What is an Xbox 360? A newer way to play SotN, that's what

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:35 pm

So, Gibbon, you're a subjectivist, right? Where do you stand on the whole "you are wrong for thinking this game is good" line? (Which it seems to me you have just deployed yourself.) On the one hand I want to accuse fans of 50 Cent of being wrong and inferior, but on the other hand that smacks of contradiction and nonsense. It's a problem I've never resolved, but I... really want to.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:43 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:Except that I quite honestly don't believe the huge hulking oceans of mediocrity I see all over the place is a flaw in my own perception.

I don't consider it a flaw, but I guess your standards are just stricter than mine and just about everyones. I don't mean to be offensive and single you out or anything, but it seems like a lot of other GHZers still play quite a few games and I wouldn't say they have shitty taste.

I think it's funny Popcorn mentioned the "you are wrong for thinking this game is good" thing cause I was about to ask you a similar question. I vaguely recall ages ago you saying something about not seeing the difference between Looney Tunes and Shakespeare as long as you enjoy them. I agree games like 50 Cent are crappy copies of a game I didn't really like to begin with and people that play them don't enjoy 'real games', but then I look at a thread like this and think you probably think the same thing about me. Plus that whole line of thought is a bunch of elitist crap I don't really want to suscribe too.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:58 pm

Gibbon seems to me to be something of a prophet, just one that frequently contradicts himself. Like the whole Sonic toast debacle. Never forget the Sonic toast debacle.

Locit · Post by **Locit** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:10 pm

I seem to have forgotten the whole Sonic toast debacle. Or perhaps was never party to it.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:23 pm

Y'know, the "I don't know art but I know what I like" argument is like the religious catch-22 "you can't disprove it" which is roundabout logic. I can't prove or disprove whether or not you enjoy a game or pretend to enjoy it or claim to enjoy it just for the sake of argument, but I can draw a clear distinction between something that qualifies, as I have already described, as "formulaic genre games that affix themselves steadfastly to certain mechanical and aesthetic axioms that have and continue to prove successful sales-wise with their target demographic". Maybe you enjoy that, I don't know and it's an altogether separate point and moot in the first place. But there is a clear difference in both the intent and execution of something like, say, "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" and the 26th novel in the Starfleet Command series.

Furthemore - and this may be an unrelated point but I'll clarify it now since it seems to be exactly where you people are headed - not all opinions are equal. Experience and research carry weight. You'll find that most of the middle-aged white housewives who stand in line at the mall to have their Thomas Kinkade paintings retouched know absolutely nothing about the history of the medium or the social contexts of various art movements and generally harbor no desire to learn (which constitutes, by definition, ignorance). In such a case, an art historian is probably more qualified to pass final critique on a Thomas Kinkade painting (and I don't think he'd be standing in line to have one touched up).

As for Sonic toast, that was halfway an experiment. I saw the flaw in my reasoning well beforehand, but I was genuinely curious to see how far I could go with it. It's very similar, it seems to me, to what you guys are doing now by distorting the original point.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:32 pm

So you're saying Light is uneducated and ignorant?

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:38 pm

Um... what?

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:57 pm

Y'know, in the field of video games. For liking GRAW.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:01 pm

Oh, you mean Light Speed.

He is ignorant if he can't see the difference between the games he's talking about and the games we're talking about. Whether or not he actually enjoys them is irrelevant.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:03 pm

I was pretty much expecting that from the beginning, and I'd agree (not that I am uneducated and ignorant) with that argument about the housewives waiting in line to get their Thomas Kinkade paintings touched up. What I've been trying to say the whole time, and was probably fucked up pretty badly by choosing to use GRAW in the first place, was that there are games out there that don't fall into the "formulaic genre games that affix themselves steadfastly to certain mechanical and aesthetic axioms that have and continue to prove successful sales-wise with their target demographic" that I don't think some of you play because you are too 'picky'. And I don't think that means I like shitty games.

This debate is kind of pointless though (yes, I know that debates that can't be won are still good for the mind) because as always it is all preference. From Gibbons point of view, Popcorn liking Half Life 2 is probably the same as Popcorn looking at me liking GRAW.

What is this Sonic toast thing anyway? Was I not around when it happened or did I just forget, cause I think I remember hearing those two words together before, but it could just be my imagination.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:11 pm

Y'know, sorry to interrupt this rousing round of intellectual fisticuffs, but in an attempt to bring this topic back to its original intent:

My brother and I just ordered a 360 via Overstock's $50 off $400 deal, which is not too shabby at all. Sadly, there's absolutely nothing currently available for the system that entices me in the least, but XBLA looks exciting and I'm especially pumped with this Castlevania:SotN announcement. I'm going to buy the hell out of that game, if only to play it again without the hassle of the crappy PS1 junk.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:11 pm

Light Speed wrote: From Gibbons point of view, Popcorn liking Half Life 2 is probably the same as Popcorn looking at me liking GRAW.

