This is why Christianity is made fun of

Wooduck51 · Post by **Wooduck51** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:53 pm

No, I don't want to be better than you. That was directly a response to your science thing.

The way I feel at least is that I have grown to like you guys and don't want to stand there one day and see you guys lined up for eternal torture and think to myself "It's my fault this is happening, I failed". I am not better than you if I convinced you to believe, or if I fail.

Now since you don't believe that what I believe is true then nothing there will bother you,.

Sniffnoy · Post by **Sniffnoy** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:28 pm

Now, I don't think arguing atheism vs. religion will get us anywhere, but we shouldn't have people making claims that are just plain wrong about known science.

We have no a priori reason to assume that the age of the universe is finite. (Remember Steady State Theory? Better yet, remember before it was even discovered that the universe is expanding, when it was thought the universe was basically static? Remember Einstein throwing in the cosmological constant because he thought the universe was static, then taking it back when it was found to be expanding?) I mean, using Newtonian mechanics, the age of the universe is pretty much implicitly infinite, seeing as how the theory is time-reversible so you can (in theory) calculate the past just as you can the future, and you can go as far back as you like, as unlike in relativity, you're not going to get any singularities cropping up that prevent you from continuing further. (...that's right, right?) We only know the age of the universe is finite *because* of Bing Bang Theory.

(Similarly, we don't have an a priori reason to say that something can't come from nothing. It's a nice intuitive statement, but it's still an assumption that can be done away with if necessary. I'd count virtual particles as "something". Or, again, remember Steady State Theory? A large number of scientists back in the 1950s were willing to believe that hydrogen atoms were constantly appearing out of nothing!)

Now, if you're going to argue that the finite age of the universe necessitates God, you're first going to have to use the fact that the age of the universe is finite. Which means that arguing that Big Bang Theory is wrong is not going to get you anywhere. If you want to argue that God caused the Big Bang, go ahead. (Actually, please don't. Then this thread will *really* degenerate into unprovables.) But don't try to argue against what science has already shown. Unless you can provide an alternative explanation for the cosmic microwave background? ("God created it to fool us into thinking there was a Big Bang" obviously doesn't count.)

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:29 pm

The way I feel at least is that I have grown to like you guys and don't want to stand there one day and see you guys lined up for eternal torture and think to myself "It's my fault this is happening, I failed". I am not better than you if I convinced you to believe, or if I fail.

Again, what makes you sure that you're right? You could be doomed from never reaching Nirvana, from another perspective.

And while I appreciate the sentiment somewhat, I don't think I'd join a religion that specifically tells me who I love is evil and sinful and that I should be stoned, but thanks.

Wooduck51 · Post by **Wooduck51** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:33 pm

Thank you for at least understanding, I really do mean what I said.

Post by **Popcorn** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:35 pm

You have nothing to worry about.

Post by **Esrever** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:51 pm

Wooduck, the reason that you have not convinved anybody you are right is because you haven't explained WHY you believe what you believe.

There's more to proving yourself right than simply proving other people wrong (which you didn't do anyway.) Even if you had cast doubts about evolution or the big bang, that does not make the biblical account of creation automatically correct. Proving a dog is not a cat does not mean the dog must actually be a bus. "Cat" and "bus" are only two of many possible options.

Disproving evolution, even if you can do it, merely eliminates one of an infinite number of possiblities. If you want to actually convince people that one specific possibility is right, you have support the specific possibility itself, not just trash one or two of the others.

So don't just tell us why evolution is wrong. Tell us why the bible is right. Share with us the evidence that actually actively supports Genesis.

For example, tell us the facts that support the notion that all life was created specifically by the Christian concept of God, rather than a different god or multiple gods or an alien race or a random mutation. Or maybe show us the geological records that confirm the earth is only 6000 years old. Explain to us the reasons why we know the Bible is accurate and other texts from other religions are not.

Go to it!

Wooduck51 · Post by **Wooduck51** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:16 pm

All right, that is actually what I needed to hear Ersever, thanks.
Give me some time, I am not a profound scholar, but it shouldn't take me long.....

Post by **Delphine** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:24 pm

Sniffnoy wrote:the universe is expanding

Completely off topic, but I love the fact that the universe is expanding. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. I mean, expanding into what? Will we ever find out? It's just -- it's cool. I've always thought that was so damn cool.

