Tanks Threaten Protesters in LA

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Zeta
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Post by Zeta »

People are listening. All the time, everywhere. The people who aren't will not listen regardless of the circumstances. 100,000 people who come together on a cause have more power on paper than they do in physical force.
See, that's where I disagree. Most people don't listen. If an issue doesn't affect them directly, they'll go along wrapped up in their own little worlds ignoring everything else that happens until it bites them on their ass.

You may live in an area where everybody notices civl and political issues - but in most of the places I live in - there's a minority on one side - a minority on on the other -and TONS AND TONS of people in the middle who aren't even paying attention.

I've seen it with my own two eyes.

Someone will bring up a civil or political issue, and 80% of the people who overhear the conversation will go "What's this? I haven't heard about it?"

And of course they have, but nobody has ever gave them a reason to actually open their eyes and pay attention to it.

People don't listen. They ignore everyone who doesn't directly concern them. And sometimes enlightening them about an issue can actually have results. I have ALSO seen this. Sometimes people WILL care, even if it doesn't directly affect them. Sometimes they can develop intelligent opinions.

But if they never actually go around looking or paying attention to issues, I don't see how putting up some signs and peacefully standing around for a couple of hours could possibly hurt. If nothing else, at least it builds solidarity among the protestors themselves.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

The only intelligent response to a group of loud, angry, and usually disillusioned people with signs is to completely ignore them and everything they stand for. Happily, most people have enough intelligence to do just that: ignore protesters.

And I've seen <I>that</I> with my own two eyes.

I hate it when protesters approach me (and other random people) with their causes here on campus (we're right next to the state capitol, so it happens quite often). You just keep walking and give them a negative response, hopefully one with a snide and sarcastic edge to it for bonus points. I don't care if I agree with their cause or not (though I usually don't); if they have the gall to come push their ideals on me when I'm out walking, they deserve whatever nasty reply they get.

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Post by Grant »

I think Zeta's right on the money here.

People don't actively search for information that doesn't directly affect them. Picketing is all about raising awareness for their cause.

Some people will disagree, some won't care, but the picketers obviously aren't doing it for them. It's for people that could potentially side with them if they were more aware of the issue.

Frankly, saying that people are listening or paying attention all the time is far more idealistic than picketing.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

Nothing of what you've said has anything to do with protesting except the last paragraph, and to that I say, the same time and resources that go into gathering in a public place and picketing could go into things more constructive and effective. If you just feel like socializing with those who hold the same opinions as you, you can organize a goddamn gathering at a steak house or something, rather than bothering disinterested people in the middle of the street.

You say that people are ignorant to the issues around them and that's entirely true -- of everybody. Even so-called minorities. If they're so wrapped up with their own self-pity that they can think of nothing better to do than whine in the middle of the street, they don't deserve my pity, or my attention.

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Post by Zeta »

The only intelligent response to a group of loud, angry, and usually disillusioned people with signs is to completely ignore them and everything they stand for. Happily, most people have enough intelligence to do just that: ignore protesters
I'm not advocating a group of people getting together, acting pissed off, and yelling at passerby. I'm advocating the kind of protest where people peacefully gather, post some signs, and hold up fliers.

You say that people are ignorant to the issues around them and that's entirely true -- of everybody. Even so-called minorities. If they're so wrapped up with their own self-pity that they can think of nothing better to do than whine in the middle of the street, they don't deserve my pity, or my attention.
It's that attitude that just shows how much people need to be recognized. A damn letter-writing campaign isn't going to do any more than kill off some trees, in some rare circumstances. People don't HAVE to pay attention to pieces of paper, memos, or emails. They can read two lines and if it doesn't agree with them on a personal level - into the trash it goes.

When you're dealing with an actual group of people, you can't ignore them so easily. And even with negative response, it's bound to reach a few more people - or at least mobilize the people who already support the cause.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

So you're saying that <I>forcing</I> people to pay attention to stuff they'd rather not listen to is a better alternative to making it available to those who would?

Good thing everybody doesn't run on that idea. Your point is that everybody's ideas are equally justified and deserve to be <I>heard by everyone</I> just as much as everyone else's ideas. If that's the case, then those protesters can take their cause and shove it, because my ideals sure as hell don't include listening to them. "And even with negative response, it's bound to reach a few more people." Them.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

People don't HAVE to pay attention to pieces of paper, memos, or emails. They can read two lines and if it doesn't agree with them on a personal level - into the trash it goes.
Wonderful, that way you don't piss anybody off.