If Gibbon doesn't think Half-Life 2 is a brilliant video game, he is factually wrong.

What is this Sonic toast thing anyway? Was I not around when it happened or did I just forget, cause I think I remember hearing those two words together before, but it could just be my imagination.

Sonic toast was (an allegedly experimental) argument Gibbon put forward to demonstrate that if the adding of an arbitrary, superficial feature improves one's enjoyment of something, then it should be done. For example, although having an image of Sonic burnt into a piece of toast has no impact on the qualities one generally looks for in a good piece of toast, if one has such an appreciation for Sonic that seeing his image on the toast ultimately increases his enjoyment and appreciation of it, then that's no bad thing.

All well and good until he said that tie-in video games-- like a game based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (actually, a Blade Runner game was made in the early 90s, and was reportedly pretty good)-- should not exist. But I guess that's okay because he was only messing with us in the first place, or something.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:14 pm

Segaholic2 wrote:Y'know, sorry to interrupt this rousing round of intellectual fisticuffs, but in an attempt to bring this topic back to its original intent:

My brother and I just ordered a 360 via Overstock's $50 off $400 deal, which is not too shabby at all. Sadly, there's absolutely nothing currently available for the system that entices me in the least, but XBLA looks exciting and I'm especially pumped with this Castlevania:SotN announcement. I'm going to buy the hell out of that game, if only to play it again without the hassle of the crappy PS1 junk.

You know, I've never played a Castlevania game, except for five minutes on one of the GBA releases. I didn't think much of it then, but I didn't give it much of a try and I understand that the quality of the individual games varies significantly. It looks kind of like a gothic Metroid-- is that a fair assumption? Considering how wildly I fell in love with the Metroid series a couple of years ago, maybe I should investigate further. Where do I begin?

Post by **Segaholic2** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:20 pm

Yes, Metroid and Castlevania have been compared closely in terms of gameplay and style, and with good reason. I believe there is even a coined term used by some fans to describe the genre, as "Metroidvania". If you've enjoyed any Metroid game in any capacity, which you have claimed, then you are doing yourself a disservice by not checking out Castlevania immediately.

Symphony of the Night, the topical game of this forum thread, is by far the best example of the series and dare I say genre, as I enjoyed it far more than any Metroid game I've ever played. It still stands today as one of the shining examples of game design done right in every aspect. You can play it on your PS2 (although the game is a bit rare nowadays, even the Greatest Hits reprints), or you could wait for this XBLA release, which will hopefully include some new snazzy features like high-def output.

As for other good games in the series, my second-favorite would probably have to be Dawn of Sorrow for DS. Everything about the game was great except for the stupid boss seal-drawing crap, which doesn't play that large a role in gameplay anyway. It's a great game and it's also good on the go. Of the other three GBA games, Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow are supposed to be good, but I never bothered with any of them.

Stay far, far away from all of the 3D Castlevanias. Trust me.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm

Segaholic2 wrote:My brother and I just ordered a 360 via Overstock's $50 off $400 deal, which is not too shabby at all. Sadly, there's absolutely nothing currently available for the system that entices me in the least, but XBLA looks exciting and I'm especially pumped with this Castlevania:SotN announcement. I'm going to buy the hell out of that game, if only to play it again without the hassle of the crappy PS1 junk.

What I want to know is why on earth did you buy a 360? For the last 6 months you have told me there is nothing on the 360 that you were interested in. The three or so games on it that I like and suggested to you, you didn't seem interested in. So why would you buy one and then ask me what games I'd recommend? You and I both know damn well there isn't a game out for the 360 that you want!

