The next console sonic game should be 2d, I kid you not.

[Omni Hunter]

Very well put that man.

[Nova]

Present day Sonic Team never personally made a 2D Sonic game. Dimps has developed all the pocket titles since '98, and the Genesis titles were handled by several different software development teams.

Does anyone know which team designed Sonic CD btw? Was it AM8?

Naoto Oshima team…if you want more to to GHZ and see the page about Sonic Cd.

I'd like to see what people thought of Super Mario 64 if it wasn't the first true 3D platform game, and instead came out after Banjo Kazooie or something. It's good, I'll give you that, but I bet everyone's perception of the game is tainted with nostalgia (zomg real 3d!!1) no matter how subconscious. Just a thought.

What was the last 2D game Sonic Team made?

Wasn't Sonic The Hedgehog the only 2D game that Sonic Team actually made?

Chuchu rocket was the last 2D game Sonic team made

[BlazeHedgehog]

I'd like to see what people thought of Super Mario 64 if it wasn't the first true 3D platform game, and instead came out after Banjo Kazooie or something. It's good, I'll give you that, but I bet everyone's perception of the game is tainted with nostalgia (zomg real 3d!!1) no matter how subconscious. Just a thought.

Saying that is kind of retarded, though. Banjo Kazooie wouldn't exist without Mario 64. That's like saying we wouldn't be so enamoured with Sonic the Hedgehog if Bubsy or Jazz Jackrabbit was the first one out the door. That's a paradox.

Mario invented a lot of the modern platformer staples. Banjo Kazooie, Jak & Daxter, hell, even Sonic the Hedgehog would likely not exist - at least, not in the format they exist now - if Mario hadn't blazed a trail into the innovative unknown when he did.

I mean, asside from the visuals, the game has almost nothing specifically in common with the 2D titles. I'm sure that, if you completely ignored all the mechanics of the 2D Sonic games altogether, you could probably make a great 3D Sonic, too, because you're not tying yourself down... the only thing guiding your design is how enjoyable it is.

But isn't that the point? 3D is a completely different realm than 2D. What's easy to do in 2D is difficult to perform in 3D, and what's natural to do in 3D doesn't always make sense in 2D. Can you imagine "Grand Theft Auto: Side Scrolling Edition"? And that's kind of the problem a lot of these transitions suffered. They tried to take familiar gameplay and transplant it directly into 3D without even considering what 3D was going to do to their mechanics; look at Castlevania 64, for example, or, Bubsy 3D, Contra, Etc.

Certain games make the natural jump to 3D easier, however. Isometric games generally seem to handle the transition much better; Zelda, for example, because generally they were emulating and compensating for the perspective anyway and only needed a little "boost" to help out with certain things.

So Mario 64 didn't emphasize jumping on goombas; so what? It was still a platformer. You jumped around from platform to platform, generally moving platforms, at that, and made it to your goal with as many coins and lives as possible. The set pieces were all there; maybe you didn't bop goombas, but you still fought with them. Bowser was there, as was Peach, and Mushrooms, and Koopa Troopers... And it was a success in that reguard, a success that still manages to hold up today as a fun game, as long as you're not one of those people who are like "RRGH COLLECTATHONS MAKE ME MURDER ARGH!!11"

[Omni Hunter]

Fuck you, ever heard of Pitfall, Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy? These platform games all predate Mario by a couple of years as they are the true trailblazers of horizontal gameplay.
Jumping on an enemies head with your arse is not the only type of platform game around, think about games like Croc and Spyro.
Anyway, if it weren't for Donkey Kong then there would be no Mario anyway so game, set and match!

[BlazeHedgehog]

Fuck you, ever heard of Pitfall, Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy? These platform games all predate Mario by a couple of years as they are the true trailblazers of horizontal gameplay.
Jumping on an enemies head with your arse is not the only type of platform game around, think about games like Croc and Spyro.
Anyway, if it weren't for Donkey Kong then there would be no Mario anyway so game, set and match!

I never said Mario invented platforming as a concept, I said it invented a lot of the staples. It combined side-scrolling with platforming and a host of other things that platformers today still utilize; it innovated in ways nobody else had done at the time. Mario, and Nintendo in general, also re-popularlized home console gaming after Atari left it in a shithole. It might not have been the first platformer ever, but it certainly has been one of the most important ones as far as bringing new concepts to the genre.

[Omni Hunter]

Then what other staples did Mario bring in? And that's not a sarcastic question, I really want to know ^^.
I'm just saying that Mario was not the genesis, Nintendo took the platform genre and added something to make it better which is what happens with computer games anyway.
Using Mario to add side-scrolling is nothing too different to adding the element of speed, speed related obstacles like loops/ corkscrews or the spinning on Sonic The Hedgehog, something was added to the formula, that's all.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Mario introduced, to my knowledge:

- The concept of collecting 100 somethings (Generally coins) for a 1up
- Side-scrolling platforming mechanics (all platformers were "move from screen-to-screen" back then)
- A unique power level system (Small/Big/Fire Mario, go back to Small Mario after taking a hit)
- The concept of large (both in the number of stages and their relative size each), uniquely designed non-repeating levels, prefaced by a boss encounter at the end of each "world".
- Bonuses for beating a stage with certain conditions (SMB1's fireworks, SMB3's cards, SMW's goal height, SMW2's flower roulette, etc.)

