All-new 2D Sonic rolling out in 2010

[MiraiTails]

That trailer is terrifying.

[M.C.Dillinger]

Trailer wasn't terrifying, it was hilarious!

[Frieza2000]

(Reads the last 20 pages)

Wow. I was seriously considering putting time aside for this, but...I mean, mediocre level design and music are par for the course, but without professional quality programming you might as well be playing a fan game. Also, the mine-cart. Who honestly thought that was going to fly?

It's pretty astonishing. All they had to do was make a rom hack. It probably would've produced stellar sales with marginal complaints about lacking innovation, more or less what the new Mario games have gotten. I feel dirty saying this, but why can't the designers listen to their marketing department?

[K2J]

I think they did. The game is very much more "market this as classic by having gratuitous amounts of callbacks and Genesis drum samples" than "let's try to make a game that emulates Sonic 1, 2, and 3&K".

[Malchik]

This was nobody's fault but Sega's marketing depot. It's not the developers, they've proven they are competent from their past library. Sega just can't see past their heads-in-ass, hip-n-youthful horseshit to see the lowest common denominator; People want a Sonic game that stays both true to Sonics original formula and game mechanics. We don't want a million hoop-da-loops at breakneck "sonic" speeds. We don't want gimmicky, broken mechanics like the spin attack and buggy mine carts, and we as sure as fuck don't want complete re-hashes. I like nostalgia but I don't want to play the same boss, even with new half-assed graphics. Sega needs to clamp up their spewing anus and stop give press conferences, hitting us with a release date. Take your time, study, and make a solid game. Obviously games cannot be churned out as fast as you made the original games. I don't know why, but it's still a fact.

I almost wish someone at Sega-Sammy would loose his shit and go postal. We won't be loosing any creative minds. And what's sad is this games going to sell millions. I'm not questioning it. Hollywood and the Music industry is just as half-backed.

[Segaholic2]

You are completely wrong. We are not the lowest common denominator by any stretch (I'm not even sure you actually understand what it figuratively means). And the game is designed perfectly for the actual lowest common denominator: Undiscerning rabid Sonic fanfurs who will eat up and defend to the death any barely playable Sonic-branded shit Sega deigns to spew out of their diseased ass every couple years.

[Crisis]

While it's true that the "least common denominator" in this situation will almost certainly buy this game and enjoy it, it makes no sense to market or design to that demographic. The whole point is to expand outwards. Rather than give developers free reign to create their own project (like they did with Sonic Rush), SEGA have clearly given the development team an impossible task with entirely insufficient resources, but marketed it to old-school Sonic fans with apparently some short-term success. Whether or not this works out in the long-term is highly dubious; but since the Sonic fan base apparently refuses to abandon the franchise altogether, SEGA can afford to make risky business decisions without much potential for backfire. Releasing this game in the Genesis era would have been suicidal; now, it'll almost certainly boost sales, albeit temporarily, and SEGA won't lose any of the long-term fans they've already accrued.

It's a logical business decision from a marketing position, albeit a misguided one.

[FlashTHD]

While it's true that the "least common denominator" in this situation will almost certainly buy this game and enjoy it, it makes no sense to market or design to that demographic. The whole point is to expand outwards. Rather than give developers free reign to create their own project (like they did with Sonic Rush), SEGA have clearly given the development team an impossible task with entirely insufficient resources, but marketed it to old-school Sonic fans with apparently some short-term success. Whether or not this works out in the long-term is highly dubious; but since the Sonic fan base apparently refuses to abandon the franchise altogether, SEGA can afford to make risky business decisions without much potential for backfire. Releasing this game in the Genesis era would have been suicidal; now, it'll almost certainly boost sales, albeit temporarily, and SEGA won't lose any of the long-term fans they've already accrued.

It's a logical business decision from a marketing position, albeit a misguided one.

I'd say this wins the thread.

Baffling, then, that they let Platinum Games get away with damn near whatever, and the rest of the company shows occasional signs that it's not entirely a disaster scene over there (though their dwindling finances don't tell it). Under the current management Sega is severely bipolar. having said that, i'm afraid to find out what the fuck kind of disease Sega West has.

[Frieza2000]

This was nobody's fault but Sega's marketing depot.

The game was touted as having momentum based gameplay, which it was clearly never intended to, and being a nostalgia trip, which would not include a dissonant mine cart ride in the middle of the game. They may have tried to adhere to the marketing, or indeed the same marketing drones may have simultaneously insisted that they include the homing attack and minigames to try to expand the appeal to a demographic they weren't actively marketing to, but in any event things would be a little better if they'd made the game they said they were making.

[FlashTHD]

in any event things would be a little better if they'd made the game they said they were making.

Welcome to Sega West marketing, where it is established company policy to never have a freaking clue what you're doing but pursue it anyway. They are not a reliable source of info about anything.

You know, when they copped that philisophical-sounding spiel about momentum physics and the thrills of earning your high speeds, right away I wondered which ranty message board post they ripped it off from.

