11 Years

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Re: 11 Years

Postby CM August » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:11 am

Not to mention Werehog's portion of the game was the only one to actually implement reasonably solid, fair platforming. As opposed to atrocious twitch mechanics and mess-up-you-die QTE that plagued the 'normal' Sonic levels.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Xyton » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:15 pm

You know, I recognize that some of the QTEs were less than fair in Unleashed -- particularly the win-or-die ones -- but am I the only one who thinks QTEs could fit a Sonic game really well?
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Postby Isuka » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:40 pm

... Hmm, I can only think of them as a fitting addition during some boss fights. Can't picture either a 2D or 3D true Sonic game whose main stages and mechanics could be made any better by resorting to those.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Xyton » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:41 am

I guess I liked the QTEs that determined if you got to a higher or shorter path or the like. The life / death ones were not so good. I can't really see it adding to a boss fight, but I also think that the boss battles in general have gotten too long, and I wouldn't expect them to be anything but longer with QTEs.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby FlashTHD » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:14 am

I just noticed this in the Sonicopedia. Hardest i've laughed at anything on the GHZ since prolly the original Sonic Battle page. Awesome.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Arcade » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:14 pm

CM August wrote:Not to mention Werehog's portion of the game was the only one to actually implement reasonably solid, fair platforming. As opposed to atrocious twitch mechanics and mess-up-you-die QTE that plagued the 'normal' Sonic levels.


If you mean it by 1999 standars, then yes it was a solid platformer...
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Re: 11 Years

Postby FlashTHD » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:53 am

Some details missed on the SA2 page I discovered while bored on a rainy, cold, and especially miserable night:

As I recall, the point values for the trick ratings are:
Good - 100
Great - 200
Nice - 300
Jammin' - 400
Cool - 500
Radical - 600
Tight - 800
Awesome - 1000
Extreme - 1500
Perfect - 2000

Fun facts: there is never a place in Sonic and Shadow's stages where you can obtain a Perfect. About the closest there is would be those last 3 rails in City Escape, which gives an Extreme. Meanwhile, I think you get a Perfect in the hunting stages if you find a shard in under 30 seconds (probably not accurate) with no hints. Still, finding one that quick with one hint is 1500 points, and two of those puts you well on the way to an A rank. You're free to use all the hints you like for the last shard, because the stage ends before you can get any trick bonus.

Tails' and Eggman's HP bar restores a fraction of health with every ring collected. The little notches above it are just a more precise measurement of every 10 HP. As a neat touch, you can also pick up Chaos Drives to heal. Also, If you throw a punch/kick while running full speed, Knux/Rouge will go into a spiralling attack while still hurtling forward.

Items:
- I recall there were Random Ring boxes in this game too but it's been too long since i've even played it.
- There's a very often overlooked quality of Invincibility in this game: it gives you double points until it wears off.
- If you break all 3 Chao containers, the last one gives up a rare animal.
- Time switches don't start counting down to wearing off until they align themselves straight again, which you can nicely abuse - stand against a switch to freely examine a place with no penalty, or make it bob as much you can when you tag it so you get the maximum head start.
- Some rocket and missile platforms have to be activiated by switches first.
- Omochao's got a short memory. Thrash him 'round all you like, but when he returns to the spot you trigger him from, he'll start giving hints again like usual.

Enemies:
- If a Hunter that shoots blue goop bullets snares you, then it'll fire a yellow bullet at you. I believe you get just enough time to break free and dodge it.
- Alternate way to kill Shield Hunter: when he drops his shield to shoot, he's real slow on the draw...
- I forget if the Rhino Cannon actually exists anywhere?
- There's special version of the Blue Eagle that shows up in one spot each in Radical Highway (I think?) and Mission Street. It flies straight ahead very slowly and bombards you with vulcan shot fire. You'll know it's coming by the low jet engine racket that won't stop. I know Tails' is near the ancient ruin for the lost Chao, but it seems like it only appears occasionally...
- Beats me why there's a red recolor Hornet either. Matter of fact, I don't think it shows up anywhere else but way up high in Meteor Herd and Mad Space, and there's only one each...
- I do recall one Unidus in Hidden Base that slings its' spikes, don't know of any others. But the Uni-uni joke was cute so forget it :p
- Motora and the Meleons are missing from Green Hill

