The Ideal 3D Sonic Game

[BlazeHedgehog]

(I know there's a secret area in Final Egg that's almost IMPOSSIBLE to reach because the Camera often times will freak out)

The camera won't let you in there because that was originally an alternate path, but was removed from the game. Even if you get back there, there's nothing but a few rings.

I've played through SA1 at least 10 times and the camera has never bothered me to the extent that I'd call it broken. But I tend to be tolerant of minor control or visual failures because I'm so immersed in the game that I don't pay attention to it.

The room you're talking about is the one you come upon - a section of Gamma's level, as Sonic? The dummies pop out - you can Spindash-jump across to a section in the middle of the room. You run up a ramp here, and land on top of the mid-section island thing. Just above you is a brass pipe with some rings on it. You can walk across that to a section in the wall. There's a couple ring monitors, a 1up, and speed shoes, here, I believe. Getting up on the pipe, let alone walking across and getting into the section with all the item monitors here is almost IMPOSSIBLE, as the camera constantly fights you every step of the way.

[One Classy Bloke]

There are loads of hidden places in Final Egg. At the top of any of the rooms with those respawning bugs, theres a few ring boxes and 1UPs.

In the area where Gamma shoots the Sonic Doll, if you jump over the gap, and run to the left, you'll find a spring that leads to a collection of rings in the shape of Sonic's head.

Finally, when you get to the room where Gamma starts and you have to do the last Light Speed Dash as Sonic, if you wait, you'll find a slowly moving platform. Hop on that, climb the ladders you find, avoid the spiked balls and jump into a room to the right to find 4 1UPs.

[Frieza2000]

I was talking about a room with a rocket pad that goes up to nowhere. It looks you're supposed to come from above and use the pad to collect ring boxes. You get to the room by hugging a wall as you fall into the second room with those endlessly spawning crawling things.

Another thing to note about SA1's story is how much it accomplishes. Think about the series before 98. All we really had were loosly defined characters, Chaos emeralds of varying colors, numbers, and powers, and a Master emerald that we knew nothing about except that it kept floating island up. And even these were muddled between the English and Japanese versions. Think of what SA1 did.

-Cannonization of the echidna civilization.
-The chao, and a bit of the Chaos and Master emeralds' past.
-Defining a relationship between the emeralds and the heart of their user.
-Establishing that the Master Emerald has a consciousness.
-Establishing that the Master Emerald can neutralize the Chaos Emeralds.
-Defining the setting as Earth or some parallel of it.
-Defining that Sonic is a nomad, Amy lives in a city, and Tails has a workshop (bringing his mechanical ability to the American continuum).
-Character dialogue.

And on top of that, the story of Chaos and the unique yet entwining adventures of 6 character. It established a continuity. All SA2 did was introduce Shadow and GUN. While it's an interesting story, much more time and talant went into SA1's.

SA2's story tried to put what could have been a full length scifi movie into 5 minutes of cut scenes. It felt rushed and disjointed. It could've been dramatic and cool, but it moves so fast it trips over its own feet. SA1 did better in that respect.

I don't like the cynical tone that GUN is used for either, and it's on its third game (SA2, Battle, Shadow). In a sense, it's similar the natural vs unnatural thing the genesis games had, but without the positive feeling. And it's not even used as a theme; it's just a constant reminder of humanity's dark side. Doesn't belong in Sonic.

And the fate of the emeralds after Sonic collects them and finishes using them has always been a mystery. It's concievable that people could end up with them. Why did it never happen before? Well, every Sonic games seems to take place within the same year or so because nobody ever ages, so we could call it time constraints. Governments are slow.

[BlazeHedgehog]

All SA2 did was introduce Shadow and GUN. While it's an interesting story, much more time and talant went into SA1's.

- It introduced and established a Goverment; with a President, spies, and the knowledge of how to use Robots to enforce its law.
- It delved deeper into the powers the Chaos Emeralds contained; introducing "Chaos Control" - the ability to stop or slow, time, as well as teleport objects and beings from place-to-place.
- It throws hints out there that Sonic may be an unnatural being. The game never confirms this (thankfully), but it doesn't shy away from at least raising the question of Sonic's origins.
- It fleshed out Eggman's backstory, giving him a Grandfather that he aspired to be like.

