Warning - Vast stupidity

[Double-S-]

So the medium dictates what story ought to be told. That sounds great.

[Delphine]

Well, yeah. You can't tell the same exact story outloud that you can in writing, or in a movie, or with a comic, or with video games. Even if you try to take a story and move it from one medium to another, you have to change it to make it fit.

[Popcorn]

So the medium dictates what story ought to be told. That sounds great.

Of course it does. A story told in a book is different from a story told in a film, simply because of the way the 'reader' recieves the information given to them. If you want a story told through moving pictures, why don't you see a film?

[Double-S-]

So a game's medium dictates that you absolutely must not have scenes that require the player to sit back and listen, rather, they always have to have something to do?

[Green Gibbon!]

POPCORN EDIT:

You know, I'm really sorry about this, but I just hit 'edit' instead of 'quote' and erased your entire damn message.

It's a horrible irony.

[Esrever]

That (edit: What Popcorn said) is more or less what I was trying to say. Or at least, if you want a story told only through moving pictures, why don't you see a film? Again, I am not opposed to all cut scenes, and there are some kinds of events and information that can't be presented in any other way. But the problem isn't when cut scenes are there, it's when they dominate, and I think my standard of "dominate" is probably a lot lower than some of the other people here. A lot of RPGs just seem to me like a series of massive cutscenes spaced by chunks of gameplay that, regardless of whether or not you enjoy them, don't really have any effect on, or even involvement in the narrative whatsoever. It's just like playing a round of snakes and ladders between scenes of a film. I don't see the point in that. I don't see what the inclusion of gameplay is adding to the experience, if it isn't at least a partial degree of immersion.

One of my favourite games ever is Beyond Good and Evil, which of course is bloodly well loaded with cut scenes. But for all of the things that Jade does for you, there are so many more things that you still get to do yourself. And though much of the story is told through cut scenes, much of it is presented through the gameplay as well. BG and E was really the first "cinematic" game I ever played where I felt like it actually worked, like it was mostly balanced.

[Green Gibbon!]

It's a horrible irony.

Fortunately, I have a backup:


So Pop, based on your descriptions of the "ideal" game, I would suggest you play Everquest or Final Fantasy XI, because they match your description of total player/character mergence with limited or no pre-scripted events. You'll also notice that nothing ever happens.

Wait: I didn't ask for 'utter and total freedom'. If I'm playing a game within a certain environment with certain controls, of course there are limitations and rules. Being allowed to control Snake all the time doesn't automatically remove all elements and structure.

It does when you're dealing with a narrative. Events and cutscenes limit the story in the same way that walls limit the physical playfied. They need to be there otherwise you risk losing structure.

Of course your argument to that would be, "Well then write another story," but the point that you're missing is that, no matter what story you're trying to tell, it will have points where certain events need to happen and they need to happen in certain ways. Those are the very building blocks of narrative.

You seem to have this perception that the only "ideal" game solution is to give the player utter and total control over the central character at all times, not only in his actions, but down to his thoughts. The thing you don't seem to understand is that it's only one possibility, and even then, you must be following some form of structure, not only in the playfield, but also in narrative otherwise you're just messing around with no goals to achieve. Even though I may be given control of a certain character in a certain situation, it's not some god given law of game design that I have to be that character. That's an absolutely narrow-minded view to take. What about situations where I am controlling multiple characters? I can't possibly be all of them, but I can guide them as they fulfill their various roles in the events that are transpiring, and that is no less viable a solution than creating my Dark Elf in Lineage.

This doesn't "contradict" the medium any more than filming a movie in black and white 'contradicts' the availability of color film. Just because the option is there doesn't mean it's the best way to approach the problem.

[Popcorn]

Insofar as I can recall, Gibs' argument just there before I destroyed it all in one fell swoop was that it's impossible to have a structured, scripted, linear game without taking control away from the player. To that I reply: that's completely untrue, and Half-Life 2 is proof.

Stories can still be linear, scripted and narrative-driven. The secret is to let the player be the main character instead of Cloud.

[Popcorn]

Even though I may be given control of a certain character in a certain situation, it's not some god given law of game design that I have to be[i/] that character. That's an absolutely narrow-minded view to take. What about situations where I am controlling multiple characters? I can't possibly be all of them, but I can guide them as they fulfill their various roles in the events that are transpiring

This is the first point that's actually gone some way to making sense. I'm all for allowing the player to adopt roles-- I don't think, for example, that all games should be first-person; I'm totally up for pretending to be Snake. However, I'm not convinced that 'guiding' Snake is as rewarding or fulfilling an experience as 'being' Snake.

[Segaholic2]

If all you're talking about boils down to a more rewarding experience over another, isn't that just opinion? You can't say that every other method is inferior based merely on that.

[Popcorn]

If all you're talking about boils down to a more rewarding experience over another, isn't that just opinion? You can't say that every other method is inferior based merely on that.

Yep, it's my opinion.

[Green Gibbon!]

Stories can still be linear, scripted and narrative-driven. The secret is to let the player be the main character instead of Cloud.

And as I pointed out previously, that's a load of horseshit, not to mention an extremely limiting philosophy. Whether you're guiding the character or outright slipping into his skin is irrelevant. Each certainly has its appeal, and I've immensely enjoyed games of both types. Since Esrever brought up Beyond Good & Evil, that's an excellent example. At no point did I ever feel I was Jade - how could I ever put myself in the mind of a woman in the first place - but I was more than happy to guide her on her quest and make sure she was jumping when she needed to jump or flipping switches in the proper order. Those moments of story progression where the game assumed control were not at all distracting, and in fact necessary to clarify my immediate goals.