Stages (things that are prolly most significant):
- I've read that mashing the buttons in most cutscenes will cause Big to nonsensically pop in from nowhere. Dreamcast only, probably.
- Prison Lane's security cameras no longer award points on Gamecube
- In Metal Harbor, there are two places to grab onto the giant rocket. You have just barely enough time to pass the first and make it to the second, which awards extra points if you do so (and is practically required for the A rank).
- Might mention the monster bounty on Tails' head advertised in Mission Street (that you can shoot), and that inconvenient chunk of the interstate that tries to crush you right before the goal.
- Here's how powerslides actually work in the kart racing: when you initiate one, it causes you to start slowing down gradually, and you can't fix it (or your wild oversteer) unless you let the car straighten out completely. The balloons don't necessarily contain 20 rings each.
- When using Tails and Eggman, quicksand is instant doom.
- Those swinging pirate ships in Pyramid Cave are something else, alright...
- King Boom Boo throws extra fireballs the more he's been damaged
- Eternal Engine has normal gravity, and you forgot the sub-boss-like finale against that very well guarded power supply. Some dynamite is also slapped onto platforms in annoying places, though I guess you could call the whole stage an annoying place.
- The meteors of Meteor Hard aren't so random, as much as if you don't keep moving, one will probably hit you since it's likely programmed to have the meteor shower "chase" you around the stage...
- In Knux vs. Rouge, they'll bounce away from each other if you attack the boss while they're swinging at you. The "heat blast" floor opens and shuts at long intervals - the boss drops straight back to the floor as soon as it closes, but you'll prolly have KO'ed them before then. Lest we forget this: when the boss climbs the wall, just run like hell or get Drill Drive'd.
- The highly combustable tubes in Tails vs. Eggman 2 can hurt the boss and are by far the easiest way to do so... also generally, I find that if you don't end the fight in about 20 seconds (or really quickly after they start using vs. mode attacks), you're toast.
- There are, um... floating platforms in Final Rush... quite a few of them...

- The lost Chao in Sand Ocean is one of the very few that doesn't need the Mystic Melody to reach.
- Correct me on this one: the dialouge, or the way the cutscenes were run in the dub suggests that Maria's wish in the flashback before Radical Highway was "obscured" and Shadow didn't recall all of it until the Last story. Is it like this in the original?
- Rouge says right before Security Hall that 5 minutes ought to be plenty to get the gems instead of 15, hence the panic-inducing time limit.
- Rouge's batmobile handles identically to the Cyclone. In the kart minigame itself, Sonic and Shadow are the "speed" characters, Tails and Rouge are "acceleration & handling", and Knuckles and Eggman are "average, good brakes, but fucking heavy".
- Mad Space's "gaping wide planet" has no gravity of its' own.
- In SA2:B, they managed to cock up the collision programming on Final Chase's gravity drums rather badly.
- There's a particular gimmick to each segment of Cannon's Core: Tails' is a bit tenuous (learning the time switches?), Eggman's is trickier time switch puzzles, Rouge's is finding that switch to flood the room, Knuckles' is finding another switch in said flooded chamber, and Sonic is basically "look at how sinister it is this close to the end". And uh, the SA1 water slide.

Other/SA2:B:
- Now that the Dricas websites are history, the Moon Chao is more or less extinct unless you can hack your VMU.
- In Boss mode, slogging through All is the only way to fight the last two bosses
- The new red ! bubble for GC hunting stages sure kicks ass for buried shards...
- The level 4 stages in SA2:B's vs. mode must be unlocked by clearing the story side they belong to (Hero story for Final Rush, ect.)
- I don't believe Downtown Race has any snow...
- I believe it's been documented that the frequency of Amy's special attacks makes her astoundingly cheap
- Metal Sonic's Black Shield locks out the control stick when you put it up, so you're at the mercy of whatever momentum you were carrying.
- The level 1 shooting match races ditch the HP gauge and are splitscreen. The level 4 stages are also splitscreen, and Eternal Engine is not actually that stage, but rather a 2-player version of Tails vs. Eggman 2!
- The red Cyclone also has weaker attack power and no special attacks (that I recall), but vulcan shots are replaced by insta-firing homing missiles.
- From what I recall reading about this on GameFAQs quite a while back (where there is Chao documentation beyond belief), SA2:B takes the Intelligence and Luck stats and hides them, making them preset and all but unalterable. Still means you can ignore em.
- A GBA Sonic game isn't needed to run the Tiny Chao Garden, you can load it into a cartridge-less GBA. Can't leave it there forever of course (but it has a Sleep mode instead of Save & Exit).
- The special Sonic and Shadow Chao giveaways were in fact shiny versions of said Chao that you can't obtain otherwise. (you could already make Sonic/Shadow Chao ingame) As shown here, there was also a Shiny Tails Chao at one point.
- Speaking of the Tails Chao, it's the only event Chao you can still legitimately get, if you have PSO I & II for Gamecube. (i'm guessing the artwork there is fanmade)
- And now that i'm digging through Sonic CulT again, oh hey! The menu themes that never got a download key for the DC version are still on the disc, including the President's Secretary.
- Finally: no mention of Sega of America tripping over the translation of "Bernal sphere" and calling it a Bernoulli one?

