New Kingdom Hearts II Trailer.

Post by **Esrever** » Mon May 02, 2005 9:58 pm

The look and sound and story are all undeniably a part of what can make a game enjoyable. But no matter how awesome they are, they can't save a title that plays like shit. In a lot of games, I just don't feel that the interactive elements really add anything to the rest of the package other than tedium. So why bother having them in the first place? Either cut them out and make a film, or revamp them into something that is actually worth playing.

Kingdom Hearts is a perfect example. I loved the concept, the story, the look, the sound... but the actual nuts and bolts gameplay was so shallow and repetitive that I prayed for cut scenes.

That's all I mean when I say that some games would be better as films than they are as games. Of course, if you don't even like the other elements of Kingdom Hearts, you're not likely to agree on that point. ;)

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon May 02, 2005 10:22 pm

I never suggested that the story or visuals should be expected to hold up a game any more than I'm arguing against the ridiculous notion that the base mechanics alone do. If one thing's cool but something else sucks or simply doesn't work with other elements, the game is unsuccessful. This is as true of a solid game engine with a poorly conceived theme (such as Prince of Persia Warrior Within or God of War) as it is of the opposite.

Neo Yi · Post by **Neo Yi** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:02 pm

Well, I've heard the combat will be better.

Seriously, I don't see the big deal in this current argument. GG hates it, a couple don't. I loved the first KH despite it's frustrating battles and screwy camera. I fell in love with the story and music and I eagerly await for KH2 and if someone isn't gonna like KH in general, why should I care?
~Neo

tornadot · Post by **tornadot** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:02 pm

All that stuff in the video is stuff I've seen before...I really want to play this game...I won't bother explaing to you guys why I love FF and KH games because I really don't know why...I just do...

Post by **Esrever** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:13 pm

Well, sure, GG. But I was never trying to say that solid gameplay was all it took to make a brilliant game, either. I only meant that if a game was solid in all respects EXCEPT the gameplay, they'd be better off removing the gameplay entirely and making a film. After all, it is the only element that isn't working, right? Why not just take it out? And similarly, a great playing game is probably better off with no story than a shitty one...

Although I have to admit, between a poorly-themed game that played well and a poor-playing game with an interesting theme, I'd probably rather play the first. It certainly takes all elements to make a masterpiece, but as in every medium, there are definitely some elements that are more important than others.

It kind of reminds me of a debate in the comic world... can good writing save bad art better than good art can save bad writing?

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:18 pm

Esrever wrote:It kind of reminds me of a debate in the comic world... can good writing save bad art better than good art can save bad writing?

Heck yes.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:09 am

It certainly takes all elements to make a masterpiece, but as in every medium, there are definitely some elements that are more important than others.

I don't think so. I don't think so at all. Unison is the deciding factor, and that goes back to the hamburger analogy - the ingredients alone amount to nothing. If the bread is stale, it ruins the whole burger. You can't just get rid of it, because then you no longer have a burger, you have a meat patty and maybe some cheese. This is true for games more than any other medium because there are so many elements involved.

It's conventional wisdom to think that the so-called "gameplay" alone is the most important factor, but if you change anything - the visuals, the setting, the music, the character, anything - you get a completely different game. Imagine if Katamari Damacy starred some generic bald sweaty action hero who rolls a metal mace through hell to pick up tortured souls, with bland punk rock playing in the background. I don't think I'd have given the game a second glance. It's true that Katamari has an excellent engine, but it only works because of its wacky light-hearted atmosphere, the pastel, almost muted colors, the blocky characters, and the happy nonsense Japanese soundtrack. The elements all play off each other and create a harmony. It's not a matter of creating a "masterpiece", just creating a cohesive whole.

The world itself is just as important as how you interact with it, otherwise we wouldn't have anything except two-tone games with blocks of various sizes.

Post by **G.Silver** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:27 am

Imagine if Katamari Damacy starred some generic bald sweaty action hero who rolls a metal mace through hell to pick up tortured souls, with bland punk rock playing in the background. I don't think I'd have given the game a second glance.

I dunno, that one boss in Castlevania who was just a ball of naked dead people was a real show-stopper.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:35 am

I modelled for that, actually.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:39 am

It kind of reminds me of a debate in the comic world... can good writing save bad art better than good art can save bad writing?

Duh. Why the hell do you think Dilbert lasted so long? It sure wasn't eyecandy. The first 7 years of that strip was magic.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:44 am

Kingdom Hearts to me defines everything I hate about Disney (shameless franchise whoring) and Square (boring mundane games).

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:55 am

It's still lightyears better than the direct to video sequels.

Cuckooguy · Post by **Cuckooguy** » Tue May 03, 2005 2:06 am

Delphine wrote:
chriscaffee wrote:There is obviously a graphical difference between Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic & Knuckles, but at this point in time, does it really matter?
It mattered when S&K came out.

Actually, I thought Sonic 1 looked better than Sonic 2. Not like I'm trying to support any argument, just sayin'.