Not as much as SA1, I'll admit, but more than you give it credit for, at least.

[Senbei]

SA2's story tried to put what could have been a full length scifi movie into 5 minutes of cut scenes. It felt rushed and disjointed. It could've been dramatic and cool, but it moves so fast it trips over its own feet. SA1 did better in that respect.

Mmm, SA1 definately established a lot more than SA2 because it was the first in the series to use story. However, I disagree with this quote to the extent that, while rushed, the cut scenes WERE dramatic and cool (at least, I thought so), while SA1's cut scenes moved FAR, FAR too slowly. Dialogue sounded forced and broken, not at all like SA2 in which characters even went so far as to talk at the same time (sometimes before knowing what the other was saying, but you get my point). I also feel that SA2 went to some lengths trying to make ties to real culture, like with the Bernoulli (spelled right?) tidbit.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

Sonic Adventure 2 also had cool music in its cut-scenes. Sonic Adventure 1 had the music so loud you couldn't hear a damn thing, PLUS they were pretty boring.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Dialogue sounded forced and broken, not at all like SA2 in which characters even went so far as to talk at the same time (sometimes before knowing what the other was saying, but you get my point). I also feel that SA2 went to some lengths trying to make ties to real culture, like with the Bernoulli (spelled right?) tidbit.

I'm chuckling to myself right now.

Sonic Adventure's voices were terrible because Sega's directors don't know how to handle american actors. Ryan Drummond has recounted the horror that was dubbing SA1's lines: Enter the studio, say each line once and once only, then leave. The lines he had to speak were out of order and he wasn't allowed to see the dialog for any of the other characters - just Sonic.

Sonic Adventure 2's voices overlapped because Sonicteam rushed the game out the door in order to meet their strict "Sonic 10th Anniversary" deadline. The Japanese voices almost never overlap like this, meaning it is simply a lazy timing issue - rather than go through and re-time all the dialog for the new English voices, they simply left them the way they were. This can often result in dialog overlapping when the english line runs too long. There was no effort put forth to make it feel more "real", it was simply a bug; and a nasty one, at that.

[Ritz]

Personally, I'd like to see the 360-degree rotating environment physics that were introduced in X-Treme implemented in 3D. Don't give me that look. Sure, it looked a bit wonky with the game's restricted camera and movement, but just try to picture it for a moment. Think of Chaotix's special stages, but at 700 Mph without the eratic transition from wall to wall within an 8-sided polygon. F-Zero GX might've had something similar to what I'm envisioning, but I've never played it, so I can't say.

Of course, that wouldn't completely satisfy me. I still long for the vibrant flare of past games like Gunstar Heroes and Silhouette Mirage, right down to the boss battles, the art, the eccentric plots... Y'know, the overall presentation of the game. It's pretty difficult to summarize, but I'm pretty sure you all know what I'm talking about. Today's Sonic games (Or games in general, really) are simply too... Dull. The gameplay, the visuals... EVERYTHING. It all sucks. Of course, there's really no point in bitching about it, since games'll never be as good as they were. But even still, I want another Chaotix. Chaotix was pretty. If the next Sonic could at least mimic Chaotix's surreal pizzazz, I will die a happy man

[PSMad]

There's no doubt it in my mind, Sonic Adventure was more the Sonic game I'd been waiting for than SA2, thought SA2 still did an awful lot of things right. I think I like the storyline especially because it delves into Eggman’s story a bit more. He was a main character and two family members were introduced. You got the feeling this was his first public appearance as well. Probably infamous already but never having addressed the populous, when he broadcast his message of world domination aboard Ark I had a tear of pride well up in my eye.

So, I think the game did the best job of all the games to give Eggman a better understanding. Shame SH just disregarded all that had happened in an instant.

