E3 Sonic Next-Gen trailer on XBOX Live Marketplace

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:25 pm

(with people bitching that Zelda games don't feature voice acting)

Bah. The only possible way voice acting could work in Zelda is if the characters spoke in some made up language like in Ico or Klonoa. Otherwise, they should just keep the characters(especially Link) mute. I don't really trust a company that usually give its beloved characters some of the most ear-grating voices to use full dialogue in a real language.

Well that and I think a made-up spoken language would probably add to the fantasy immersion of the Zelda series.

Locit · Post by **Locit** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:34 pm

I remember well the horror of a voice acted Link from the old animated Zelda cartoons.

"Well excuuuuuuuuuuse me, princess!"

It was... it was his catchphrase.

The Panzer Dragoon series also featured a made up language as well, didn't it?

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:45 pm

Aren't most of Nintendo's games sans voices? Metroid Prime didn't have any talking at all did it? Mario never actually said anything in Sunshine except the noises he made, although having Bowser and Bowser Jr. talk was a travesty. Actually that whole story was a travesty, Bowser kidnapping the Princess and telling him it was his mom. Did he not notice she wasn't a dinosaur?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:05 pm

love how off topic this thread went

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:56 pm

Well, in Metroid Prime, Samus goes "UNF!" every now and then when she gets hit particularly hard. She had text-based dialogue in Metroid Fusion, too.

Shadow Hog · Post by **Shadow Hog** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:48 pm

And Super Metroid. Don't forget Super Metroid. Sure, it was only the intro, more or less, but it was there.

As for mute Sonic, that sounds like a good idea, actually. Maybe they should try that in a story-based game - just once - and see how it turns out. It'd be a little less cheesy, wouldn't it?

Oh, and about "EXCUUUUUUUUSE ME", anyone who hasn't felt the terror needs to here.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:51 pm

Damn, that shit goes on for 2 minutes. Also why does he have black hair and hearts on his boxers?

FlashTHD · Post by **FlashTHD** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:07 pm

The argument that Sonic is better silent sucks. He's had speaking roles all the way back to early 1993, and the creators designed him with some idea of a voice in mind with those quotes on the box art and the way the stories were written. I think the only reason he didn't have voice clips in the Genesis games (he had a few in CD) is because there wasn't room on the cart they could allot to that, or it didn't matter.

Put simply, mute Sonic in a game like Sonic Next and his personality suffers for it. It wouldn't work.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:14 pm

FlashTHD wrote:The argument that Sonic is better silent sucks. He's had speaking roles all the way back to early 1993, and the creators designed him with some idea of a voice in mind with those quotes on the box art and the way the stories were written. I think the only reason he didn't have voice clips in the Genesis games (he had a few in CD) is because there wasn't room on the cart they could allot to that, or it didn't matter.

Put simply, mute Sonic in a game like Sonic Next and his personality suffers for it. It wouldn't work.

Sonic may have been designed with a speaking personality in mind-- although I'd challenge even that assertion, because I'd argue that the old Sonic mottos on the boxart were more affirmations of the character as a concept than direct quotes from the hog himself-- but I think your logic that this means means he should continue to hold speaking roles doesn't follow. Whenever I've re-introduced Sonic to people who last experienced him in the early 90s, one of the first things they recoil at is Sonic speaking in his poorly-acted faux-surfer vocals. It's just not how people who knew him at his genesis-- forgive the pun-- understand the character, and to be honest, I don't think that counts for nothing.

But it's not just a matter of satisfying the vague expectations of the grown-up 16-bit crowd. There's a reason why Sonic clicked so strikingly with game players (and not just kids, but older players and critics too) in the early 90s: he a certain purity of vision and design and that is absolutely absent in the current incarnations of the character. Sonic the Hedgehog, beyond all other things, is a very visual creation-- one whose much-touted 'attitude' was once represented almost exclusively through apperance and animation-- and the half-baked nattering of his present-day self plays to none of his strengths.

Shadow Hog · Post by **Shadow Hog** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:14 pm

Mute Sonic and his personality suffers.

Make Sonic say something utterly stupid, and his personality really suffers.

So, which do you think is worse? Because with the current writing skills Sonic Team has, the latter is most assuredly going to happen.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:22 pm

Shadow Hog wrote:Mute Sonic and his personality suffers.

I don't think Sonic has to have bad dialogue, and that giving Sonic dialogue in the first place is necessarily a bad thing. But I do think that there's something to be said for the silent Sonics of yesteryear.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:25 pm

Can't the guy just be cool by not saying anything? He can still have facial expressions.