There are undoubtedly more, but naming these is difficult when trying to pin down who did what first. I had at least three more, but considered them so broad that other platformers beyond what I know of might have done them before Mario.

[j-man]

Chuchu rocket was the last 2D game Sonic team made

I meant Sonic game, silly.

Saying that is kind of retarded, though.

YOU'RE RETARDED.

Seriously, Mario 64 may have done a lot of things but it didn't invent the idea of a 3D platformer. If Nintendo hadn't done it someone else would have. I used BK as an example, but the same could be said for any 3D game, real or imaginary. None of the games you mentioned needed Mario to exist - paradoxical or not, we could have easily had Sonic Adventure before Mario 64, although (like it even needs to be said) it might be a different Sonic Adventure than the one we know.

Mario 64 is not the be-all-and-end-all of 3D platformers, anyway; there's a whole bunch of others that are arguably better, more rounded and developed with more replay value and all that other shit people like. I'm saying that everyone says it's the best, allowing nostalgia to cloud over other excellent titles.

Nearly every time I see it win BSET GAME EVAR!! is because people said how "magical" it was to run around in 3D for the first time. I see Mario 64 as less of a game and more of a showcase of Nintendo getting there first with the whole 3D platformer thing. The game could have been a piece of shit and we'd all still love it because it was the first time we'd ever had the z-axis.

Mario 64 was revolutionary. It inspired countless spin-offs, copycats, homages and parodies. But if they hadn't done it, someone else would have. The game doesn't matter anymore, it's what it stands for.

[Brazillian Cara]

On a small change of subject, are there any plans for a new BK?

[Menander]

Not according to rare's site anyways. Though going to banjothreeie.com does send you to rare's official site...

Did anyone play the gameboy BK? Was it any good?

[Zeta]

Did anyone play the gameboy BK? Was it any good?

Fuck no. Imagine a shitty version of the Conker Gameboy Color Game with Banjo instead.

And since you have to rescue Kazooie, you're limited to Banjo's moves alone.

And as we all know - he really hasn't got any.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Mario 64 was revolutionary. It inspired countless spin-offs, copycats, homages and parodies. But if they hadn't done it, someone else would have. The game doesn't matter anymore, it's what it stands for.

Ah, but even I compensated for this in my argument:

Mario invented a lot of the modern platformer staples. Banjo Kazooie, Jak & Daxter, hell, even Sonic the Hedgehog would likely not exist - at least, not in the format they exist now - if Mario hadn't blazed a trail into the innovative unknown when he did.

I have no doubt that somebody would have stumbled upon a similiar platformer formula, but that's not to say somebody out there would have re-created Super Mario Brothers or Mario 64 verbatim. Imagine if, maybe somehow Crash Bandicoot took Mario 64's place and everybody copied off that - Imagine Sonic Adventure, "Crash Bandicoot Style"; even more linear and restricted than it is even now.

Wether or not it was the first to think of the ideas themselves, Mario 64 gathered them all under one roof and implemented them properly into a good game, and it is my opinion that, just as you can go back to the original Super Mario Brothers on the NES and still derive (albiet simplistic) enjoyment from it, you can go back to Mario 64 to do the same.

Did anyone play the gameboy BK? Was it any good?

Fuck no. Imagine a shitty version of the Conker Gameboy Color Game with Banjo instead.

And since you have to rescue Kazooie, you're limited to Banjo's moves alone.

And as we all know - he really hasn't got any.

Rescue Kazooie? You must've only played for like, less than a single level; you get her back rather quickly. I rather enjoyed Banjo Kazooie GBA - it's the only isometric platformer I ever tolerated long enough to see the final boss of, and I consider Isometric games some of the worst sorts of entertainment currently on the market today. That's gotta be saying something.

[firemario1001]

Does Rare still make good games these days? I heard they lost a lot of talented people right after Nintendo sold the company.

[Ritz]

The last Rare game I can remember enjoying was Donkey Kong 2 on the SNES.

You know what? I really need to play Conker.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Does Rare still make good games these days? I heard they lost a lot of talented people right after Nintendo sold the company.

Well, I know Starfox Adventures was shit, Grabbed by the Ghoulies was even shittier, and people bitch at the Conker Port for removing the more unique game-types for generic straight up team deathmatch.

Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero have been getting pretty nice reviews, though.

[Light Speed]

I personally really liked Starfox Adventures. I just pretended that none of the characters were actually from the Starfox universe and it made for a fun game.

