Don't like anime?

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:02 am

Kishi wrote:Anyway, here are those examples you wanted.

http://www.northarc.com/images/grobo/ginrei2.jpg
http://liquidpenguin.free.fr/flcl/image ... aruko2.jpg
http://www.furinkan.net/favorites/lum.jpg
http://www.absoluteanime.com/plastic_little/index.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/jaike/accp/ ... dvd_or.jpg
http://www.ohtori.hut.ru/Rose-Of-Versaille-3.jpg
http://blogfiles.naver.net/data2/2004/1 ... pingol.jpg
http://www.mikegower.com/unspacy/images/neon01.jpg
http://www.vnn.vn/dataimages/original/i ... raemon.jpg
http://forums.ag.ru/files/lain-bjc-b02.jpg
http://mico-media.com/photos/y/youre_un ... Pics/7.jpg
http://www.animestone.com/galerias/videogirlai/04.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/kayunom ... a_kei1.jpg
http://www.northarc.com/images/orion/Orion.Seska.jpg
http://jajatom.moo.jp/album_e/file/03calender.jpg
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptions ... urita2.jpg
http://www.animetion.co.uk/top%20fives/bulma.jpg
http://www.jasms.de/anime/gsc/gsc_titel01.jpg

Dude, I've just looked at all of those images (the ones that worked anyway) and with the exception of the Doraemom picture they all feature the same bassic drawing style - the same style and shape of eyes, small noses that flick to a point, the same and often large oval-ish heads with a rounded v-shaped chin, the same positioning of all of these features and the same way the cheeks bulge out when shown at an angle. And that's just looking at still character images.

It's the exact bloody same in nearly all the Japanese comics too (the ones that get licensed in America anyway). Coupled with the fact that Japan is one of (if not the) biggest comic producers in the world it's absolutely depressing. The only Japanese comic I can think of off of the top of my head that really stood out artiscally is FLCL (very impressive considering that it was an adaptation of a cartoon that falls into the previously discussed art and design scheme). Unsurprisingly a lot of "manga fans" cried and screamed about how "awful" the art was.

Tsuyoshi-kun · Post by **Tsuyoshi-kun** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:20 am

That's actually my biggest pet peeve about manga and anime; they all look exactly the same. As much as a fan I am, it all blurs together after a while. Occasionally you'll have stuff that looks different, but more often than not, there are six or seven set art styles set across several thousand anime and manga titles.

http://websunday.net/ - Shonen Sunday page

http://jump.shueisha.co.jp/home.html - Weekly Shonen Jump page

Two totally different companies producing magazines with manga with very similar art designs.

I could point out shoujo manga, but that'd be shooting fish in a barrel.

Post by **G.Silver** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:33 am

It's the exact bloody same in nearly all the Japanese comics too (the ones that get licensed in America anyway). Coupled with the fact that Japan is one of (if not the) biggest comic producers in the world it's absolutely depressing

HAH, I was thinking of making this point--now look at American comics and look for some diversity in art styles. I'm sure you'll find some (looking at independent publishers helps), but it will probably be on par with the diversity seen in the Japanese ones, possibly less, considering the sheer volume of manga out there. To the Japanese, our comics are even more homogenous than theirs are.

Two totally different companies producing magazines with manga with very similar art designs.

Look at Marvel and DC (and any other large publisher in the US) and say that. At least in Japan, those companies put out hundreds of pages of comics on a weekly basis--they can't all look exactly the same (doesn't Jump run that Bobobobo Bobobobo comic?). Though, the Shonen books are the most mainstream of the mainstream, you get more variety in Dengeki or RED.

You can also take into account that many "manga" character designs are made less idiocyncratic when converted to "anime" designs, either to make life easier for the artists or to make them more "mainstream" (or even "less ugly"). It may be just another degree of subtlty to some people, like Kishi is seeing with his examples, but it definitly shows that they do it on purpose.

minnietguinea · Post by **minnietguinea** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:59 am

Yeah, the art style is almost all the same, minus minor physical differences. But some are still really fun to watch.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:09 am

G.Silver wrote:
It's the exact bloody same in nearly all the Japanese comics too (the ones that get licensed in America anyway). Coupled with the fact that Japan is one of (if not the) biggest comic producers in the world it's absolutely depressing
HAH, I was thinking of making this point--now look at American comics and look for some diversity in art styles. I'm sure you'll find some (looking at independent publishers helps), but it will probably be on par with the diversity seen in the Japanese ones, possibly less, considering the sheer volume of manga out there. To the Japanese, our comics are even more homogenous than theirs are.

I can't speak for the Japanese comic industry as a whole, only the ones that get licensed in America - and as far as they go the American comics blow them apart when it comes to visual diversity. I'll get some scans later.

But for now I think that even just the front covers and five page previews of Oni Press's offerings shows more diversity than anything I've ever come accross on multiple Japanese comics websites.

I've actively looked for Japanese comics that don't stick to the usual style and with almost no success.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:54 pm

Just a small sampling of examples here. Might I remind you that pretty much all these examples (save Sin City) are from DC and Marvel, both of which aren't independent publishers at all.