Professor Machenstein · Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:27 pm

It just depends on the game. SEGA's goal with these voice-overs, it seems, is to force as much dialogue on us as possible, as opposed to narrating an actual story with them. The characters simply comment on everything because SEGA wants to showcase these voices, and it gets pretty annoying. It wouldn't be too bad if Sonic spoke only if it were necessary or if it were out of instinct ("Uh oh...", "Oof!", "What the...?"), just try not to go all "Yu-Gi-Oh!" on us and give us another one of your speeches about "power in numbers" or one of your strange metaphors.

Anyway, Sonic 2K6. Amy is in the game it seems. I hope she is a little more mature this time, not all psychotic like we know her now. I wonder what she'll look like in this game, considering all these "redesigns".

Frieza2000 · Post by **Frieza2000** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:29 pm

Think back to the Sonic CD animations. In those brief scenes of him running and destroying badniks, he was <i>bursting</i> with personality. Those said more about him than any of the generic dialogue in the last 5 years.

Ritz · Post by **Ritz** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:56 am

Frieza2000 wrote:Think back to the Sonic CD animations. In those brief scenes of him running and destroying badniks, he was <i>bursting</i> with personality. Those said more about him than any of the generic dialogue in the last 5 years.

You know what? You're absolutely right. I can't believe I never noticed this distinct lack of energy before. I mean, I have, to a subconscious extent- I'm sure we all have- but I've never really acknowledged it so bluntly before.

I've just had a disturbing epiphany. It's much more evident to me now that the series is plagued by more than one or two problems; even if they get the controls/level design/general gameplay down pat, there's so much more missing from the games, most of which is essential to complete the experience, that can never be restored in this day and age. Sonic simply can't work in 3D, for one reason for another. The best we can hope for now is a decent game, but we'll never have a true Sonic game again.

Oh, bubble trumps.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:59 am

Shadow Hog wrote:Mute Sonic and his personality suffers.

Make Sonic say something utterly stupid, and his personality really suffers.

So, which do you think is worse? Because with the current writing skills Sonic Team has, the latter is most assuredly going to happen.

I'm not entirely sure that if you mute Sonic, his personality suffers. You can still make him look like a sarcastic dick without him actually saying anything. Frieza is right; as I was typing this out, the Sonic CD credits animations first leapt to mind as a great example of Mute-Sonic still being the epitome of cool, with the same playful and badass attitude he was always supposed to have.

Mute-Sonic also lets you fill in-the-blanks in your mind's eye. When Sonic smirks sarcastically, rather than have him blurt out something like, "I FOUND YOU, FAKER!", the player can imagine his own dialogue. Sure, it might not be the most razor-sharp wit, but to the player, it's what they think Sonic should be saying.

Like Link, in Zelda games. (Seriously, whoever says Link needs to have voice acting is a stupid idiot who doesn't understand the series whatsoever)

Ritz wrote:I've just had a disturbing epiphany. It's much more evident to me now that the series is plagued by more than one or two problems; even if they get the controls/level design/general gameplay down pat, there's so much more missing from the games, most of which is essential to complete the experience, that can never be restored in this day and age. Sonic simply can't work in 3D, for one reason for another. The best we can hope for now is a decent game, but we'll never have a true Sonic game again.

Oh, bubble trumps.

I've been saying similar things for over a year now. I don't think it's impossible to bring these things back to the Sonic experience, though. People just need to take a step back and take a good, long, hard look at Sonic. Rather than try to recapture what made Sonic unique, everybody at Sega and Sonicteam seems to be too comfortable with finding a quick solution to the problem.

Omni Hunter · Post by **Omni Hunter** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:22 am

True, that Sonic CD animation is definitely a good example.
Not just because of the lack of voice which forces more emphasis on the expressions, but also because the Sonic in those sequences seems more child-like.
He used to be the underdog and playful, now he seem's like a bog-standard jock who's out to save the world.

I can understand character development, but Sonic seems to have become a bit too grown-up.

One Classy Bloke · Post by **One Classy Bloke** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:23 am

Professor Machenstein wrote:Anyway, Sonic 2K6. Amy is in the game it seems. I hope she is a little more mature this time, not all psychotic like we know her now. I wonder what she'll look like in this game, considering all these "redesigns".

No, she's just as psychotic. Almost to the level of pure evil.

Shadow Hog · Post by **Shadow Hog** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:35 am

Hey, I'm only saying it because Flash did (who I was replying to; didn't notice Pop's post until just now). Frankly, I think he's completely and utterly wrong, too, but I like rationalizing things.

Professor Machenstein · Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:12 am

One Classy Bloke wrote:
Professor Machenstein wrote:Anyway, Sonic 2K6. Amy is in the game it seems. I hope she is a little more mature this time, not all psychotic like we know her now. I wonder what she'll look like in this game, considering all these "redesigns".
No, she's just as psychotic. Almost to the level of pure evil.

