success! Nowhere is this more apparent than in the hub world. It's basically an extremely pared down, jankier version of the castle from Mario 64. Between this, the insistence on platforming segments and the practically plagiarized mission select screen, it would appear that he's stuck more in the past than he cares to admit.

[DackAttac]

a lot of shit about controllers

The instant I saw the octagon on the joystick on GameCube, I knew it'd fuck something, somewhere, up. I guess this was the inevitable victim, huh?

[Kogen]

So in reality, as this crap about Wii being the perfect fit for a free flying game is bullshite. A regular controller works better. Thanks Nintendo!

It's even more sad since the Gamecube controller is supposed to be a regular one.

[Zeta]

Oh, the Wii is probably the perfect console for a THREE-DEE free flying game - just not a two-dimensional one. It doesn't help that the pointer wasn't implemented well with NiGHTs at all. It's more like NiGHTs flies in the GENERAL DIRECTION of where you point instead of it being precise like in the Dragonball Z games. They basically seemed to only add pointer control as an afterthought. Probably because you can move your hand much faster than NiGHTs is supposed to move, so it feels like you're sort of pointing to a dog who toddles after the direction you point at, somewhat. I don't think the controller is at fault so much as the team's lack of desire to fully adapt the gameplay style to the controller, rather than just port the old moves and such over from the Saturn.

Basically, the only reason this game was put on the Wii is because:

1) Everyone assumed they'd revamp the flying system to fit in with motion controls, they didn't. You people would all be complaining about them changing the gameplay too much if they did, though, anyways.
2) The Wii is the most popular system right now.
3) Sonic and the Secret Rings did good on this console.

In other news, I completed the game with the secret endings and really enjoyed it. The only part where the octagon controller hindered me was Helen's Memory Forest concert stage, which required EXTREMELY precise flying. I really like the unlockable character art. I wish I had a poster of most of the Nightopias for my wall. Especially Delight City. It took me looking at the art to realize the giant playground juxtaposed next to the huge city is a metaphor for childhood and adulthood.

[Mep]

I don't really see whats wrong with the motion controls. They basically did adapt the gameplay to the controls by making the levels more linear. You won't need to do very many twists or dives, and its basically just straight or diagonal ring sets that you have to keep steady in. Most of the time the only reason to even go up or down is just to fly to the next set of rings. They were easier for me than the GC controls too since I didn't have to switch between two angles to just fly a straight line, once I find the right angle I just hold it there. When I had gotten used to it, it was the least frustrating way to play. Maybe not the most accurate, but its not much of a problem after playing for a while.

I also unlocked the dreamdrops prize just now, so I've been playing for way too long...

[Zeta]

About the dreamdrops prize: How do they look? Are they using the Saturn models, some sort of new redesigned models, a cleaned up version of the Saturn models, or Will and Helen with new heads?

[Locit]

1) Everyone assumed they'd revamp the flying system to fit in with motion controls, they didn't. You people would all be complaining about them changing the gameplay too much if they did, though, anyways.

Wait, what? Who is everyone in this scenario? And I don't care what developers do to my favourite franchise as long as it's still enjoyable in the end. Thanks for assuming I do, though!

[Zeta]

Fandom, in general, is extremely resistant to change. They generally want the same thing again and again, slightly changed. At least for books and television and such.

When it comes to videogames though, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you change something too much, everyone with exclaim http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... NowItSucks (Mario Sunshine). If they don't change it enough, it becomes a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... PackSequel (New Super Mario Bros). Either way, people will hate it. Every series eventually has this happen to it.

Even if it were turned into a fantastic 3D flight game using the Wiimote expertly, I bet you 50% of the people who played the old game would be complaining that it wasn't like the game they remembered. Because the only way this series got a sequel in the first place was by nostalgia alone. So you have a huge group of hardcore fans - half of whom have gigantic expectations, and the other half who are insulted at the very idea of a NiGHTS sequel because nobody could EVER top the majesty of the first game.

It doesn't come close to being a perfect game, but I really wonder how it would be recieved if it were a standalone game instead of a sequel to a game made 11-years ago that was a sleeper hit that developed a rabid fanbase that spread their love of the game by word of mouth enough that actually having played NiGHTS became some sort of online gamer status symbol. "Oh yeah, I played NiGHTS. It changed my fucking LIFE man." And then you have tons of people who I'm sure didn't even much care for the game, but are simply going along with the gaming culture by claiming that it was an orgasm on a Saturn disc. Or who convince themselves that it was the greatest thing since boobies and penises were invented. The same thing pretty much happened with Panzer Dragoon Saga.

[Mep]

About the dreamdrops prize: How do they look? Are they using the Saturn models, some sort of new redesigned models, a cleaned up version of the Saturn models, or Will and Helen with new heads?

Well, to me they look like cleaned up Saturn models. Not many design changes at all, but their models are definitely up to date. Their bodies are smoothed out. They still have the manga styled faces and hair. Their clothes are still the same so its different than Will and Helen, but they're a head taller to match the other children's animations. They look as if they were pulled right out of the original, except they no longer have blocks for limbs and such.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and their mute too. They also don't have the stupid Twin Seeds cutscene. Worth all 60 of those drops...

[Locit]

When it comes to videogames though, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you change something too much, everyone with exclaim http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... NowItSucks (Mario Sunshine). If they don't change it enough, it becomes a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... PackSequel (New Super Mario Bros). Either way, people will hate it. Every series eventually has this happen to it.

I think you're giving too much credence to extremists. Most people I know genuinely enjoyed both Sunshine and NSMB, but felt they were flawed for one reason or another. It's possible to find fault with new features even while enjoying them! I'd also offer Galaxy as proof that genuine and significant gameplay innovation can occur within the same series, even the one you're citing examples from.

The same thing pretty much happened with Panzer Dragoon Saga.

I'm going to point again to James Meilke's work at 1up, specifically his Panzer Dragoon feature. While we're at it here's his NiGHTS feature (specifically the retro/active on the original game). The fact that these features exist shows that there were enough people strongly affected by both NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon that some of them ended up as games journalists. In this case the same one! Statistically, at least, I think that says something.

Have you played Panzer Dragoon Saga, Zeta? I'd also be curious as to how you played the original NiGHTS. Did you do the bare minimum, or did you go for high scores and A ranks on every level?