<IMG SRC="upload/files/a-xmen.jpg">
Astonishing X-Men, John Cassaday

<IMG SRC="upload/files/forallseasons.jpg">
Superman - For All Seasons, Tim Sale

<IMG SRC="upload/files/hush.jpg">
Batman - Hush, Jim Lee

<IMG SRC="upload/files/kcome.jpg">
Kingdom Come, Alex Ross

<IMG SRC="upload/files/lex.jpg">
Lex Luthor - Man of Steel, Lee Bermejo

<IMG SRC="upload/files/plasticman.jpg">
Plastic Man, Kyle Baker

<IMG SRC="upload/files/punisher.jpg">
The Punisher, Lewis Larosa

<IMG SRC="upload/files/sincity.jpg">
Sin City - The Hard Goodbye, Frank Miller

<IMG SRC="upload/files/watchmen.jpg">
Watchmen, Dave Gibbons

EDIT:
<IMG SRC="upload/files/archie.gif">
Archie

<IMG SRC="upload/files/bone.gif">
Bone, Jeff Smith

<IMG SRC="upload/files/donald.gif">
Donald Duck

Kishi · Post by **Kishi** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:12 pm

I guess this is just one of those cases like where someone thinks all black/white/yellow people look alike. Can't be helped, I guess.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:07 pm

They're still all basically the same. the only difference in the pictures Segaholic posted are degrees of realism (ranging from Plastic Man to JLA). They still all have the same basic design - square jaw, tiny eyes, pronounced nose - in much the same way as anime characters always have rounded jaws, large eyes, and underplayed noses.

I don't count the bones or the ducks, naturally. As they're not people.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:09 pm

That's a really lame way to compare them.

Man, all comics look the same. Everyone has two eyes, two ears, and a nose and mouth. What's up with that?

Post by **Popcorn** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:12 pm

In extremely generalised terms:

Western art = more 'cartoonish', bubbly, rounded, 'squidgy'. To use even more flaky terms, I'd go so far as to say that Western pop art has a more anarchic, 'madcap' feel to it.

Japanese art = more dynamic, stylised and often more regimented/consistent. Somehow it's more 'serious', even in humorous contexts.

That's pretty much the dividing dinstinction as far as I'm concerned.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:17 pm

That's a really lame way to compare them.

Man, all comics look the same. Everyone has two eyes, two ears, and a nose and mouth. What's up with that?

They really ARE similar. It's just that being raised amongst western style art, we're able to see more differences amongst it. I'm sure the same is true for Asian-style art and people raised in asian countries.

As someone said, this is basically another "chinks all look the same" situation. Being raised in a culture saturated with one style or the other gives you the ability to see more subtleties in it. And not being raised in the culture causes people to group everything together in one big box that they don't have the skill to differentiate from. In the same way that someone raised in Asia would be able to pick out different similar people apart, but one raised in a totally caucasian society would say that "all Japs look the same" or something else just as ignorant.

In other words, whatever style you're raised with is going to seem more varied to the insider because he's more attuned to the differences within that style. A musician who studies classical music exclusively wouldn't be able to pick up on subtle melodies in a rock and roll song and so on.

Post by **Pepperidge** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:35 pm

What one person sees as stylization, an other person can see as the norm. I have yet to see a western production that imitates the Japanese style of cartoons or comics to the point where I am actually fooled into thinking it originated from Japan. Likewise, I have yet to see a Japanese production that imitates the western style to the point where I'm convinced that it was western and not Japanese.

Of course, I haven't seen everything, but that just seems to be the logic behind pop art. It depends on whether you view it as a "style" or as convention. An American who's always been immersed with a western style of artwork who attempts to attempts to draw something in "anime style" has already made his first mistake by interpreting it as a stylization.

I think that both western and Japanese pop art are equally diverse, but no matter how they're done, they always seem to inhibit certain characteristics that are distinct to their collective artstyle. The FLCL comic, for instance, while using an extremely unconventional and twisted type of drawing still looks Japanese to me. Same goes for Doraemon.

And then, of course, there's Crayon Shin-Chan:

There's nothing about the artwork that screams "anime", but would you think for a second that this series was conceived by an American?

Post by **Segaholic2** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:00 pm

I'm sorry, but I really can't understand this "black/white/yellow people all look the same to me" deal. Maybe it's because I'm Asian raised here in America, but I can quite easily tell the difference in subtleties between races. Same goes with their drawings.

We were discussing the differences in art styles, not facial features.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:26 pm

Hey, wasn't Crayon Shin-Chan aired on TV in Hawaii?

Double-S- · Post by **Double-S-** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:29 pm

One difference is that when the western want to make realistic looking drawings, they can actually do that. Never seen any comic/manga art from Asia look anywhere near real, at least on the matter of humans.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:37 pm

Post by **Popcorn** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:58 pm

Segaholic2 wrote:I'm sorry, but I really can't understand this "black/white/yellow people all look the same to me" deal. Maybe it's because I'm Asian raised here in America, but I can quite easily tell the difference in subtleties between races.

