What comes after perfection?

[Green Gibbon!]

I think I'm the only Suikoden fan around here, which is a shame, but there was a part of me that was a little uncertain about Suikoden IV. And there still is in a way, but at just under 10 hours in, it's certainly grabbed me.

The archipelago setting was definitely a good idea, not only because it's a change for the series, but also because there just aren't many good sailing, swashbuckling, pirates and ships RPG's out there. (In fact, there aren't many good games period with the high seas setting, which is kind of a shame.) The other thing I really like is the fact that you have full control over the camera at all times. You can actually switch between third and first person on the fly, which I think is a really fantastic idea for a game like this. The only other 3D RPG I can think of that actually gives you a 3D perspective (as opposed to a fixed camera or traditional overhead) is Skies of Arcadia. It's a simple freedom, but it enhances the sense of immersion exponentially, and it baffles me as to why it isn't incorporated more often.

The environments themselves are much larger than Suikoden 3, but - and perhaps I only notice it because of the increased camera freedom - there are alot of things that just seem incomplete. In one scene, there are overturned bottles on a table top, but apparently the modeler wasn't informed that the bottles would indeed be overturned at some point, because they had no bottoms. Also, for whatever reason, the water's edge doesn't go all the way up to the pier, so there's like this gap between the dock and the water, and it just looks really weird. There are issues like this all over the place, and while it's true that the Suikoden games have never exactly been graphical showcases, it really just feels incomplete.

That aside, my only other immediate qualm is the fact that you can now only have 4 people in combat at once, as opposed to the usual 6. Y'know, with 100+ playable characters... dammit, give me back my 6-person parties. The reduction in active team members also eliminates the old "front row / back row" dynamic, which, and I kind of hate to say it, was pretty much the only strategic element to basic combat.

But the main appeal of the Suikoden games has always been the unusually intelligent writing, and IV certainly seems to have that in place, at least so far. I was scared to death when I heard they actually had spoken dialogue this time, and that was just on principle, to say nothing of what I feared the English dub was going to be like. To my astonishment, the acting is good. Like, really good. I suppose it helps that they're reading from a script that comes off more like a real story as opposed to typical froofy videogame cutscenes. Spoken dialogue aside, though, most of the translation is pretty weak, which is a real disappointment after Suikoden 3. 1 and 2 both had pretty banal translation jobs... in 2, there were even certain out-of-the-way dialogue boxes that someone neglected to translate at all, but Suikoden 3 was a big improvement. (Actually, the script editing for 3 is credited to Lani Minella...) We're back to square one, though, and a game this story-rich really deserves better.

So anyway, there are some technical issues, but as far as storytelling, character design, and scenario writing go, this is still a hop, skip, and jump beyond everything else out there. It just remains to be seen whether or not it'll live up to the utter perfection that was Suikoden 3. It's still early, I'll post more thoughts later.

[Ngangbius]

I was anticipating this title...well until I've heard form various RPG/Suikoden fans from other gaming boards I lurk on that this installment sucked.

[Green Gibbon!]

Had you played the first three?

In alot of ways, this almost seems like more of a direct sequel (or prequel, as the case may be) to Suikoden 1 than 2 or 3. It's like they're saying, "If Suikoden 2 and especially 3 had never happened, this might be the direction we'd have gone..."

I've found the story compelling so far, but in general this doesn't even seem like it's in the same league as Suikoden 3. I wouldn't say it outright sucks (at least not yet), but based on the progression the series was making up to this point, it looks like they finally dropped the ball on this one, which is a real tragedy.

[Popcorn]

Suikoden sucks btw.

[Dache]

Suikoden sucks btw.

OH SHIT HIT THE DECK GG'S COMING BACK

[Green Gibbon!]

Suikoden sucks btw.

So does your mom, but you never complain about her.

[j-man]

What's to complain about when it comes to Popcorn's mum?

[Green Gibbon!]