[Senbei]

Sonic Adventure's voices were terrible because Sega's directors don't know how to handle american actors. Ryan Drummond has recounted the horror that was dubbing SA1's lines: Enter the studio, say each line once and once only, then leave. The lines he had to speak were out of order and he wasn't allowed to see the dialog for any of the other characters - just Sonic.

Horror, indeed. ^^;
Still, my point stands. Even in Japanese, there are often a couple of annoying seconds between replies. On the Dreamcast, this is accentuated by the clicks and whirrs of the hardware that you hear everytime somebody says something. And in SA2, even in Japanese, there are still instances of characters interrupting each other.
Then again, when is voice dialogue never a problem?

Probably infamous already but never having addressed the populous, when he broadcast his message of world domination aboard Ark I had a tear of pride well up in my eye.

What a touching story! I found Eggman's more serious, but not less quirky, role in SA2 compelling; a refreshing alternative to the more humorous Robotnik of earlier and later games. It'd be nice to see this Eggman in a new game, though the clownish one, with taste, is just as good.

[The Doc]

His voice won't be the same without Deem, though.

[Senbei]

True. We will all miss that man.

[Light Speed]

Didn't Sonic Heroes have wall to wall jumping? That was directed to whoever said they'd like to see it on the first page, I'm to lazy to quote him.

[Zeta]

Didn't Sonic Heroes have wall to wall jumping? That was directed to whoever said they'd like to see it on the first page, I'm to lazy to quote him

It did, but it wasn't a technique you could use anywhere. Only on certain panels. So it was pretty stupid.

[BlazeHedgehog]

You could do the wall jump anywhere, actually. But it was only useful in a few levels (most notably Ocean Palace and Final Fleet).

[chriscaffee]

The "jump panels" were exclusive to the first Sonic Adventure if I recall correctly. Heroes had it so you could wall jump on any wall, the problem, as already stated was that it wasn't always useful and it wasn't always possible. You could wall jump for example on a wall with no complement or with one out of reach, making the maneuver pointless.

[Owen Axel]

Moves that can only be used when you absolutely have to use them hardly count as moves at all. It would be as bad as homing attacks only working when there's a string of enemies across a chasm.

[Senbei]

I never really played Heroes, so I don't know about too many of the new moves introduced in it. But when I suggested wall jumping, I was thinking of a few things. First off, of course, was the wall to wall idea, which could be useful in avoiding traps like pits, spikes, and enemies in enclosed spaces, someplace like Pyramid Cave or inside Red Mountain. Secondly, it could be used as a "jumpstart" to gain speed quickly, like pushing off the wall in a swimming pool to gain momentum. This may complement a point brought up earlier about jump dash being a cheap way to gain speed and using the environment instead, though I've always appreciated the jump dash. Wall jumping should be a complement to the jump dash, and certainly shouldn't be limited in usefulness to specific areas.

[The Doc]

Final Fleet

Final Fortress.

But the game sucked, so I'll let it slide. It was also used in Mystic Mansion, most notably as Espio. I thought it was kinda...quirky...the fact that Sonic and Shadow eventually fell off the wall, but Espio would stay there forever. Seriously, you could leave him standing on the wall, go to the kitchen, make yourself a sandwich, and he'd still be there when you came back.

Doesn't raise the game's grade or anything, but still.

If you're going to have the Spin Dash, you should have the Strike Dash or the Peel-Out. That was just fuckin' killer.

[j-man]

He's a chameleon. He sticks to walls.

[CM August]

Chameleons are awesome. I don't know why they gave Espio a new swishy ninja motif; it just feels trite.

[j-man]

He didn't even need to be a ninja to be cool.

[CM August]

Yeah. For that matter, Vector didn't need to be a gangsta. I hate his new design.

[The Doc]

And Charmy is just a flaming homosexual.

[CM August]

In that respect, I favor Archie's depiction of the Chaotix. They live on the floating island and are Knuckles' best friends, all of whom are genuinely likeable. Except maybe Vector, but he's cool in an assholish sort of way. Ironically Charmy was one of the eldest, which worked quite well. It's nowhere near the canonical version, but it feels more homely than a freaking detective agency.