Everybody has their own concerns, personal or otherwise. By picketing on your own behalf, you are getting in people's faces going: "my problems are more important than yours, look at me." There's no way you can justify that sort of self-righteousness.

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Post by Delphine »

Jesus fucking Christ.

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Post by Zeta »

Everybody has their own concerns, personal or otherwise. By picketing on your own behalf, you are getting in people's faces going: "my problems are more important than yours, look at me." There's no way you can justify that sort of self-righteousness
Jesus Fucking Christ! So we should all just deal with our own problems because everyone has them? Great idea! Don't try to improve or change anything, because "everyone has problems". Give up now. Life sucks. Might as well kill yourself, because there's no way to change things for the better.

If a large fucking group has problems, how can you possibly fault them for wanting to have their problems addressed? That's like telling someone who comes into the emergency room with a nail through the forehead to "Suck it up, baby - we all have problems, and there's nothing we can do to fix them. So don't bother complaining to ME about it!".
Wonderful, that way you don't piss anybody off.
You know what? Sometimes people NEED to be pissed off. In fact, it's problably for the best. People SHOULD be angry because of some issues. Covering your head and not complaining because you're too afraid to make someone mad is just being a pussy. "Oh, woe is me! No one will listen to me - so why bother trying? It's hopless!" Fuck that shit.
So you're saying that forcing people to pay attention to stuff they'd rather not listen to is a better alternative to making it available to those who would?
Do you think it's FORCING someone to pay attention when a store has a sale? Or blows up a balloon outside their business to get advertisement? Protesting is just advertising for politics. If you have a problem with it, you should also have a problem with videogame conventions. Or a dancing entertainer outside a store.

"How dare they try to get people's attention! No one should bother anyone EVER!", I mean, what the hell, man? How are people picketing and handing out fliers for a political cause any worse than sending a bunch of kids in costumes out into the streets to hand out fliers for a hamburger joint?!

Good thing everybody doesn't run on that idea. Your point is that everybody's ideas are equally justified and deserve to be heard by everyone just as much as everyone else's ideas.
Yes, but unforunately, not everybody pays attention to everyone's ideas. Which is why we have political movements in the first place.
If that's the case, then those protesters can take their cause and shove it, because my ideals sure as hell don't include listening to them.
I don't see it killing you. It mildly annoys you. If you don't like it, just walk on by. The protest isn't for people like you, then. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it fails for everyone else, too.

All I'm hearing from you two can be boiled down into: "Protesters annoy me and inconvience me on ocassion. Therefore, protesting is entirely worthless and bad."

Which is like me saying: "The sun gives me burns on ocassion and it shines in my eyes. Therefore, the sun is bad and should be done away with."
Last edited by Zeta on Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

My point was that the whole idea of "protesting" is an entirely hypocritical activity. They go out to bug people with the notion that everybody's voice should be heard, but all they do is force their ideas on others. Why anyone should have to put up with that is beyond me.

You don't see commercials and advertisements attacking you when the TV is off, eh?

You want your problems fixed? What good is it going to do to go outside and whine about it to everyone you see? Do something constructive, like shoving your head down the toilet and flushing.

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Post by Zeta »

My point was that the whole idea of "protesting" is an entirely hypocritical activity. They go out to bug people with the notion that everybody's voice should be heard, but all they do is force their ideas on others. Why anyone should have to put up with that is beyond me.
How is it hypocritical unless they're PREVENTING the oposing side from protesting, too? Everyone can protest - the people for an issue and against the issue. If one side choses not to do that, you can hardly call it hypocracy.

It's not about FORCING your opinions on others. Nobody's going to FORCE someone to change their mind in a protest. It's about getting their opinions HEARD. Making someone listen and making someone agree with you are two very different things.

And again, who says you have to put up with it? As long as they don't surround you on all sides and beat you until you agree with them, I see nothing to put up with then some people talking. And if you can't put up with that - you should just pierce your eardrums right now.

You don't see commercials and advertisements attacking you when the TV is off, eh?
No, except on magazines. And in skywriting. And on airplanes. And busses. And in videogames. And from spokespeople. And fliers. And t-shirts. And in movies. At sporting events. And buildings.