Dude, first of all, there's the kicking, and that shit she likes to do with dog poo...

[Ngangbius]

Had you played the first three?

~~Beat the first one. It was decent for an early-gen PS1 RPG and I even found it to be a bit more enjoyable in ways than FF7.

~~Didn't finish the second one because I got distracted by other games. I mostly lost my place (I'm think I'm somewhere in the middle of the storyline), and I have a feeling I have to start a whole new game to what many consider the best out of the Suikoden series. Thank goodness, I actually own it(and I only had to pay $20).

~~Didn't finish the third one because again, I was distracted by other games. Though, unlike Suikoden 2, I know exactly where I stopped at(Hugo's 3rd chapter). This game seems to get blasted in contrast to the prequel though it probably has to do with that the battle system seems to be slower than the previous installment and that I heard that the story doesn't go anywhere at times. *shrugs* But, I personally liked what I've played and many others do also so I hear mixed reviews about Suikoden 3.


But really, I'm not that interested in Suikoden IV.

[Green Gibbon!]

The first one was good, the second was awesome, and the third was amazing. There are certain things about the fourth one that are still so Suikoden good, and other things that kind of leave you going, "Why... did you guys do this?" I'll probably finish it, but it is a couple steps backwards. At least Jeane is a playable character, finally, and she jiggles and everything.

From what I understand, this one was made by a different team. The Suikoden 3 team is working on Oz, which isn't looking all that stellar...

[plasticwingsband]

I've played, beaten, & gotten all 108 Stars in Suikoden I & II several times. But I've never had the opportunity to play III.

At the time Suikoden III came out I always meant to play it, but due to the fact that I didn't have access to a PS2 at the time, and that I heard that Viktor and Flik weren't in the third installment, I never got around to playing it and didn't have much intention to.

Suikoden I & II are near the very top of my list for my favorite RPGs of all time, but I've always heard incredibly mixed opinions of Suikoden III.

So what's so good about it, GG! ? How is it different from the first 2 installments, aside from changing to a 3D perspective?

[Green Gibbon!]

They changed alot of things for the third one, which I guess is why some old-school fanboys got pissed. As far as the traditional Suikoden formula goes, they really did perfect it with the second one, so they went in a totally different direction with the third. The whole first half of the game is played in chunks through the perspectives of three (sometimes four) different characters. Only one of the characters is actually engaging in the traditional "build your castle" stuff, and although all the parties do eventually converge, it doesn't happen until the latter half of the game. It works wonderfully, though, you really get to see the ideological clashes that the series is famous for from all angles, and it's also the series pinnacle in terms of character design. The other benefit to this is that, because you essentially have four or five different "groups" of characters, they all have stand-out personalities. There isn't as much arbitrary "recruit this random character here" sort of thing as there is in the prior two. By the time the parties actually converge to stock the castle, you're already good friends with almost everybody.

Another clever twist is that the traditional nameless Suikoden "hero" (the guy in red who you control and get to name) is already dead by the time the game starts, so you eventually get to choose his successor out of one of the three main characters.

I suppose some people would find this form of progression a bit slow, but I say that's how Suikoden should be. It's a more mellow kind of game than your typical good-guys-bad-guys-save-the-world schtick. I think mostly the people who complain are the kind of people who griped when FF7 went sci-fi, or the kind of people who boycotted Subway when they took bologna off the menu.

You should definitely play 3, especially if you've done the rounds with the original two. No Viktor or Flik, but believe me when I say that you won't miss them. (There are actually only a small handfull of returning characters, and most of them are not the ones you'd expect.)


I think what bothers me most about Suikoden 4 is that it does go back to the conventional old way, which was really perfected with Suikoden 2...

[Green Gibbon!]

Suikoden 4 spoiler below.