[Kishi]

Why would you say "I kid you not" after stating an opinion? Do you think we're going to be suspicious as to whether that's your real opinion? Is it just some stupid regional thing, like using "anymore" positively?

[Starscream]

I mean, asside from the visuals, the game has almost nothing specifically in common with the 2D titles. I'm sure that, if you completely ignored all the mechanics of the 2D Sonic games altogether, you could probably make a great 3D Sonic, too, because you're not tying yourself down... the only thing guiding your design is how enjoyable it is.

But isn't that the point? 3D is a completely different realm than 2D. What's easy to do in 2D is difficult to perform in 3D, and what's natural to do in 3D doesn't always make sense in 2D. Can you imagine "Grand Theft Auto: Side Scrolling Edition"? And that's kind of the problem a lot of these transitions suffered. They tried to take familiar gameplay and transplant it directly into 3D without even considering what 3D was going to do to their mechanics; look at Castlevania 64, for example, or, Bubsy 3D, Contra, Etc.

I agree with this. Point is that the gameplay of 2D Sonic is irreconcilable with 3D mechanics, and with the way things are going, Sega have set themselves up against the wall. Either they ditch the old playing style and alienate half their fans (who will want to play Sonic without the familiar elements?), or they keep on the current path and alienate them anyway.

The only other option is if they revert back to 2D, something that, as much as I'd like to see it, will never happen. If they'd do another game in the classic style (basically picking up where S&K left off) I'd be the first in row to buy it.

[Crazy Penguin]

Point is that the gameplay of 2D Sonic is irreconcilable with 3D mechanics

How so?

[Wooduck51]

Why would you say "I kid you not" after stating an opinion? Do you think we're going to be suspicious as to whether that's your real opinion? Is it just some stupid regional thing, like using "anymore" positively?

because I suffer from random seizures that cause me to type stupid things, I kId YOu nOT!

like that.

[Light Speed]

It would have been a much better topic if it said, "I shit you not" instead.

[Omni Hunter]

Point is that the gameplay of 2D Sonic is irreconcilable with 3D mechanics

What I don't get is that there have been 2d Sonic games, but they were shit like the 3d ones you go on about.
You can't ignore the fact that the formula failed on them just to say that 2d is the way to go, I mean, Sonic Adventure was one of the best Sonic games in the second wave.

All you have done is ignore the good 3d games and the shit 2d games.
YOUR PLAN HAS FAIL'D.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Sonic DID make adjustments when became to the 3D realm. I love the homing attack. Some might think the move is too much of a "gimmie", but, especially the Sonic Adventure 2 homing attack, it combined the right amount of skill and ease of use. It made hitting enemies just as easy as it was back on the Sega Genesis. Without it, hitting enemies becomes awkward and kind of sluggish. I think of the Homing Attack in the same reguards I do Z-Targeting in Ocarina of Time.

But, Omni is right in this reguard. Bad level design is bad level design. Which is sadly hilarious, because Green Hill Zone in SA2 was a good example of the kind of wider, slightly more exploritory levels I've wanted to see in a 3D Sonic title; and Sonicteam completely ignored that for Heroes. It's amazing how short-sighted they can be sometimes in that reguard.

"WE'RE GOING TO TRY AND MAKE A 3D SONIC GAME THAT RECAPTURES THE FEEL OF THE CLASSIC GAMES BUT WE DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO DO THAT DESPITE THE ANSWER SITTING RIGHT INFRONT OF OUR FACES."

[CM August]

Without [the homing attack], hitting enemies becomes awkward and kind of sluggish.

It's my belief that no-frills jumping would be so much better if it had a sense of weight to it. Sonic Adventure, for instance, has a disturbing amount of "hang time" in the air that also slows Sonic down. In the old games you could perform a full jump while keeping up the pace.

In SA2's case, Sonic doesn't perform a kaiten jump so much as a triple somersault in midair, then falling spread-eagle to the ground. The actual jumping physics feel weightier that its predecessor (I think), but not weighty enough.

And while I may be incorrect here, it seems jumping was purposely altered to give players more time to perform a homing attack. It just doesn't sit well with me. Proper jumping physics would actually improve the game's flow, even if it's trickier to program or whatever. Bouncing from one enemy to another is infinitely more satisfying than breaking the laws of physics to hurl yourself at them. It all comes down to tightening both the physics & control of Sonic's movement, something the 3D outings have yet to accomplish.

[BlazeHedgehog]

I don't think it's trickier to program. I think it just makes it easier on the player. One of the biggest hurdles of Mario 64 was coming to grips with the fact you were now platforming in three dimensions rather than two. I still have nightmares about Rainbow Ride and Tick Tock Clock to this day.

Not only does that extra hang time give you an added opportunity to line up a homing attack, it gives you time to make the necessary adjustments when given the more complex (and less precise) platforming mechanics 3D introduces.