I also happened to be underwhelmed by Kingdom Hearts. It was the first game I beat that I personally bought for myself for the PS2. The most exciting part for me was everything before the Destiny Islands (including the start screen movie). Those dark stained glass windows of the princesses and the music gave me goosebumps.

I think I also bought Katamari at the same time.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Tue May 03, 2005 5:44 am

Esrever wrote:It kind of reminds me of a debate in the comic world... can good writing save bad art better than good art can save bad writing?

Final Fantasy Tactics, bitches.

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:25 am

^Do you mean to say that FFT has bad art, yet good writing or that it has good art, yet bad writing?

j-man · Post by **j-man** » Tue May 03, 2005 7:18 am

I think it's a crock of shit, imhothx.

Omni Hunter · Post by **Omni Hunter** » Tue May 03, 2005 8:58 am

I just didn't find tactics appealing in any way at all.

CE · Post by CE » Tue May 03, 2005 9:01 am

These questions are for everybody in the thread:

How many times will you play "through" a good video game before you move on to another one?
How often do you go back to an old video game instead of buying a new one?

I ask this because I believe that the value someone puts into the core mechanics is proportional to the amount of re-play time one expects to have. At least in my experience, the people who most emphasize the setting and graphical/sound quality rarely will play through a game, even one they really like, more than three times, whereas a person who emphasizes the core mechanics will play through a game 30, 40, or even more times.

Post by **Squirrelknight** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:05 am

Zeta wrote:It's still lightyears better than the direct to video sequels.

That's not saying much. ... But then again, I <i>loved</i> Kingdom Hearts. The combat is shallow and the camera rides the short bus, but I didn't think the story was <i>that</i> bad. Sure, it was a whoring out of some classic characters, but I'm sure none of us have a problem with whores, as they're some of the best company a man can get. Sure, it seemed like one of those stupid cross-over fanfics, except it was an interesting, well-written cross-over.

And it had a nice themesong. ;D

As for FFT, I think he meant that it had good art and bad writing (or bad translation), cause that game was damn near impossible to understand. I only kept playing because the combat was so fun. And hey, that game was quite pretty for the time it was released. Actually... I still think it's pretty. But then again, Super Mario World still impresses me.

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:39 am

Squirrelknight wrote:I'm sure none of us have a problem with whores, as they're some of the best company a man can get.

Something something Utada Hikaru something something.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Tue May 03, 2005 9:58 am

I think both GG! and Chris are right, I loved Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, I hold it to be one of my favorite games of all time, but even though PP:WW played the same I couldn't really bring myself to play it for more than a few hours. It was just annoying.

While on the other hand, once I beat a game, usually the only reason I ever go back and play it again is because I enjoyed the gameplay.

Gameplay alone isn't enough for me the first time through, but it is usually the only reason I ever pop in an old game. Also I rarely play a game I've already beaten through a second time, I just jump to my favorite parts, so maybe I'm just weird.

Omni Hunter · Post by **Omni Hunter** » Tue May 03, 2005 10:03 am

Not wierd sat all, I do the same. Heck, after completing S3&K I kept on getting lives and continues to see what happens when you break the limit.

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:19 am

How many times will you play "through" a good video game before you move on to another one?

Generally I put at least one hundred hours into a good game before swapping discs.

How often do you go back to an old video game instead of buying a new one?

Well I've been "going back" to Halo 2 for almost four months now. There are a few games I am interested in (Chaos Theory, Lone Wolf, Future Perfect and Doom 3), but I can't bring myself to buy any of them yet. This mostly has to do with money. I have enough of it, but just don't feel like parting with it. I figure it's better to just wait for the prices to drop.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:26 am

Or look for sales.

<A HREF="http://www.cheapassgamer.com/">CAG</A> - I haven't bought a game at full price in almost a year now.

Neo Yi · Post by **Neo Yi** » Tue May 03, 2005 11:37 am

As for FFT, I think he meant that it had good art and bad writing (or bad translation), cause that game was damn near impossible to understand. I only kept playing because the combat was so fun. And hey, that game was quite pretty for the time it was released. Actually... I still think it's pretty. But then again, Super Mario World still impresses me.

I wanted to play FFT, but unfortunately, my brain capacity can't handle the stradegty involved. If only there was someway...

Super mario World...maybe not to me. Yoshi's Island, on the other hand, now THAT was and still is (to me) eye candy!

When it comes to gameplay or how a game is imaged, I guess I'm more tolerable when it comes to certain franchises I like or not like. The only reason I gave KH a chance is not only because I still like most of Square-Enix's work, but I was also at a time where I thought Disney still had a chance to redeem themselves after dishing out crap 98% of the time (I was in the 10th grade, I didn't know any better, so shoot me). I loved it and I await for KH2, no matter what changes they make.

It's like the Jak series all over. Sure, I don't like the "extreme badass" crap they're still putting, but it's part of me being a huge fan of Naughty Dog's work and their franchises that pulls me in. So, in conclusion, I seem to be more tolerable to certain franchises I like and some I don't like in terms of gameplay or whatever appearance they'll uphold next...except Shadow. I still hate Shadow and I'm not liking his new game either. Yea..
~Neo