So I crashed on this deserted island, and this dude on my party's all like, "oh my god, we're gonna shrivel up and die!" So you have a choice, you can say: "Then we'll get out of here." or "This isn't so bad." So of course I choose the second choice, then this chick on my party's all like, "I think you'd better reevaulate the situation." So then I'm all like, "I'm serious, I want to live here." Then this other chick's all like, "We'll just run back and forth all over this island forever!" And then I replied, "C'mon, really. I'm thinking beach house." So then the cat dude on my party's all like, "Well... should we, then?"

Then it starts getting all Metal Gear fucked up. I get a great big "The End", but then the game continues... only all the character portraits are doodles. So we have three daily tasks that get assigned, and everytime I go into the cave, I encounter this mermaid chick who runs away as I approach. And this happens again over and over and over. After about four cycles, it finally occurred to me that when the game said "The End", it really was the end. I ran around for like an hour and a half in my Twilight Zone ending thinking, "Man, how do I proceed?"

Of course they don't let you save, so I just load up my game from the point right before... but still, I'm not sure how I feel about this Choose Your Own Adventure weirdness. I wonder if Kojima was on the development staff...

[Baba O'Reily]

Weird. Now I want to play it.

[Green Gibbon!]

I dunno, it's like... I guess if it had been Metal Gear I'd have been okay with it, but it doesn't belong in my Suikoden. What's going on here?

[Locit]

That's actually rather cool.

[Green Gibbon!]

Screw you guys!

[Cuckooguy]

I think that's pretty funny. As much as I love Skies of Arcadia, there were a bunch of instances where you had to make a decision, but the outcome for both was the same anyway, usually because Aika would scold you or something. I think there are a couple of instances like that in Lunar 1, but when you choose the wrong choice, the party scolds you until you make the right decision that forwards the story. Then I'm like "Then what's this decision making for?!?!" I suppose it's to make you feel more part of the game when you choose the right decision, but when I choose the "wrong" one, and the party or whoever scolds me for forever until I choose the right decision, it kind of alienates me.

Of course, I wouldn't want something like the instance GG! mentioned to happen all the time. I mean, if it happens once, it's certainly something to laugh at. If it happens twice, they might be pushing it.

[Double-S-]

In Skies it was for the Hero ranking.

[Knuckles Dawson]

In Skies it was for the Hero ranking.

On both of my game saves, I was able to achieve Vyse the Legend, and on my second I legitimately got Vyse, Fina, Aika, Drachma, and Gilder to Lvl 99. I could beat the First and Second Form of Ramirez in like, 6 turns total. It was quite the sight.

Die.

[Green Gibbon!]

I was able to achieve Vyse the Legend, and on my second I legitimately got Vyse, Fina, Aika, Drachma, and Gilder to Lvl 99.

And what of poor, neglected, faggy pants Enrique?


The Twilight Zone ending didn't bother me on prinicple, it's just the sort of thing that feels really out-of-place in Suikoden. But one of the things I am beginning to understand about Suikoden 4 is that it is not really a Suikoden game. Or if it is, it's Sukoden 1.5 more than 4.

[Double-S-]

Nobody cares about Enrique. And for good reason.

Legend status is pretty easy to achieve. I think the highest I got my characters to was an average of level 65 or so. Can't remember.

[Green Gibbon!]

<img src="http://www.segawow.com/ea_le/img/chara/m_enrique01.jpg">

Take that, you cur!


Legend status was easy to achieve in the Dreamcast version (you almost had to try to not get it), but it's a bitch on the GameCube version.

[Green Gibbon!]

Sweet merciful heavens.

I missed a character.


And it's too late to go back and get him.



This will be the first Suikoden game where I did not get all 108 stars.

My soul is crushed. Everything I knew and believed in suddenly has no meaning. It's true that this isn't as good as Suikoden 3 or even Suikoden 2, but... I wanted to complete it..... I don't have the will to start over.... but now I've lost the will to finish......


What... what should I do?

[chriscaffee]

Play Halo 2.