Post by **Segaholic2** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm

Because it was cheap. And because I have faith that there will someday be worthwhile games on it.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:25 pm

Yeah, but my guess is that if you waited until it dropped to 300 it would be cheaper and you wouldn't have a lot of trouble catching up on worthwhile games.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:27 pm

Every Ghost Recon and indeed every fucking Tom Clancy game ever made falls into the category of "formulaic genre games that affix themselves steadfastly to certain mechanical and aesthetic axioms that have and continue to prove successful sales-wise with their target demographic". Even the goddamn Tom Clancy novels are like that, they're not even actually written by Tom Clancy anymore! Whether or not you enjoy this tripe is unrelated to its status as rubbish, but your inability to admit that's what it is and suggest that our inability to enjoy it is a result of our being "picky" is ludicrous. Goodness knows I've enjoyed, for whatever reasons, some bad games and even some with highly dubious bottom lines, but I'll never hold Way of the Samurai 2 on the same level as, say, Wander and the Colossus, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

The Sonic toast argument was on Gamiko I believe, and it was years ago. I'm not sure how to satisfy Popcorn beyond admitting that my reasoning was wrong, and I don't understand his intent in dredging that up now as though my thoughts never evolve. It's a favorite hobby of his, I guess because it turns out that I am wrong so rarely.

It looks kind of like a gothic Metroid-- is that a fair assumption?

That's exactly what it is as far as I can discern, though I've never played either series very extensively on account of not particularly enjoying them. Everyone says Symphony of the Night is best.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:30 pm

You need to give Castlevania a fair chance too, you closed-minded hypocrite.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote: The Sonic toast argument was on Gamiko I believe, and it was years ago. I'm not sure how to satisfy Popcorn beyond admitting that my reasoning was wrong, and I don't understand his intent in dredging that up now as though my thoughts never evolve. It's a favorite hobby of his, I guess because it turns out that I am wrong so rarely.

Does anyone remember that time Gibbon said Sonic Heroes was gonna be good? I was saying, "Hey, this is gonna suck," and he was saying it was gonna be good, and kicking my ass for saying it was gonna suck. Then it came out. Remember how much Sonic Heroes sucks? Remember when I was saying it was gonna suck? Gibbon didn't say that. He said it wasn't gonna suck. But it sucked. The game sucks. Gibbon said it wasn't going to suck. He said it was going to be good. But it sucked.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:34 pm

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:38 pm

Light Speed wrote:What I've been trying to say the whole time, and was probably fucked up pretty badly by choosing to use GRAW in the first place, was that there are games out there that don't fall into the "formulaic genre games that affix themselves steadfastly to certain mechanical and aesthetic axioms that have and continue to prove successful sales-wise with their target demographic" that I don't think some of you play because you are too 'picky'.

I thought that was me admitting that GRAW does fall into that category and it was a shitty choice of game to use to back up my argument.

Popcorn, are you saying that Sonic Heroes falls into the category of "formulaic genre games that affix themselves steadfastly to certain mechanical and aesthetic axioms that have and continue to prove successful sales-wise with their target demographic"?!

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:42 pm

Sonic Heroes is more of a "dubious concept with awful execution" thing. Shadow is closer to the "formulaic genre game that affixes itself steadfastly to certain mechanical and aesthetic axioms that have and continue to prove successful sales-wise with their target demographic" thing. However, any ongoing series that approaches its 30th installation runs the risk of falling into that category and most, indeed, have.

Locit · Post by **Locit** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:47 pm

Segaholic2 wrote:Of the other three GBA games, Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow are supposed to be good, but I never bothered with any of them.

Aria of Sorrow is basically similar in style and substance to Dawn of Sorrow, minus the DS features (hooray no seal drawings, boo no onscreen map!). If you enjoyed DoS, you should definitely pick up AoS. It gives backstory to DoS and is really an excellent game. Plus by now it's probably about fifteen bucks.

Shadow Hog · Post by **Shadow Hog** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:11 pm

Hell, you could probably get that two-pack with Harmony of Dissonance (which apparently wasn't as good, but was still decent) and Aria of Sorrow for not much more. I mean, sure, you don't get a free Rare Ring and a Mina doll in Dawn unless you have the original Aria cartridge, but if you've already beaten it, that's a moot point, isn't it?

Admittedly, Aria was my first Castleroid (Castlevania II: Simon's Quest doesn't count, and I'd only really played it, Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse and an emulated Castlevania: Bloodlines before Aria), and it blew my mind. Then I hunted down Symphony and found it used at GameStop, first try, for $25. Further mind-blowing. It's really an excellent turn for the series, although I kinda want to see a new traditional Castlevania sometime, just for kicks, and to see how it'd come out if it were made now.

Segaholic2 wrote:It still stands today as one of the shining examples of game design done right in every aspect.

Well, you're more or less right, but there was one aspect that bothered me - levelling up. Is it just me or do enemies give you less EXP as time goes on? Combine that with a constantly rising EXP quota, and I just can't see how people can level up to Lv.99. Highest I got was, say, 50, which was more than sufficient for kickin' Drac's can.