It's SOOO easy to escape advertising.
You want your problems fixed? What good is it going to do to go outside and whine about it to everyone you see?
Again. Advertising. Not everyone has a fucking fortune to spend on TV commericals and magazine advertisements and the like.
Do something constructive, like shove your head down the toilet and flush.
Again. Your proof on protests being unconstructive comes from the fact that they personally don't work for you.

Which is, again, like me saying that vagina can't turn ANYONE on because it doesn't turn ME on.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

So we should all just deal with our own problems because everyone has them?
Going out in the street with signs and whines isn't even solving your own goddamn problem, much less other peoples' problems. It's just self-glorifying brouhaha. Even if your goal is to make people aware of your situation or the situation of your group, you're still essentially saying that your problem is more worthy of attention than another group protesting for a different cause. Running around the street going "boo-hoo" will make people aware of your problem, sure, just like a screaming child makes people aware that he is unhappy. It won't make them care, in fact, they'd rather you just shutup.

I'm sick of the whining. Everybody can find something to bitch about. People can single themselves into minorities based on any endless number of criteria, from race to gender to religion to employment status to ethnic groups to schools to hair color and whatever else you can imagine. There's plenty for everyone to be concerned about, yet people are only concerned about themselves, and protesting is as much an example of this as ignoring the issues.

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Post by Delphine »

Hahahahaha.

"I don't like seeing protesters, so therefore protesters are stupid and shouldn't bother."

I see my Jesus fucking Christ and raise it a Holy fucking Mother of God.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

Though incidentally, it also pisses me off when people hand out flyers advertising Joe's burger joint or whatever.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

Wonderful argument there, Del. Your grasp of this situation amazes me.

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Post by Delphine »

Green Gibbon! wrote:Wonderful argument there, Del. Your grasp of this situation amazes me.
I meant Holic, not you.

Incidentally, there isn't enough fucking alcohol in this house.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

Katherine brought up some really good points while we were discussing this on the walk back.

The whole problem with it completely goes against the idea of freedom of expression. It's <I>not right</I> to force your ideas on anyone like that, regardless of your views. For example, I'm pro-life, but I think that the people that stand outside abortion clinics and picket against abortion are very, very wrong. When you get down to it, all you're left with is the receiver's choice. That's the only thing that matters, and the only thing that protesters are appealing to. If they don't want to hear what you have to say, then they didn't agree with you in the first place and all you're doing is public harassment. If they wish to join in your little activity of handing out flyers or yelling to people or whatever, then they probably agreed with you to begin with. Protesting is one of the worst methods of "raising awareness" that I can think of. There are <I>so many</I> other ways to raise awareness, almost all of which are more constructive and less annoying.

<I><B>Persuasion is something that should be done on a personal level, not a public soap box.</B></I> If I had a friend that wanted to get an abortion, I would do everything within my limits to try to persuade her not to. I can do this because I know her as a friend, and hopefully she would value my opinion enough to listen to it. But in the end, I can't <I>really</I> do anything to persuade her, can I? It's completely her choice, and I should respect that. Standing in front of an abortion clinic and verbally assaulting anyone that approaches violates everyone's personal choice (not to mention space).

You got the part about advertising right. Protesting is nothing but advertising your cause. Not a bad thing to do, yeah? Look at it this way: Businesses advertise. Why? Because they want to get ahead of the other companies, to push their products ahead of everyone else's, to brainwash you into choosing their stuff. You like that? So you want to say that a technique used on something so petty as a consumer product should be implemented on something so important as a political choice? Sounds like you're cheapening the cause.

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Post by Green Gibbon! »

YOU CAN'T ADVOCATE THE USE OF ALCOHOL IN THIS FORUM!

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Post by Zeta »

Even if your goal is to make people aware of your situation or the situation of your group, you're still essentially saying that your problem is more worthy of attention than another group protesting for a different cause.
How is it saying that, may I ask? How is asking for help saying "Oh, save the dolphins - but don't save the orangutangs."

Obviously, a protest is saying that when it comes to an opposing side - say, the side that wants to drain the oceans versus the side that wants to save the dolphins.