And that's about all I can think of. Phew. And now i'm in a better mood :p
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Neo » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:54 am

FlashTHD wrote:Fun facts: there is never a place in Sonic and Shadow's stages where you can obtain a Perfect. About the closest there is would be those last 3 rails in City Escape, which gives an Extreme.

If you manage to kill eleven enemies without your feet touching the ground (bounce attack doesn't count), you get a Perfect bonus. This also works in the hunting stages, but obviously impossible due to the small amount of robots within them.

FlashTHD wrote:- Motora and the Meleons are missing from Green Hill

So is Gani-gani, for that matter.

FlashTHD wrote:- I've read that mashing the buttons in most cutscenes will cause Big to nonsensically pop in from nowhere. Dreamcast only, probably.

Some of them were kept, like the one in the Knuckles/Rouge cutscene at Meteor Herd. Big appears four times during the cutscene provided you keep tapping A and B. First he runs across a beam in the background, then he peeks at what Knuckles and Rouge are doing, then he apparently falls from somewhere higher, and finally runs by the screen again during the very moment Rouge looks back and smiles.

FlashTHD wrote:- Metal Sonic's Black Shield locks out the control stick when you put it up, so you're at the mercy of whatever momentum you were carrying.

It also invalidates any thing you might call "traction", turning you into a ridiculously lubed hockey puck. Use it when going down hill and you gain incredible, unmatched speed.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Crowbar » Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:34 am

FlashTHD wrote:- Time switches don't start counting down to wearing off until they align themselves straight again, which you can nicely abuse - stand against a switch to freely examine a place with no penalty, or make it bob as much you can when you tag it so you get the maximum head start.


Another possibility is to smack it, then get far away enough that the game doesn't check for it anymore, thus basically keeping time frozen forever! Very abusable for time attack.
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Postby Senbei » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:50 pm

FlashTHD wrote:- I forget if the Rhino Cannon actually exists anywhere?

There's one on Ghost Train Mountain, as I recall.

Neo wrote:Some of them were kept, like the one in the Knuckles/Rouge cutscene at Meteor Herd. Big appears four times during the cutscene provided you keep tapping A and B.

I didn't know anything about this. I just tried it and it is amazing.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Shadow Hog » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:57 pm

You forgot this tidbit from Security Hall: doing a drill kick in front of the safes automatically opens them. I forget the exact context of this trivia, but watching the stage again on YouTube shows you otherwise have to dig into the center of each and every safe to open them up, which is very time-consuming; the drill kick is fast, and opens multiple safes at the same time, letting you check a large amount of them in a very prompt fashion.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Neo » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:21 am

That's a glitch. :) There's even some safes guarded by traps that you're supposed to flick a switch to freeze, since they fall down on you before you manage to dig into the wall.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby K2J » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:28 pm

Note: I've only played SA2B, not the original, so these might not be 100% accurate:

I recall there were Random Ring boxes in this game too but it's been too long since i've even played it.


Aside from the balloons in the kart-racing levels, I'm pretty sure all ring boxes are defined. But are the boxes you find by digging as Knuckles/Rouge randomly generated? I don't remember.

Meanwhile, I think you get a Perfect in the hunting stages if you find a shard in under 30 seconds (probably not accurate) with no hints.


One minute, IIRC.

You're free to use all the hints you like for the last shard, because the stage ends before you can get any trick bonus.


Might be GCN only, but I'm pretty sure it appears instantly and counts to your score as the screen whites out.

- Eternal Engine has normal gravity


Except the part before the final tower (where the Golden Beetle appears).

- The lost Chao in Sand Ocean is one of the very few that doesn't need the Mystic Melody to reach.


Security Hall doesn't, but the powerup needed for it (the Treasure Scope), does anyway.

FlashTHD wrote:- Rouge says right before Security Hall that 5 minutes ought to be plenty to get the gems instead of 15, hence the panic-inducing time limit.


I chalk this up to somewhat vague wording (a problem Rouge seems to have in that game's translation). The bombs themselves are set to 15 minutes instead of the original 30 due to Eggman realizing Tails is there - meaning Rouge has about a third of that time to get the Emeralds, then has to spend the next 10 minutes escaping. Flying Dog screwed the timetable up, and Shadow had to save Rouge at the last minute. The only real problem left to solve is how Sonic has 8 minutes in Green Forest despite Shadow's cutscene displaying 1:00 on the timer, and the bombs visibly all go off at the same time. Not to mention what happens if Shadow, say, takes 9:30 to complete White Jungle.