[Neo]

Misguided as western Sega might be, I'm pretty sure they're not the ones who created the sub-par engine, lousy levels, uninspired graphics and bland, repetitive music for this game and called it Sonic the Hedgehog 4.

[Segaholic2]

This game is anything but a risky business decision. It's downloadable, meaning development time and costs are much lower. It's unoriginal, as practically everything is aesthetically and stylistically ripped from a previous game. It's episodic, meaning it's not even a full fucking game and they can simply not continue development of more episodes if it turns out to be a complete financial disaster (hint: it won't). And subsequently, later episodes will be even cheaper to churn out.

[Crisis]

This game is anything but a risky business decision. It's downloadable, meaning development time and costs are much lower. It's unoriginal, as practically everything is aesthetically and stylistically ripped from a previous game. It's episodic, meaning it's not even a full fucking game and they can simply not continue development of more episodes if it turns out to be a complete financial disaster (hint: it won't). And subsequently, later episodes will be even cheaper to churn out.

You're missing the point. Making it cheap and episodic is the business decision. What's at stake is public confidence in the brand, except they have so little anyway outside of a hardcore niche market that they're practically guaranteed an increased turnover, if only out of morbid curiosity from the rest of us. They're in a situation where public confidence couldn't get any worse, so they can make decisions that would have been incredibly dangerous in their prime.

Once a company is in decline, decisions that would seem incredibly risky to successful companies become mandatory if the declining company is going to survive. You wouldn't see Nintendo outsource Mario into a shitty episodic game with broken physics and awful level design called "Super Mario Brothers 4", and that's not because it wouldn't make a profit, it's because it would be an embarrassment to a company that we know can create a polished game like New Super Mario Brothers Wii. SEGA can only get away with it because standards are already so low.

[(No Imagination)]

You know, when they copped that philisophical-sounding spiel about momentum physics and the thrills of earning your high speeds, right away I wondered which ranty message board post they ripped it off from.

I got that impression as well, though I think I've seen a website that got all too philosophical about Sonic and this earning momentum stuff somewhere. What seemed suspicious about it is that Sega's little tidbits on how the game will make you earn your momentum made it pretty clear they were repeating the mistake of focusing on the player character instead of thinking about what kind of stages he will run through.

Remember the little "every Sonic 1 level is different" thread? Levels create "momentum based gameplay", not Sonic. Had they actually thought about it, they would come to this conclusion. Alas, they didn't, and the whole thing is marketing feces.

You wouldn't see Nintendo outsource Mario into a shitty episodic game with broken physics and awful level design called "Super Mario Brothers 4"

Well, not precisely, but even Nintendo does weird licensing sometimes.

[Segaholic2]

I still fail to see how this game is a "risky" business decision. According to your logic, either making a game cheap and episodic is risky, which I already explained why it's not, or outsourcing a game that will likely be shitty is risky. If that's the case, Sega's been making risky decisions with Sonic since Sonic Advance or Sonic 3D Blast or whatever.

I think you are greatly overestimating what kind of effect your perceived "public confidence in the brand" actually has on the franchise and company. Hint: Practically none. Sonic games are going to sell well enough to justify making more regardless of whether or not old fans (us) or new fans (furries and idiots) love or hate the latest Sonic game, or simply want to satiate their curiosity like some of you morons are planning to do. Somehow I don't think over 6 million people were just "curious" about Mario & Sonic at the Special Olympics. I also seriously call into question your suggestion that only a "hardcore niche market" is going to pay money for anything with Sonic in it, or whatever you were trying to say in that sentence; it's kind of worded strangely and I'm a little unclear exactly what you meant.

[Crisis]

Somehow I don't think over 6 million people were just "curious" about Mario & Sonic at the Special Olympics. I also seriously call into question your suggestion that only a "hardcore niche market" is going to pay money for anything with Sonic in it, or whatever you were trying to say in that sentence; it's kind of worded strangely and I'm a little unclear exactly what you meant.

Mario & Sonic is an example of extremely good marketing. It's the only Olympics tie-in aimed at children (that I know of; it's certainly dwarfed all the others), and it features a rivalry between 2 of the bitterest iconic rivals in video game history together - for the first time. It also helped that it was a pretty decent game, which would make sense as Mario has a much better reputation with regard to his tie-ins. People can buy it with confidence because it's a high-budget sports title with Mario in it, and those have historically been pretty good.

I wasn't trying to say that only a niche market is interested in Sonic, what I'm saying is that there's a hardcore niche market that WILL buy Sonic regardless of the quality of the game. And that SEGA doesn't market to them. What would be the point? They'll buy whatever crap they're given. Sonic 4 is marketed to the old-school fans who're still invested enough in the classics that they would buy a game that looked like a return to form, but might be disinterested in another Rush or Unleashed. The risk is that these people will lose interest in the series altogether, and that the brand's reputation will continue to spiral into decline. This would have been a huge risk many years ago (such as when there was a console depending on it, as with Sonic X-treme), but these days SEGA has nowhere to go but up. Basically, they're able to gamble on the quality of the game because they have nothing to lose. That's all I meant by a "risky" decision; it's an attempt to break out of Sonic's existing niche and into a wider market, but it's going about it in all the wrong ways.

