Guess the Sonic Generations Stages

[Zeta]

Here's a statement that needs elaborating on. How is it out of date, and who hasn't thought of them as minigames?

Generally there's been a push for less and less segmented level design (Act 1 Act 2 or 1-1, 1-2) into more integrated and cohesive worlds.

I personally didn't really ever think of the Sonic 1 special stages as minigames, since it used the same physics engine as the rest of the game did. Sonic 2 and Blue Sphere were games in their own right, though.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

That's something that's always disappointed me about the Sonic Adventures; integrating the Chaos Emeralds into the plot as gimmies diminished what made them fun. They were no different to prison capsules or goal rings in that regard.

Grab-the-brass-ring-style reward system is something I dearly miss in video games.

[Crazy Penguin]

I agree with Zeta on Special Stages. They work better when they're informed by the main game, as evidenced by Street Fighter II versus Mortal Kombat. Sonic 1 (both versions!) did it best, and the Bonus Stages in S3&K work under the same principle. (I'm a little surprised that they haven't tried doing Sonic Spinball style Special Stages yet, everyone loves those.) Same for end bosses, ideally they should be the culmination of the skills you've picked up from the rest of the game, so most of the Super Sonic bosses fall flat as you end up dealing with a new set of controls, abilities and general objectives.

[The Doc]

Yeah, it's a damn shame that they basically forgot what made Super Sonic so cool in the first place. It wasn't just that he was more-or-less invincible, nor that he looked cool with his upturned spikes, nor that he was ultra fast. It was all of those things plus the fact that, once you learned enough about each game, you could basically activate him any time you wished. It didn't matter when you collected all seven Chaos Emeralds-whether it was the first level or the final level--once you did, you had access to Super Sonic.

[Crazy Penguin]

Which is essentially giving the better players access to easy mode. What's the point?

[Dr. BUGMAN]

I agree with Zeta on Special Stages. They work better when they're informed by the main game, as evidenced by Street Fighter II versus Mortal Kombat. Sonic 1 (both versions!) did it best, and the Bonus Stages in S3&K work under the same principle.

Wasn't he saying that they should do away with them, period? I agree about requiring skills learned through the game proper to obtain CEs (Though I should point out that they were not obtained through special stages, but by Easter-egg-like searching in Sonic 8-bit). Having them handed to you at the end of a level is absolutely no way to go about it; it's an empty gesture.

[The Doc]

That IS the point. Some people want that "easy mode"; it's a reward for hard work and dedication to the game.

[G.Silver]

It's not just easy mode, there's stuff you can do with Super Sonic that you can't do with regular Sonic, because he's so fast and also handily invulnerable, he's a very different experience and fun to just mess around with. I'd consider him less "easy mode" and more like the Debug mode, just one more fun thing to play with and add value to the game.

I agree with Zeta on Special Stages. They work better when they're informed by the main game, as evidenced by Street Fighter II versus Mortal Kombat. Sonic 1 (both versions!) did it best, and the Bonus Stages in S3&K work under the same principle.

I can see the appeal of this sort of thing, and it's the same style of bonus round that you'd see in old arcade games, where the core gameplay is re-purposed to do something different, but as a kid, I really appreciated the Sonic 2, CD, and S3K Special Stages more for their extra variety, and in all honestly, the effects were pretty dazzling at the time. A rotating maze is really cool. A full screen 3D tube is really cool. A big ball covered in other balls is... well, I guess it's cool too. (Also consider the bonus round in the arcade Shinobi--far more eye catching to prospective players than the main game.) I can recall distinctly playing Sonic Adventure in a store once and a kid watching asked "what is the rest of the game like? This is just the Special Stage, right?" I don't think the special stages were dropped because they fell out of fashion so much as they would just no longer be those visually impressive bonuses that turned heads, because the games themselves were so much more visually impressive. When they brought it back in Sonic Heroes it certainly wasn't because it was visually impressive or even fun (they were awful), it was to go with the game's nostalgic themes.

[Wombatwarlord777]

With regards to why players should have to work to unlock Super Sonic in regular stages, I've always thought it would be fun to have special timed runs that only Super Sonic can realistically complete, which in turn further unlocks concept art, a soundtest, and other filler. I also like the idea of separate time-attack records for each level, one of which allows Super Sonic to be activated, and the other of which prohibits it. It could possibly change the way that players approach time attacks: Normally, it's all about finding the fastest route through the level, whereas with Super Sonic available for use, that fastest route would have to be compromised with others that have more rings.

This would only work, of course, if rings were more scarce than they've always been. But at least conceptually, it could be fun and not necessarily easy!

[Radrappy]

I found the red rings in colors to be a worthy replacement to the special stages in terms of having to earn the emeralds. (true, you did have to do the multiplayer stages first but those were so easy that it was more or less just going through the motions.) The red rings were first the most part ingeniously hidden and finding them was almost as rewarding as the game itself.

[CM August]

It would be neat if Super Sonic was the equivalent of Chrono Trigger's "New Game+" mode, allowing your overpowered self to reach parts of the level or bypass obstacles in a way you clearly shouldn't, leading to easter eggs or joke endings. Plus there's the excitement of feeling you're breaking the rules, going out of bounds etc. that Silver and others alluded to. Basically make Super Sonic feel more like a reward than even the classic games could offer.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

I don't think the special stages were dropped because they fell out of fashion so much as they would just no longer be those visually impressive bonuses that turned heads, because the games themselves were so much more visually impressive.