- I don't believe Downtown Race has any snow...


Not really snow, but the streets are white with frost or marshmellow guts or something.

Crowbar wrote:Another possibility is to smack it, then get far away enough that the game doesn't check for it anymore, thus basically keeping time frozen forever! Very abusable for time attack.


And you can abuse the way the game stores the separate sections for Cannon's Core, too: by completing Mission 2 as Knuckles, you set the next section pointer to Sonic. This is normally reset when any mission begins, but this routine doesn't happen when you go to Chao World, so it stays set. Going to Chao World immediately after completing Mission 2 as Knuckles and then exiting takes you directly to Sonic's portion of Cannon's Core, with only the time used in Chao World on the clock, leading to in-game times of less than 10 seconds, if you're tricky with the first time switch.

Also, I didn't know this before the other day, but to buy the Maria theme you apparently have to have the Tiny Chao Garden hooked up while you're in the shop. (Video with bad captioning tells all).
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Re:

Postby Frieza2000 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:33 am

Senbei wrote:
Neo wrote:Some of them were kept, like the one in the Knuckles/Rouge cutscene at Meteor Herd. Big appears four times during the cutscene provided you keep tapping A and B.

I didn't know anything about this. I just tried it and it is amazing.


I'm pretty sure they're all in the GC version, they only removed Big from the levels. And on GC you don't even have to mash the buttons, just hold down A. That really makes it much more enjoyable; if you don't mash the buttons fast enough on the DC Big doesn't appear, and the pain slowly building in my arms after the first batch made it hard to pay attention to the scene.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Neo » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:11 am

And I'm pretty sure the one in the helicopter right at the start isn't. But it's been a while and I can't be arsed to check, so.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Crazy Penguin » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:26 am

Why was Big removed from the GameCube version anyway? Trying to find him in each level was one of the most fun parts of the game.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Neo » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:34 pm

Sega wanted you to forget all about him because KIDS HATED BIG :(
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Re: 11 Years

Postby j-man » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:37 pm

Hey, I used to be a kid and I thought Big was awesome.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby FlashTHD » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:41 pm

Also I forget how many times i've brought this up: depsite the cutscenes just telling you that there's about 5 minutes to the cannon firing, there is a 10 minute time limit to the last Sonic vs. Shadow battle. After 10:00, they start ripping the road out from ahead of you.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Shadow Hog » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:06 pm

On that note, the Finalhazard fight is timed to five minutes - the chit-chat over the fight talking about how much longer you have isn't just idle talk. As the fight goes on, the screen gets redder as the ARK enters the planet's atmosphere, and at five minutes, you fall to the Earth as if you'd run out of rings (regardless of ring count), instead of any special cutscene depicting the ARK hitting the Earth and scorching the surface of the planet or anything.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby K2J » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Cannon's Core lacks a time limit as well (and the timer stops when Time Switches are activated). Also, if you die in Cannon's Core, you'll respawn the section exactly as you entered it, including score, time, and (I believe) rings.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby FlashTHD » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:20 pm

Amazing how much I forgot about this game after not touching it for months. Ok, here's some multiplayer specifics:

In general
- All the default story mode characters come pre-equipped with some level up items: Sonic/Shadow have light dash upgrades, Tails/Eggman have jet boosters, Knux/Rouge have digging tools. (Most of) the other characters/skins can do these abilites by default.
- [GC only] Not all that noteworthy, but the default story characters (maybe sans Tails and Eggman) switch to lower-poly models after the intro scenes. I cannot imagine why, cause the special costume versions don't do that.
- Either player can attack/kill the other
- When you respawn after dying in Race and Treasure Hunt, the game gives you a free random special attack. In this way, the special costume characters can use their other attacks. (no, it's not a handicap effect)
- If the other player froze you, mash the buttons and/or shake the control stick around to make the timer tick down faster.
- [GC only] The level 1 stages are known as "Mini Stages". And in fact, yes, Downtown Race is covered in snow. The mountains in the stage background are too. Whaddya know.

Characters [GC only]:
Amy
- No spindash, no light dash
- Crappy jump height
- Amy Flash stuns the opponent (or more accurately, locks their controller), but doesn't freeze the whole stage like Time Stop/Chaos Control, making it potentially deadlier if you get flash'd right near something that shoots at you or over a bottomless drop. As if she wasn't cheap enough.