SEGA clearly had no idea of what making Sonic 4 would entail. They gave the project to a third party along with some money and a schedule and then set about marketing it before it was even playable. You can almost imagine the horror of the developers when they discovered that a completely unrelated studio had been commissioned to make a teaser trailer for their game and had created an explosion of anticipation across the entire world. SEGA couldn't even keep their rushed hack job under wraps and it's now under scrutiny by the entire gaming community when it's not even released. They gave the developers an impossible task to begin with (recapture the magic that made Sonic the most loved video game character of his age and create a sequel to one of gaming's greatest masterpieces, in maybe 2 years and on an embarrassingly small budget), and then did everything they possibly could to whore it out for publicity. It's disgraceful, but it will still work, as SEGA's jeopardisation of the game's development has given it exposure and, ironically, every chance to succeed financially.

[(No Imagination)]

what I'm saying is that there's a hardcore niche market that WILL buy Sonic regardless of the quality of the game

I, in all seriousness, probably won't. And I'm a bitter oldschool Sonic fanatic, I was supposed to be a part of the target demographic this time around, right?

It...just doesn't seem like the kind of game I'd be excited to play, marketing ploys and assumed childhood pogroms aside. The only reason to play it would be because of the main guy, and he doesn't seem to spin nicely enough this time.

[Segaholic2]

I wasn't trying to say that only a niche market is interested in Sonic, what I'm saying is that there's a hardcore niche market that WILL buy Sonic regardless of the quality of the game. And that SEGA doesn't market to them. What would be the point? They'll buy whatever crap they're given. Sonic 4 is marketed to the old-school fans who're still invested enough in the classics that they would buy a game that looked like a return to form, but might be disinterested in another Rush or Unleashed. The risk is that these people will lose interest in the series altogether, and that the brand's reputation will continue to spiral into decline. This would have been a huge risk many years ago (such as when there was a console depending on it, as with Sonic X-treme), but these days SEGA has nowhere to go but up. Basically, they're able to gamble on the quality of the game because they have nothing to lose. That's all I meant by a "risky" decision; it's an attempt to break out of Sonic's existing niche and into a wider market, but it's going about it in all the wrong ways.

Okay, I see the point you were trying to make. If that was actually Sega's intent, then they sure screwed the pooch and one can only hope the game actually does alienate whatever remaining "hardcore" base there is. That is, if the game is as bad as it looks.

[M.C.Dillinger]

Sonic 2006 failed to alienate the "hard-core" fan base, if that didn't do it Sonic 4 certainly won't. I expect these types of fans to be greatly satisfied with Sonic 4 on a superficial level. The only way to kill the cult of sonic is for Sega to abandon them for a broader (and most likely some smarter) audience.

And I'm sure we'll all aware that Sega lacks the courage to do this.

[FlashTHD]

Sonic 2006 failed to alienate the "hard-core" fan base, if that didn't do it Sonic 4 certainly won't. I expect these types of fans to be greatly satisfied with Sonic 4 on a superficial level. The only way to kill the cult of sonic is for Sega to abandon them for a broader (and most likely some smarter) audience.

And this is the danger of pidgeonholing. Who the fucking shit are the "hard-core" people supposed to be in the context of this now?

[M.C.Dillinger]

That's why I put the phrase in quotation marks. I don't think it's very far-fetched to say that there is a highly fanatical portion of the fan base that automatically loves anything associated with the character. Sonic the hedgehog has long been infamous as one of the creepier fandoms in video games.

[(No Imagination)]

I don't think it's very far-fetched to say that there is a highly fanatical portion of the fan base that automatically loves anything associated with the character. Sonic the hedgehog has long been infamous as one of the creepier fandoms in video games.

Maybe, but after glancing at public opinion about Sonic 4, I'm starting to think the economic importance of this supposedly uncritical portion of fanbase is seriously exaggerated.

[K2J]

I would think that this "uncritical portion of fanbase" correlates to children who buy games / get their parents to buy games because they have certain characters on the front, or to people who otherwise don't know any better. You aren't likely to see too many of them on gaming blogs or the "public opinion" of the game (unless Newsweek did a survey on Sonic 4 or something and I missed it).

I do think its influence is exaggerated, especially due to this being a downloadable title, but just because you don't hear about them doesn't mean they're not there.

[K2J]

Spanish magazine Nintendo Acción did a preview and mentioned that there would be five episodes in Sonic 4. From the first non-bold sentence of the main body:

<<Sonic the Hedgehog 4>> nos llegará en 5 capítulos descargables e independiens.

Meaning,

<<Sonic The Hedgehog 4>> will be with us with 5 downloadable and independent episodes.

Though this might be a translation misunderstanding of some sort, I'm vaguely familiar with Spanish and that appears to be what the magazine says. Whether or not it's true is a different manner entirely. I would at first think that it was referring to the number of Zones (including E.G.G. Station) if not for the "independent" part.

[Kogen]