How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love a Simulated World

aso · Post by **aso** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:48 am

Many games form a stagnant world to take place within. RPGs, as a particular example. Typically, the time of day is forever halted, save story or movie scenes where a change of color in the sky is needed for the assistance of dramatic impact. The people remain either forever frozen in stagnant positions or move about on random routes, haphazardly chattering, ad infinitium, the same few lines concerning the name of the town, or the name of the king, or so on. There is no reason to believe that some sort of economical infrastructure exists here; the people seem content to forever live an existence without a working economy of any sort, save perhaps some sort of invisible trade with the next town 2000 miles over, across the ocean.

And, honestly, I can see why. The existence of a living, breathing world is not neccesarily required; a backdrop is needed to place a story against, for sure, and the stagnant villages, towns, and time of day are simply needed to add to that image of a world. There really doesn't need to be anything further, and many RPGs firmly believed in this notion. Many (though not all) other types of games (just about any action game, several adventure titles, et al) follow on this, perhaps even creating less of a world than what is seen in many RPGs; only enough to, once again, form a backdrop to lean the narrative against.

Even still, there's nothing I enjoy quite as much as a world with something more in a video game.

Shenmue is the best example of this. The time of day naturally shifts. Weather comes and goes. The people move from one town to another, going to work, exploring the shops, and heading home once the time comes. Admittedly, quite a bit of the conversations are limited (most of the characters simply tell Ryo to leave them alone or talk to someone else) but those who speak a bit more than that talk about themselves, their interests, or how they relate to Ryo. It's all very compelling and definitely makes one care about the surrounding world quite a bit more.

The Dragon Quest titles, though not particularly exciting experiences in themselves, always had one feature that interested me enough to play until the massive grinding got the better of me: the time of day shifts. The time of day would gradually pass; once night had come, shopkeepers would close up, villagers would go home, and the like. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe the Breath of Fire series (or, at least, the first) used a similar system.

And, of course, there's Animal Crossing, perhaps the best example of a seperate 'real' world. The time of day shifts naturally, with the various animals moving about, talking with each other, exchanging clothes, burying random items, leaving trash, and going to bed when the time finally came. The 'stores' open and close at their respective times, and the weather, naturally, shifts with the seasons.

More recently, there's been Bumpy Trot, which seems to work on a similar scale to Shenmue; people go to and fro, wandering the streets in a somewhat more aimless fashion, but with a general purpose; businesses open and close; the speech of the people reflects their intent and actions; vehicles and buses come and go to various spots; and, of course, the time of day shifts, with different folk emerging and others going home.

These are only a few examples of titles that I find utilise this sort of thing to various extents. Can anyone else think of any other notable titles that uses this sort of system? I'm sure there's a few rather obvious ones that I somehow overlooked.

(in b4 tl;dr lol)

j-man · Post by **j-man** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:56 am

School project, huh?

jenkins · Post by **jenkins** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:12 am

But man, what a topic! I'm jealous.

Forza Johnman · Post by **Forza Johnman** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:26 am

Fable is a pretty good example of that sort of game. Even though there is no real time (You can't look at a watch and see its 10:47) Shops open and close, the sun rises and sets, Towns are busy during the day and empty in the night.

aso · Post by **aso** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:25 pm

j-man wrote:School project, huh?

Actually, that's not too far off. I've been bouncing around the idea of a formal paper in my head for ages, but I've never really gotten up the interest to do it. This topic is sort of like a very short, very rough draft.

Frieza2000 · Post by **Frieza2000** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:38 pm

The earliest example I can think of that did anything like that is Ultima 5. After 4, the Ultima series did a pretty good job of making Britannia feel like a real world with real people, albeit a world small enough to circle on foot in a day with a population under 200 (all of which could be freely slaughtered). OoT was my first experience with an attempt at a living world, though. It was novel, but too simple to really impress me.

aso · Post by **aso** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:53 pm

Forza Johnman wrote:Fable is a pretty good example of that sort of game. Even though there is no real time (You can't look at a watch and see its 10:47) Shops open and close, the sun rises and sets, Towns are busy during the day and empty in the night.