[Popcorn]

Stories can still be linear, scripted and narrative-driven. The secret is to let the player be the main character instead of Cloud.

And as I pointed out previously, that's a load of horseshit, not to mention an extremely limiting philosophy. Whether you're guiding the character or outright slipping into his skin is irrelevant. Each certainly has its appeal, and I've immensely enjoyed games of both types. Since Esrever brought up Beyond Good & Evil, that's an excellent example. At no point did I ever feel I was Jade - how could I ever put myself in the mind of a woman in the first place - but I was more than happy to guide her on her quest and make sure she was jumping when she needed to jump or flipping switches in the proper order. Those moments of story progression where the game assumed control were not at all distracting, and in fact necessary to clarify my immediate goals.

I guess that's where your horseshit becomes my golden truth, then, because I did find it distracting. Allowing the player to 'guide' your story's protagonist damages their integrity as a character, and encasing the interactive portions of the game in non-interactive elements damages the immersion of the game experience.

[Green Gibbon!]

I guess that's where your horseshit becomes my golden truth, then, because I did find it distracting. Allowing the player to 'guide' your story's protagonist damages their integrity as a character, and encasing the interactive portions of the game in non-interactive elements damages the immersion of the game experience.

Then again, you're arguing that the only ideal game is an MMORPG. It seems to be serving up exactly the kind of mythical "greater" experience you're describing.

[Popcorn]

No, I'm describing Half-Life 2.

[Green Gibbon!]

And MMORPG's.

[Popcorn]

So what's your point? I think Half-Life 2 is the best game made yet, and MMORPGs one day will be.

[Segaholic2]

I guess that's where your horseshit becomes my golden truth, then, because I did find it distracting. Allowing the player to 'guide' your story's protagonist damages their integrity as a character, and encasing the interactive portions of the game in non-interactive elements damages the immersion of the game experience.

Then this is merely a personal problem on your part rather than an inherent flaw in the method described. If you can't enjoy guiding Super Mario Mario through levels in the Mushroom Kingdom because the cutscene of him walking up to the castle breaks the immersion of the game experience, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Not every game is Half-Life 2. And I will definitely vote against the opinion that HL2 is the "best game made yet". You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, though; just don't spout it off as a universal truth.

[Green Gibbon!]

I think you're deluding yourself. There is no end-all "perfect" solution to videogames. The beauty of the medium is in its versatility, and to limit your entire philosophy to a particular design variable utterly misses the point. You can play make-believe, you can play God, or you can do both or neither, it doesn't sacrifice the "integrity" of anything.

I'm sure Half-Life 2 is an excellent game, I will eventually play it, but I've been against the term "best game ever" since the whole Mario 64 thing. There is no such thing as an end-all solution to the medium. If there were, it wouldn't really be a medium.

[Popcorn]

Then this is merely a personal problem on your part rather than an inherent flaw in the method described. If you can't enjoy guiding Super Mario Mario through levels in the Mushroom Kingdom because the cutscene of him walking up to the castle breaks the immersion of the game experience, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I hate this argument. "If you don't like something, that's YOUR fault"-- well, of course it is, in some sense: I'm merely explaining why I dislike something. In the same way, it's entirely your fault if you don't enjoy being stabbed in the face. There's nothing intrinsically, externally wrong or bad about being stabbed, it's only your reaction to it that gives it any negative or positive value.

Meanwhile: Mario doesn't really apply to my argument because it's not a narrative-driven video game and doesn't really rely on uninteractive elements at all, unlike something like Final Fantasy, which I am arguing against.

Not every game is Half-Life 2. And I will definitely vote against the opinion that HL2 is the "best game made yet".

Yeah, and I bet you like Suikoden instead.

[Ash Holt]

How the fuck do you manage to argue about cutscenes for three pages?

Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. When they don't, it's obvious why.

[Popcorn]

I think you're deluding yourself. There is no end-all "perfect" solution to videogames.

Oh lord, isn't there? I'm just describing what I think makes games good. Didn't you just say all games should have good controls?

I'm sure Half-Life 2 is an excellent game, I will eventually play it, but I've been against the term "best game ever" since the whole Mario 64 thing. There is no such thing as an end-all solution to the medium. If there were, it wouldn't really be a medium.

I'll give you that one. I should've said 'favourite'.

[Spazz]

How the fuck do you manage to argue about cutscenes for three pages?

Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. When they don't, it's obvious why.

I agree. The MGS games' cutscenenes have a little monotony, but they're not that bad. It's supposed to be like a "playable movie."

[Segaholic2]

I hate this argument. "If you don't like something, that's YOUR fault"-- well, of course it is, in some sense: I'm merely explaining why I dislike something. In the same way, it's entirely your fault if you don't enjoy being stabbed in the face. There's nothing intrinsically, externally wrong or bad about being stabbed, it's only your reaction to it that gives it any negative or positive value.

This is exactly why you're wrong. Being stabbed in the face is something that is universally disliked and something that immediately evokes pain, discomfort, physical disfigurement and general feelings of displeasure. You could say that there is a universal measure for why being stabbed in the face is bad.

Since when was there such a similar standard for cutscenes in videogames? It's true that there are such universally bad things in videogames, like extremely cheap AI, terribly bad graphics and music to the point of distraction, and such and so forth. Why are all cutscenes immediately bad in the same manner, and since when did total immersion become the ultimatum for how games should be?

Yeah, and I bet you like Suikoden instead.

Never played it, but been meaning to get around to it sometime before I die.

[Green Gibbon!]

I'm just describing what I think makes games good.

Okay, well then I am arguing that I don't think it's the sole factor that makes a game good. I don't even think it's necessary to make a game good. In fact, I am saying that its presence has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the game at all.