Okay, done jizzing over space theory.

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:28 pm

My thoughts on that was that there is just an infinite amount of nothingness out there. The universe is expanding into that nothingness. So basically if you could move faster than the rate of expansion you could potentially eventually just reach an infinite stretch of nothing.

I don't know enough about all those theories though. I tried reading a bit about it, but you gotta be really interested to care. I'm sure some one of my physics classes will at least cover that kinda thing briefly before I finish school.

Locit · Post by **Locit** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:38 pm

I remember reading a while back in a Discover about a different "Bang" theory. The gist of it was that the Big Bang as we know it was in fact one in a series of infinite bangs throughout time that occur every so often when two universes collide, or maybe it was when our universe collides with another one. The point was that as the universe emptied out and all the matter went off into nothingness there would eventually be another big bang when the universes collided once more, giving us a fresh batch of matter and energy. Perhaps I'm spouting gibberish I only think I remember, but I always thought it was really cool as a concept. It would also allow for an infinite number of chances for life to form through evolution, so that's pretty cool too.

Physics is neat!

SFC · Post by **SFC** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:41 pm

The thing with these religion vs. religion or religion vs. science battles is that no one ever wins. Remember that addage about arguing on the internet being like the special olympics?

One can't argue faith through factual evidence. Beliefs are just that - they are beliefs that can't be quantized by numbers or figures.

Post by **Popcorn** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:51 pm

SFC wrote:The thing with these religion vs. religion or religion vs. science battles is that no one ever wins. Remember that addage about arguing on the internet being like the special olympics?

And it's bollocks. Debating is fun and stimulating, a workout for the mind. People should argue about the things they believe regularly, if only to remind themselves why they believe them; it's important.

The purpose of debate isn't as simple as "Make the other person give in!!". When I debate with people, I tend to disagree strongly with them at the time but in following weeks/months reflect back and find that, in actuality, the debate has influenced my thinking in some ways I hadn't previously anticipated. Lively debate leaves echoes in the mind-- it's not about 'winning', it's about oiling the mechanics of one's rational faculties, getting the cogs turning.

One can't argue faith through factual evidence. Beliefs are just that - they are beliefs that can't be quantized by numbers or figures.

Aaaaarghhh. Have you read any of the thread? Belief is bullshit and I'm not going to spend another five pages explaining that to you, too.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:51 pm

Religion - 1
Science - 0

Seriously, where's the Extreme Teen Introduction to Thermodynamics?

I'd also like to note that I own this book, and it is neither extreme nor geared towards teens.

Post by **Delphine** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:04 pm

I believe that the sky is green. You can't argue with me because I believe it! Your facts mean nothing to me! Nothing! UNICORNS ARE REAL, DAMNIT!

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:11 pm

Delphine wrote:I believe that the sky is green. You can't argue with me because I believe it! Your facts mean nothing to me! Nothing! UNICORNS ARE REAL, DAMNIT!

Actually, I've seen a unicorn before. Granted, it was just a horse with an unusual bone growth covered in tin foil, but I did see it. It possessed no magical powers aside from occasionally picking up radio stations.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:26 pm

So would the Extreme Teen Bible feature Jesus snowboarding down a mountain while pirate nijnjas try to rape him using high explosives and doing a mountain do while popping pills and firing off randdom shots from a big-ass mother fuckin' gun?

Would it, essentially, be Shadow the Hedgehog but with Jesus? The Bible Part 2: Jesus Strikes Back?

Post by **Esrever** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:29 pm

Someone in my girlfriend's family gave us a copy of that book.

They try to explain the meaning of certain passages using simple, modern day examples that teens can "relate" to. I just find it hillarious that a book called the "extreme teen bible" is essentially claiming to be a definitive interpretation of the book when even the most authoritive religious scholars disagree about that.

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:34 pm

Baba O'Reily wrote: Religion - 1
Science - 0

Seriously, where's the Extreme Teen Introduction to Thermodynamics?

It isn't necessary since the subject matter is so simple anyway. Then again I always found hard math and science to be easier to digest then literary analysis.