Frieza2000 wrote:The earliest example I can think of that did anything like that is Ultima 5. After 4, the Ultima series did a pretty good job of making Britannia feel like a real world with real people, albeit a world small enough to circle on foot in a day with a population under 200 (all of which could be freely slaughtered). OoT was my first experience with an attempt at a living world, though. It was novel, but too simple to really impress me.

Thanks for the additions.

I definitely agree with OoT. Though I enjoyed the day to night progression, it only actively worked on the overworld... locking the time of day in the towns gives the player plenty of time to move about and look into the hidden stuff only available at certain times, but ultimately took away from some of the immersion.

Arcade · Post by **Arcade** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:57 pm

For those who can only play sometimes is freaking irritating to see things in a game are affected by time while you arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t playing it. For me games can have time, but a time that stops when you arenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t playing it. Is nice to load a save and see everything as you left it, not to load a save and see animals killed by a week without food, your character almost dead and the plants dry as sand. I guess thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s why I hate most online games, I like to stop at any time and be able to continue a game I havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t played in months just as I left it.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:59 pm

aso wrote:I definitely agree with OoT. Though I enjoyed the day to night progression, it only actively worked on the overworld... locking the time of day in the towns gives the player plenty of time to move about and look into the hidden stuff only available at certain times, but ultimately took away from some of the immersion.

Have you played Majora's Mask?

MegaKitsune · Post by **MegaKitsune** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:41 am

LOL, my first experience with a "living world" was Harvest Moon on the SNES.

And, nobody mentioned the latter GTAs? It's not as complex as Shenmue, but the worlds of Vice City and San Andreas certainly give off a "living" vibe.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:21 pm

Bully, as well. Rockstar is very good at making simulated worlds. I'd actually like to see them try their hand at a fantasy game.

The T · Post by **The T** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:37 pm

Like, where you shoot up a bunch of elves and steal some dude's chariot?

MegaKitsune · Post by **MegaKitsune** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:12 pm

I would LOVE to see a GTA mod for Oblivion...

Post by **Delphine** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:19 pm

Zeta wrote:Bully, as well.

<a href="http://gaygamer.net/index.php?id=1609">Do you know about this?</a> It almost makes me want to get it.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:45 pm

Yes. I've done some virtual teenage boy seducing. I rented the game about three days ago and I'm just about finishing the main quest. It's quite a good game, actually, and the world has a lot more to do in it than you'd think. The way you can sneak around and find out about each individual character is also quite nice - every kid in school has their own name, dialogue, and behavior patterns. There's lots of cool costumes and crap like go-karts and such to unlock. It does seem like they could've done a bit more with the concept though - like placing it in a more varied location and giving you more control over the story and characters - like branching paths if you sided with only one particular clique.

Really the game is just a wish-fulfillment game for everyone who is having, or has had, a horrible time in highschool. You get to run around beating the crap out of people you don't like, make out with boys and/or girls in the hallway, become insanely popular, harass the mean teachers, and so on . . .

The humor is also quite good at times, too, with lots of hidden things you'd only find if you played it excessively. For instance, I was picking locks in the girl's locker room when I saw a cheerleader come in. So I ducked behind a locker and watched her make herself vomit in the toilet. One of the most shocking moments of the game for me, and amusing as well. The game is pretty plain about representing highschool as it really is, minus the drugs and sex. Except for the rather bizarre choice of including "Greaser" as one of the character types. The West Side Story/Grease/Outsiders throwbacks really seem out of place.

I would very much like to see a sequel with a new cast and more cliques. Mostly because the one group I'd really like to beat on - Goths, is absent from the game. I wouldn't mind seeing Stoner/Hippies, Gangstas/Wiggers, and Skate punks added either.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:47 am

I dunno. I found the greasers to be pretty interesting, all things considered.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:49 pm

I returned Bully today with all the stuff unlocked - including the hidden vehicles. That game went by way too fast.