Yep, it's exactly because you're a damned dirty chink raised in America. You're conditioned to recognise both oriental and western faces as 'normal'. Meanwhile, living in a predominantly white area of a predominantly white country, a lot of oriental people look very 'generic oriental' to me and tend to blur together in my mind-- because I'm trained to quickly recognise oriental features as a standout/defining facial feature and forget/ignore less unusual things like face shape, eyes and so on.

It's like if you got ten similarly-built white males, gave them identical haircuts, and put them all in suits and red baseball caps. Facially they could look as dissimilar as you like, but if you looked at them as a group, your mind wouldn't be able to automatically separate them out so easily-- unless it was conditioned to phase out the red baseball caps. Your mind seeks out the unusual and attributes that as the defining 'recognition' hook.

Of course oriental people look different to me-- but only in the same way that a bunch of guys in red baseball caps would look different from one another. It's purely a illusion of the mind and the way you kind of interpret things. I'd still be able to say if one of the guys in baseball caps was hot.

Post by **Pepperidge** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:01 pm

There's Ebichu. The point I'm trying to make is that these few Japanese titles that do stick out still look "Japanese" even without the usual anime/manga style. There's just a very concentrated way in which "normal" pop artwork developed in Japan, and it's all in the same spectrum. The western spectrum is wider because it's not as concentrated.

Lee, remind me again why you're limited yourself to the stuff on Viz and Tokyopop's website? I think that's the last thing you should be doing.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:30 pm

Popcorn wrote:Yep, it's exactly because you're a damned dirty chink raised in America. You're conditioned to recognise both oriental and western faces as 'normal'.

So does this mean I'm more qualified to say that anime is fairly generic?

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:46 pm

Pepperidge wrote:There's Ebichu. The point I'm trying to make is that these few Japanese titles that do stick out still look "Japanese" even without the usual anime/manga style.

I agree, and I have absolutely no problem with that. The problem I have is with...

Pepperidge wrote:There's just a very concentrated way in which "normal" pop artwork developed in Japan, and it's all in the same spectrum. The western spectrum is wider because it's not as concentrated.

...that small concentrated spectrum and its absolute dominance. It's creative stagnancy. I'd feel the same way if the US biz was filled with very little outside of Jack Kirby imitators.

Pepperidge wrote:Lee, remind me again why you're limited yourself to the stuff on Viz and Tokyopop's website? I think that's the last thing you should be doing.

Show me where else to look and I will look. It's hard without being able to Google search in Japanese (though the few Japanese sites I've looked around so far have been more of the same).

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:46 pm

Wait, Onipress is a mainstream U.S. publisher like DC and Marvel?

This is new news to me.

Post by **Delphine** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:52 pm

I like pretty pictures.

DrAfroluffy · Post by **DrAfroluffy** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:12 pm

For those who dont like anime...............enjoy!
http://animerantpartone.ytmnd.com/

VGJustice · Post by **VGJustice** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:27 pm

Segaholic2 wrote:So does this mean I'm more qualified to say that anime is fairly generic?

Yes. Don't get me wrong, I love anime. But it IS generic. For those that have access to this book, I'd recomend "How NOT to Draw Manga", published by Antarctic Press. That shows specifically that there are only 6 character types and about 7 story types in all known anime and manga. Everything has rules and set-ups that are going to be in EVERY anime you watch. In reality, anime in Japan is almost as bad as American Cinima. There's only one way to make money, and that's not taking risks. Doing something different isn't as safe as doing something new, thus, nothing new. Then, when somebody does something new and it's good, it's copied like crazy! How many times has the "Magical Girl" formula been bastardized? Or the "Giant Robot"? Even relatively new ideas are whored out to the lowest bidder, like "Love Hina". But, that's not to say that ALL anime is bad. Every now and then, there is some truely remarkable work that no one can miss. These are the artists. Everyone else is just a putz.

Post by **G.Silver** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:33 pm

So does this mean I'm more qualified to say that anime is fairly generic?

Absolutely not. If anything, your apparent dislike for anime prevents you from properly immersing yourself to a degree that the subtleties will become more apparent--the selection of anime images Kishi provided would look as diverse as your western selection.

The coloring makes a huge difference (ALL animation is crippled somewhat by the need to be colored, and no manga is done in full color--ironically, the full color pages of manga used in the serials often do not make it into the collected volumes and even when they are they sometimes don't make it into the US versions either, but the color pages are much more idiosyncratic than the b&w ones), but when you boil it down to just the linework all the superhero ones (except for Tim Sale's) look VERY similar to me, the only difference is the level of detail, they are all striving for essentially the same superhero look. Maybe no one makes Wolverine look as fat and constipated as John Cassaday, but nothing stands out to me about it--it looks like generic American comic book art.

Moving on to CP's selection, it's better, but a similar "glossing" effect makes most of them look like they belong in american newspapers, not so much aping a style but "conforming" to what is expected of the strip "medium," and there are plenty of stylistic similarities to go 'round.

We're splitting hairs and this topic is dumb. I'd concede that the anime characters are split from a thinner hair (which is odd, considering what anime hair looks like) but if you can see the differences in the American comics you should just as easily see them in the Japanese ones.