Not good. At least there's evil involved, I suppose. Oh well, once a psycho always a psycho.

As for restoring the Sonic experience, since we have not already had about six-hundred something discussions about it here, I think SONICTEAM needs to work on the game mechanics first before they go out to restore the personality the Sonic games once had. It would be a shame to have a new Sonic game with the classic styling and atmosphere just for it to be poorly designed and full of glitches, you see what I'm saying. Style and substance, not style over substance... not to say that style is not some sort of substance anyway.

Just establish a gameplay formula first, one that works, then go all out to restore personality to the series. Thaaaaat's it.

FlashTHD · Post by **FlashTHD** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:31 am

Shit, I explain that Sonic with a voice is normal and it sets off yet another annoying tirade about "WE'LL NEVER SEE A GOOD GAME AGAIN" "THEY WON'T DO THIS AND THAT SO THE GAMES SUCK" WAH WAH. You people amaze me.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:01 am

FlashTHD wrote:Shit, I explain that Sonic with a voice is normal and it sets off yet another annoying tirade about "WE'LL NEVER SEE A GOOD GAME AGAIN" "THEY WON'T DO THIS AND THAT SO THE GAMES SUCK" WAH WAH. You people amaze me.

So, then, you're happy with the current Sonic games? With Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Riders, and Sonic Heroes? You thought they were good, passable games, that you had no qualms with? You've never said to yourself, "Boy, if I was in charge of things, I'd do [this] differently."?

The road the 3D Sonic games have gone down have lead many to be rightfully cautious and skeptical when a new game is unveiled.

FlashTHD · Post by **FlashTHD** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:25 am

I've just had a disturbing epiphany. It's much more evident to me now that the series is plagued by more than one or two problems; even if they get the controls/level design/general gameplay down pat, there's so much more missing from the games, most of which is essential to complete the experience, that can never be restored in this day and age. Sonic simply can't work in 3D, for one reason for another. The best we can hope for now is a decent game, but we'll never have a true Sonic game again.

Oh, bubble trumps.

Look, i've already heard depressing complaints like this an innumerable amount of times here, and I can't imagine what repeating yourselves at random will do to help.

And of course I thought Heroes/Shadow/Riders were heavily flawed; not utter and total disasters of game design, but broken in at least one way.

Post by **Popcorn** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:22 am

Guys, this is, or is meant to be, a Sonic the Hedgehog forum. We're going to be arguing over the series' decline for a long, long time to come, and I think most of the stuff that's been suggested here applies to the point about voice acting.

Ritz · Post by **Ritz** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:30 am

FlashTHD wrote:Shit, I explain that Sonic with a voice is normal and it sets off yet another annoying tirade about "WE'LL NEVER SEE A GOOD GAME AGAIN" "THEY WON'T DO THIS AND THAT SO THE GAMES SUCK" WAH WAH. You people amaze me.

Oh, your post had nothing to do with my zany outburst. In fact, I support that opinion; the voices are essential to the games now. They could've managed without them back in SA, but once you give a character a voice, there's no turning back. Unless they, y'know, made a true return-to-roots title, but even then, I imagine it'd be just as tacky as The New Super Mario Bros.

But really, that wasn't your standard "UUURGH FUCK 4KIDS RUINED SONIC FOREVER" post, I was simply acknowledging the fact that there are some important aspects of the series that simply can't be done in 3D. At the time, I was particularly concerned about the overall personality of the series; they can still replicate some of that through dialogue, but the movement is too fluid for a 3D environment. I mean, just run that Mechabu scene from the SCD outro by yourself a couple of times; Sonic was the only character in existence who could pull that stunt off, and he can't now. I recall hearing somewhere that the reason Sonic runs the way he does is because the classic crazylegs style was too difficult for them to mimic.

And the linear level design? It's clearly too much of a task for them to handle. I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason the past titles went with this motif was because an open environment wasn't capable on the hardware of the time. And even though it's more than possible now, they don't seem too willing to change. And I don't blame them, making a 3D stage with the scale of the classic games is quite a daunting task, and judging by Classy Bloke's recount on the development of Shadow, they probably don't have the time to invest in such a thing.

So yeah, once you get past the problems that stem from blatant laziness and ignorance, there's still a slew of issues that simply can't be fixed when Sonic Team is working at such a breakneck pace. As Blaze said, it's still possible with a bit of work, but they're going to need to stay put and really analyze the franchise until something clicks. But a subpar game from them will sell just as well as a good one, and they know this. The series will be in a state of disrepair for a long time to come.

Also, I'd like to think I'm entitled to at least one rant post, everyone else made one at some point.