Still, I'm kind of considering getting San Andreas after being hooked on Rockstar's style of simulated, detailed worlds. How is it? I'm wary of getting it because gangsta culture and slang annoys the crap out of me, and something tells me I'd end up breaking the CD eventually if there was too much of it.

MegaKitsune · Post by **MegaKitsune** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:37 pm

Zeta wrote:I returned Bully today with all the stuff unlocked - including the hidden vehicles. That game went by way too fast.

Still, I'm kind of considering getting San Andreas after being hooked on Rockstar's style of simulated, detailed worlds. How is it? I'm wary of getting it because gangsta culture and slang annoys the crap out of me, and something tells me I'd end up breaking the CD eventually if there was too much of it.

Make sure you have a 32-bit graphics card before you buy the PC version...they shouldnt have even enabled 16-bit mode. :( $20 down the drain...at least I ripped the soundtrack (GREAT SOUNDTRACK)!

I've also played it on XBOX, it does have a lot of gang culture, but honestly, if you couldn't tell that it doesn't have a lot of gang culture just by looking at the box, perhaps GTA isn't the series for you...

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:51 am

It can't be as bad as Marc Ecko's Getting Up. Man, that game is full of some much half-assed forced machismo and testosterone that it's insane. It's like the direct opposite of Barbie Pony Adventure, with hilarious results.

aso · Post by **aso** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:04 pm

Crazy Penguin wrote:
aso wrote:I definitely agree with OoT. Though I enjoyed the day to night progression, it only actively worked on the overworld... locking the time of day in the towns gives the player plenty of time to move about and look into the hidden stuff only available at certain times, but ultimately took away from some of the immersion.
Have you played Majora's Mask?

Actually, no. Last Zelda game I played was Ocarina of Time. How does time progression work in MM?

Thanks for the further additions.

Also, Marc Ecko's Getting Up was crap. No questioning that.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:33 pm

Time is constantly progressing in MM, with people going about their day and certain events only happening once depending on where you are.

Of course, with time travel, it's the same three days over and over again until you do everything in three days, but still . . .

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:37 pm

In Majora's Mask the time is always ticking (at a faster than usual pace, ala Shenmue). You have three "days" to get everything done before the moon crashes and destroys everything. To avoid annihilation you can warp back to the very beginning of day one, only taking important items back with you (weapons, dungeon rewards etc). The main town of the game (and a few other places) has people going around their day to day lives on a set schedule. By helping people out in different ways you are rewarded with new masks and stuff (at one point in the game you can get a notebook which records all of the relevant information).

For some reason Majora's Mask doesn't get as much recognition as other games in the series, personally I think it's one of the best. It stays true to the Zelda look and feel, but the time system gives it the needed twist to distinguish it from others in the series, so it doesn't just feel like you're playing the same game again.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:49 pm

The different playable characters help a lot too, I'm told. I just wish the Ruto had been invented before the game was created, because man - flying in a Zelda game? That would've rocked.

j-man · Post by **j-man** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:31 pm

Oh, dude. I fucking love Majora's Mask. It's so vibrant, quirky and downright weird, and with the "alternate universe" thing it's almost like a 3D version of those nutcase GB games. Plus, Zelda Overworld Theme! Yay!

It's so different to OoT it's worth at least one full play-through, even though the main game is relatively short due to there only being four main bosses. Still, the Expansion Pak sees that they are indeed terrifyingly huge, and fun to battle.

Gotta love the masks. Nothing beats chipping around in a spiky ball before slamming your burly Goron fist into a wolf's face, or rocking out on a fishbone guitar.

The beavers are just fucking nuts, man.

Shadow Hog · Post by **Shadow Hog** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:30 am

I never got around to playing Majora, sadly. OoT, sure, but not Majora - the only way I could touch that as of now is emulation (probably not a good plan just yet, N64 emulation's good but not THAT good) or getting that Zelda Collector's Edition for the Gamecube which has the first Zelda (own it on the NES), the second Zelda (own it on the NES), Ocarina of Time (own it via Master Quest pre-order deal) and, naturally, Majora (the only thing on that I don't own).

Or maybe it'll be a download on the Wii. I'd prolly hit that.