But I don't see how a protest to . . . make the air cleaner would be saying to people "We're more important than the people who want freedom for Tibet!" I don't see how they'd conflict unless they're two opposing sides.
Running around the street going "boo-hoo" will make people aware of your problem, sure, just like a screaming child makes people aware that he is unhappy. It won't make them care, in fact, they'd rather you just shutup.
You seem to have this view that ALL protests must be a bunch of whiny people crying and throwing rocks at passerby and stealing their money. I don't SUPPORT that kind of protest. That's harassment.

I support a group of people calmly making people in the vicinity aware of their problem through open discussion, handing out information, and politely approaching passerby and asking for their support.

If it inconviences a few people, that's unfortunate. But unless you're such a whiny little bitch that having a person stop you on the way home for work and politely ask if you'd like to wear a certain-colored ribbon and take a flier - it's not hurting anyone.

Of course, if having a group of people put up signs and hand out information makes you so upset that it just ruins your whole day and makes you want to lash out at the world - I submit that it's YOU, who have the problem, sir.
I'm sick of the whining. Everybody can find something to bitch about. People can single themselves into minorities based on any endless number of criteria, from race to gender to religion to employment status to ethnic groups to schools to hair color and whatever else you can imagine. There's plenty for everyone to be concerned about, yet people are only concerned about themselves, and protesting is as much an example of this as ignoring the issues.
So by your logic, unless a group protests for EVERYONE and EVERY ISSUE all at once - no one should protest at all? Guh?

Yes, everyone has their problems. That doesn't mean that every group should be forced to suffer on their own. If that were the case, we might as well throw the whole political system out the window because everyone has their own issues and no one could ever possibly agree on everything - so what's the point in trying?

What's wrong with trying to ask for compromise? For appealing to people and their sense of decency or logic or charity or whatever?

I don't see how a peaceful, civil, protest could do anything worse than make a couple of whiny bitches complain because "Some lady stopped me for three seconds outside my building and I'm so mad I could just KILL SOMEONE! How dare someone from a group of people attempt to talk to me or share their opinions! KILL GRAH!"

Which is still the very strange sort of view I'm getting from you two.
You got the part about advertising right.
Protesting is nothing but advertising your cause. Not a bad thing to do, yeah? Look at it this way: Businesses advertise. Why? Because they want to get ahead of the other companies, to push their products ahead of everyone else's, to brainwash you into choosing their stuff. You like that? So you want to say that a technique used on something so petty as a consumer product should be implemented on something so important as a political choice? Sounds like you're cheapening the cause.
See, now I see it the opposite way - finally putting advertising techniques to use for something less petty than making more cold, hard, cash.
Last edited by Zeta on Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Delphine »

Green Gibbon! wrote:YOU CAN'T ADVOCATE THE USE OF ALCOHOL IN THIS FORUM!
See, you drive me crazy. You piss me all the fuck off and then you go and make me (platonically) love you again. I wish you'd quit doing that.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

Zeta wrote:Yes, everyone has their problems. That doesn't mean that every group should be forced to suffer on their own. If that were the case, we might as well throw the whole political system out the window because everyone has their own issues and no one could ever possibly agree on everything - so what's the point in trying?

What's wrong with trying to ask for compromise? For appealing to people and their sense of decency or logic or charity or whatever?
Why does it have to be in the form of a protest? Why can't it be something else that is less invasive? I don't have anything against advocating a cause, so long as you're not invading someone else's privacy.

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Post by Zeta »

Why does it have to be in the form of a protest? Why can't it be something else that is less invasive? I don't have anything against advocating a cause, so long as you're not invading someone else's privacy.
Invading someone else's privacy? Erm, do the protests in your town march into people's houses or something? It was my understanding that protests tended to happen in public places, like parks and town squares and such. I don't think that's invasive . . . seeing as how you're out in the open and everyone can see you and everything already . . . unless you have some weird invisibility power.

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Post by Segaholic2 »

I was under the impression that most people don't like being approached by strangers when they're outside, but maybe I'm wrong.

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Post by Zeta »

That may be a slight inconvience, but it's not going to cause the end of the world. And unless the stranger asks a bunch of invasive questions like "Where do you work? Where do you keep your keys? What color is your pubic hair?" - I can't imagine how it would constitute an "invasion of privacy".

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Post by Delphine »

Segaholic2 wrote:I was under the impression that most people don't like being approached by strangers when they're outside, but maybe I'm wrong.
Therefore people doing surveys of random people on the street -- for any reason at all -- should not do so? How about news reporters looking for a soundbite on some current event or another? People asking for directions? The time?

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