Metal Sonic
- No spindash (duh), no light dash
- His sheer speed causes him to overshoot a lot when doing trick jumps off those orange ramps
- If you use Black Shield from a standstill, for whatever reason he will do a somersault after you turn it off
- It really must be stated how stupendously high Metal can jump. Like, it dwarfs every other character in the game. Wow. He can cut lots of corners as a result.

Tikal
- Climbing speed is also faster
- Her radar specifically just removes the green sensitivity completely.

Chaos 0
- Climbing speed is also slower
- His running punches are replaced by one long sliding punch
- His long radar field is actually a disadvantage in some places because, without hints, it can become too vauge where the shard is and leave you fumbling around.

Costume Rouge
- Where's the gang member in dark alley joke :(

Costume Tails
- Good acceleration, which shoots up dramatically when you run in one direction long enough (the jet engine).
- It does have lock-on and volkan cannon, but no special attacks

Costume Eggman
- Volkan cannon seems to fire slower, but could be me. His speed definitely seems worse
- Eggman wears his goggles when in this costume (!!)

Dark Chao Walker
- Slower-firing volkan cannon
- Crazy Rush actually fires twice for good measure.

And other things:
- You can still execute digging the same way Knux did in SA1 (jump + action simultaneously), but the timing's got to be dead on.
- Omochao can also destroy any enemies he crashes into
- There are indeed no Unidi that sling their spikes
- The highly combustable tubes appear in Eternal Engine and Lost Colony
- Kart correction: "Grip" is also a disguise for weight. High grip like Knux and Eggman means super heavy cars. Sonic and Shadow are the only default karts with brakes that are any worse.
- Sound Test was moved from options to extras in the GC version.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Neo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:42 am

FlashTHD wrote:- All the default story mode characters come pre-equipped with some level up items: Sonic/Shadow have light dash upgrades, Tails/Eggman have jet boosters, Knux/Rouge have digging tools. (Most of) the other characters/skins can do these abilites by default.

All characters can hover and dig, but only Sonic and Shadow can light dash. All other upgrades are disabled.

FlashTHD wrote:- Amy Flash stuns the opponent (or more accurately, locks their controller), but doesn't freeze the whole stage like Time Stop/Chaos Control, making it potentially deadlier if you get flash'd right near something that shoots at you or over a bottomless drop. As if she wasn't cheap enough.

This is the same mechanic used for the hunting characters' freezing move.

FlashTHD wrote:- His running punches are replaced by one long sliding punch

You can still perform the running three punch combo as Chaos, but it's insanely difficult due to the fact that he has absolutely no traction while doing so, and all the punches take so much time. But in large open areas, like Meteor Herd, it's doable, if not woefully ineffective.

FlashTHD wrote:- Good acceleration, which shoots up dramatically when you run in one direction long enough (the jet engine).

Hovering allows you to keep the ridiculous speed boost while turning, making him the most overpowered character in the game, essentially.

FlashTHD wrote:- You can still execute digging the same way Knux did in SA1 (jump + action simultaneously), but the timing's got to be dead on.

Pretty sure all you're doing is jumping and performing the Drill Claw/Drive a split-second after.

FlashTHD wrote:- Kart correction: "Grip" is also a disguise for weight. High grip like Knux and Eggman means super heavy cars.

Particularly, the Chao Kart is ridiculously light and the custom Eggman Kart sinks like a fucking stone.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby Wombatwarlord777 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:01 am

This may not even be worth mentioning, but I don't believe there's a third Chao Container in Hidden Base. But nevertheless, there's still a Dark-Animal available out in the open (the half-fish).

Also, Dark Animals in general seem to be more common than legendary animals. If I remember right, bats are treated like common animals in a few stages (they can be found in pipes, 2nd Chao Containers, ect), and I remember collecting four skeleton dogs in the Dreamcast version of Pumpkin Hill. Interestingly, you can collect up to three or four phoenixes in Dreamcast's Metal Harbor, while this number has been reduced to one for the Gamecube.

The exact stat changes of the animals on the Museum page would be nice.
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Re: 11 Years

Postby FlashTHD » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:11 pm

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:The exact stat changes of the animals on the Museum page would be nice.

+1. I've got Prima's SA2 DC guide which lists exact point increases for Chao stats, but no fucking way am I touching Chao Adventure 2 again just to verify them.

As for the GC version, stat increases per-level up are fixed based on the letter rank of each stat, so the animals (and fruit) increase/decrease the EXP bar by a few notches instead. On that note, you can also import rings (lump sum only), eggs, and fruit out of the Tiny Chao Garden.
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