I thought it was because the rigid plot structure demanded the player have certain amount of CEs at certain points, otherwise Chaos wouldn't have its other boss phases.

Though they certainly could have gone about it in different ways, like potentially having you fight Chaos 0 the entire game with a post-credits scene showing a pent-up aggressive Chaos lurking Station Square.

[G.Silver]

There's that too, but I'm sure if they wanted Special Stages they could have found an excuse to include them.

[Radrappy]

I thought it was because the rigid plot structure demanded the player have certain amount of CEs at certain points, otherwise Chaos wouldn't have its other boss phases.

The first of many problems stemming from the franchise wanting to be an anime series.

[Rob-Bert]

Another easy way to make the Chaos Emeralds a reward while still having less segmented map structure: Have them be buried in hidden areas. Pretty much all of the Game Gear titles did this instead of having the usual Special Stages. It works as an optional trinket and doesn't disrupt the game for some sort of challenge disconnected from the rest of it.

[Farmer]

Hell, bring back Super Emeralds and put them in the special stages.

[gr4yJ4Y]

With regards to why players should have to work to unlock Super Sonic in regular stages, I've always thought it would be fun to have special timed runs that only Super Sonic can realistically complete, which in turn further unlocks concept art, a soundtest, and other filler. I also like the idea of separate time-attack records for each level, one of which allows Super Sonic to be activated, and the other of which prohibits it. It could possibly change the way that players approach time attacks: Normally, it's all about finding the fastest route through the level, whereas with Super Sonic available for use, that fastest route would have to be compromised with others that have more rings.

I know it's not exactly what you're talking about, but in Sonic 4's time attacks it was sometimes quicker to play through as regular Sonic instead of Super. If you check out the online records, you'll see there's a good mix of either in the top spots. In some acts there's a somewhat even number of both in the top 10.

[G.Silver]

How does Sonic 4 work? I don't understand how it could be faster to not be Super Sonic--surely every route through any level still gives you at least 50 rings. Is Super Sonic not actually faster or something? Also, how does that work in Time Attack? Do you get to choose whether or not Super Sonic is active before the level starts, or does he appear in the ranking based on whether or not you turned into him?

You can tell I didn't play Sonic 4. :)

[The Doc]

You're not alone, dude. I'm not shelling out 1200 MicroClams for a game that got rave reviews such as "OK".

[gr4yJ4Y]

How does Sonic 4 work? I don't understand how it could be faster to not be Super Sonic--surely every route through any level still gives you at least 50 rings. Is Super Sonic not actually faster or something? Also, how does that work in Time Attack? Do you get to choose whether or not Super Sonic is active before the level starts, or does he appear in the ranking based on whether or not you turned into him?

You can tell I didn't play Sonic 4. :)

It's been a while since I've played around with its time attack.

Super Sonic is as fast as ever. The transformation animation takes up some time. You also come to a complete stop to transform. It appears in the ranking based on whether or not you transform. You don't choose before picking the level.

[Farmer]

Sonic Generations will be available for the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3, Nintendo 3DS in November 2011.

Bastards! Looks like the PC release hopes are gone.

[gr4yJ4Y]

It doesn't say anything about there NOT being a PC release. Also, I posted the link to that blog post in the news section.

[Frieza2000]

So based on how positive the reaction to this has been and how anticipated it is I think it's safe to say that, unless the game bombs, we're going to be seeing more of these remastered levels. But will Sega go the route of DLC map packs, or will they make Generations into a sub-series like the storybook games were going to be? DLC has the advantage of low distribution costs, but it's perceived by gamers as something that should be relatively inexpensive and charging $50-$60 for a pack of 7 levels might not go over too well. They could probably get away with $7-$8.50 per level if they sold them individually, which would net them the same profit as a new game if they sold 7 levels, but not all of the levels are going to sell well. There's also the loss of impulse buys, since the game falls further and further from the public eye as it gets older and Sega isn't making any money from people grabbing a copy from the bargain bin unless they buy the DLC afterward.

Knowing them they probably won't bother with more than one or two downloadable levels, if any, before going to the sequel, and it'll continue to be a widely diffused 'best of' rather than a systematic redux of two or three games at a time to attract the broadest possible interest. It's an interesting thought, though. Is there a standard most companies keep for how much DLC to release before it's time to make a sequel? With something like Sonic or Mario you could theoretically go on the life of the console generation. Even something like Smash Bros - I'm really surprised we didn't see character or costume packs for that game. Nintendo/Game Arts could've doubled their profits by now with relatively little effort.

[FlashTHD]

Even something like Smash Bros - I'm really surprised we didn't see character or costume packs for that game. Nintendo/Game Arts could've doubled their profits by now with relatively little effort.

As thouroghly as the game has been hacked, I kinda doubt it.

[Frieza2000]

I think stuff like that shows just the opposite! These people want new content so bad that they're making it themselves! They'd totally buy DLC, if for no other reason than to have new resources to use on their custom characters.