Kishi · Post by **Kishi** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:41 pm

Delphine wrote:
Sniffnoy wrote:the universe is expanding
Completely off topic, but I love the fact that the universe is expanding. That's not sarcasm, I mean it. I mean, expanding into what? Will we ever find out? It's just -- it's cool. I've always thought that was so damn cool.

It <a href="http://www.newscientistspace.com/articl ... ue">may</a> be expanding inside the space of an even larger universe with a fourth spatial dimension.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:49 pm

Esrever wrote:Someone in my girlfriend's family gave us a copy of that book.

They try to explain the meaning of certain passages using simple, modern day examples that teens can "relate" to. I just find it hillarious that a book called the "extreme teen bible" is essentially claiming to be a definitive interpretation of the book when even the most authoritive religious scholars disagree about that.

Christianity seems to be the only religion that actively dumbs down its own works to appeal to a broader audience.

Post by **Delphine** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:23 pm

Pop culture dumbs down pretty much everything in order to appeal to a broader audience.

Wooduck51 · Post by **Wooduck51** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:47 am

Christianity seems to be the only religion that actively dumbs down its own works to appeal to a broader audience.

Don't lump all Christians in with something like that please.

Anyhoo I looked around and found the evidence you wanted me to,
here are the links to some pages:

link 1
The dinosaour thing was new to me actually I had never noticed it before whe n I had been reading before. The linking to T.V. thing is stretching it a bit though I thought.

link 2 This one has a good selection of archaeological stuff.

link 3

I did my nest to check all the Biblical references to make sure no one was fudging with any text to make a point. In fact science proves the Bible more than disproves it.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:39 am

Wooduck51 wrote:link 1
The dinosaour thing was new to me actually I had never noticed it before whe n I had been reading before.

Ahh, the fire-breathing "dinosaurs" that lived alongside humanity. By jove, what a fool I've been!

j-man · Post by **j-man** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:03 am

Don't lump all Christians in with something like that please

I think you're missing the point. He's saying that no other religion finds a need for a "kidz" version of their holy doctrines. I blame America, because it's easy.

Also, it needs to be said by someone that theological debates are impossible to conclude. The religious will always have a counterargument to anything that the atheists can think of. Most times, it's either "Oh, that's just what the Devil wants you to think" or my favourite one for the unexplainable, "God is capable of doing things we can't understand" and variations thereof. There is literally no way to stop a believer from believing; they have to feel strong enough disillusionment from their ideals that they themselves renounce them.

There's never any "proof", there's always just theory. The only proof would be if God Himself turned up and said "Yeah, this is how it goes". I think religion is a wonderful idea, I just hate people for shitting on it with their own homophobic or racist (two of the many tired examples) views, thus besmirching the values inherent. I'd "get" religion more if I wasn't so sure that, somewhere along the line, somebody thought they'd just fuck with people a bit and chuck in a load of out-dated, self-righteous bullshit. "Love thy neighbour," says the Bible, "Oh no, wait, unless they're gay or follow another religion. Sure, it's the same God, but let's say they're going to Hell anyway." Bollocks, is what it is. God made us all the way he made us (if he, indeed, did make us). We get told the values of religion by the religious, but who can seriously practice them when they contradict each other so badly?

I have no problem with God. I think he's an alright guy, and the Earth isn't all that bad. The only problem I have is with people for pissing all over his rep with misinformed, hateful preachy nonsense.

Oh, and for the record, I'm not atheist; I like to think of myself as somewhere inbetween on a journey of self-discovery. Yeah, I've talked to God; I'm just waiting to see if he answers. If I'm ever going to follow a religion, I want Him to show me what's right and what's wrong, because I sure as hell don't trust people to tell me my path in life.

Neo Yi · Post by **Neo Yi** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:38 am

And it's bollocks. Debating is fun and stimulating, a workout for the mind. People should argue about the things they believe regularly, if only to remind themselves why they believe them; it's important.

I don't mean to get this off-topic, but this is a quote I can believe and live with (I've recently gone through some whiny folks who complained due to me expressing my opinion, however blunt they may be).

As for the religious thingamabob, I believe in Christianty (well, mostly since I have some taoism in me), whoever doesn't believe in it, I don't care. It's their choice.