What can save the Sonic series?

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:57 pm

I agree with the 2-D sentiment. I mean, it's possible to make a beautiful game in 2-D while sticking to the game's mechanics. If not flat sprites, then maybe a Viewtiful Joe style Cel-Shading job if you want to flex the GCN's graphic power.

firemario1001 · Post by **firemario1001** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:06 pm

A playable version of the Sonic CD intro. But Sonic Team isn't up for the challenge to give Sonic THAT kind of freedom.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:17 pm

How in the world is Pac-Man VS streamlined? I think it's the clunkiest thing I've ever played, aside from simply not being much fun.

then maybe a Viewtiful Joe style Cel-Shading job if you want to flex the GCN's graphic power.

NO TOON SHADING.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:23 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:
then maybe a Viewtiful Joe style Cel-Shading job if you want to flex the GCN's graphic power.
NO TOON SHADING.

Sonic-fucking-Shuffle! >_<

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:34 pm

I think level design and the number of playable characters go hand and hand. Even if you limit the playable cast to STK it is pointless if the levels were designed with only Sonic in mind without any special paths or extras for the other characters. That is one of my main complaints with the Advance games I've played so far(1&2).

I wouldn't mind--no, I would prefer if they want multiple characters that the should limit to the Sonic Advance 3 cast and that each character have specific paths, bosses, etc. made based on their abilities and gameplay. Sonic should get the most levels since he's the main character.

If that is too challenging for them to do, then they should start from the basics and make Sonic the only playable character and really focus on creating good levels for him again. Well, there are also many people are complaining that they want to play as Sonic and only as Sonic.

And speaking of characters could someone tell Sonic Team not to create new hero/anti-hero characters or characters that are bad but turn good at the end? Seriously, the ratio of good to evil characters is ridiculous. If Sonic Team wants to create new characters then they should be bad and stay bad 'til the bitter end.

Also, if they want to use Super Sonic again(and I know they would) would it kill them to let him be playable in regular levels instead of only using him at the climax of the game?

And what is the deal with Naka? He says in an interview that he misses being a programmer and that he wants to do a 2-D Sonic game again, but he doesn't follow his words. Why did Sega/Sonic Team outsourced all of the Advance Sonic games to Dimps? Naka is listed as a producer and not a programmer in the recent Sonic games. Why doesn't he do both(speaking from someone who doesn't 100% exactly know what a Sonic Team producer does)?

Someone on another board I go to suggested that it would be a great benefit to the franchise if other Sega divisions like Amusement Vision created the next big Sonic game instead of ST. *shrugs* I would know since I never got the chance to play any AV games--yet.

But, like GG! said they should take a long break from Sonic games--have the DS/possible PSP games be the last Sonic games for awhile and that's it. While having them concentrate more on excellent, original franchises for the next-gen consoles. Have them collab with other Sega (former)divisions if possible. That will probably help Sega as a whole also.

CE · Post by CE » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:06 pm

Poor GG!.
No Wavebirds has he.
Nor backlit GBA SP.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:39 pm

Screw the Wavebird. I've got an SP, but I do not think playing hot potato with it qualifies as a sufficient immersion tactic. The game is a novelty and a fun diversion for all of two minutes, but there's nothing streamlined about it.

Post by **Esrever** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:37 am

Honestly, if you just rolled the 3D Sonic games back to the core gameplay of the original Sonic Adventure, I don't think these are that many seperate elements that need fixing. Only two things really come to my mind.

Pop the camera back at bit further away from Sonic and keep it locked tighter behind him and less "cinematic," so that you can see where the hell you are going, and so it can point in the right direction if you turn around. Maybe give us a "pop the camera behind" button, and a freelook with the second analog for when you are actually moving slow enough to use it.

Adopt more open-ended level design. And no, I'm not talking about getting Sonic to jack cars, I'm just talking about levels that actually feel like real environments instead of sparse, elevated race tracks. Sonic Adventure physically separated the exploration areas from the quicker sequences, and the slower-paced platforming gameplay from the speedy twitch segments. I still think this was a bad move. Is there like some unwritten rule where I can't run up a ramp, through a loop and land in a field, or something else that is more than three meters wide and isn't surrounded by bottomless pits? Is there a reason why, when the series has opened up an entire new dimension, the levels are now more linear and there are even less routes through them?

You all seem to love Twinkle Park, so I assume that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I really like that "grab" idea that Gibbon mentioned on the first page of this thread, and I actually had a similar idea myself one time. It's almost like an extension of the homing attack... just as the homing attack made it possible to attack enemies in 3D with the same ease that you did in 2D, so would the "grab" allow you to navigate complex platforming sections without developing some kind of supernatural artificial depth perception. You know that Sonic Heroes cutscene clip where Sonic is jumping from bit to bit of airborn shrapnel... the clip that was way cooler than the actual sky fleet level? Man, you could totally make something like that playable with a grab move and a well-implemented camera system.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:39 am

Spazz wrote:
Green Gibbon! wrote:
then maybe a Viewtiful Joe style Cel-Shading job if you want to flex the GCN's graphic power.
NO TOON SHADING.
Sonic-fucking-Shuffle! >_<

Now they're going to do it to spite you both.

hello.jpg · Post by **hello.jpg** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:29 am

Get a whole new Sonic Team. I mean it. Fire everyone and replace the whole goddamn team with up and coming programmers, designers and producers.

Yes, that includes Naka, unless he decides to program AND produce the new game, as Jolly already suggested.

In terms of actual design and gameplay, I really want them to surprise me. Of course, it'll be core "one jump button" Sonic at heart, but I want the new ideas to take me by surprise. That would be great. Especially after a suggested second 5 year hiatus.

However, it's all academic really, because whatever they come up with next, no one on this board will be satisfied. Which is a great shame.

CE · Post by CE » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:19 am

Green Gibbon! wrote:Screw the Wavebird. I've got an SP, but I do not think playing hot potato with it qualifies as a sufficient immersion tactic. The game is a novelty and a fun diversion for all of two minutes, but there's nothing streamlined about it.

What *isn't* streamlined about PacMan VS? It is a simple and extremely focused game with no superfluous unlockables, no stupid characters, no wasteful different modes of play. Isn't that what makes a game streamlined?

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:24 pm

What *isn't* streamlined about PacMan VS? It is a simple and extremely focused game with no superfluous unlockables, no stupid characters, no wasteful different modes of play. Isn't that what makes a game streamlined?

No, that just makes a game plain. (Not that the state of being plain is necessarily a bad thing.) A game can have all of those things and still be a focused, wholistic experience. Now, a game that requires most of the action to happen on the exterior -- ie, a game that trusts the players will switch controllers/GBA's when the screen prompts them to do so -- is trying to integrate a dynamic that it doesn't even have control over. It's like a "red light, green light" game that tells the player to physically move forward only when the light on the screen is green. It's almost more of a board game or even a playground game than a video game.

Half-baked rules aside, the game just isn't a whole lot of fun, especially not for the ghosts who spend most of the time running around with their limited field of vision hoping to run into Pac-Man. I mean, it's novel, and considering it was essentially "free" as a bonus with some other Namco games, I can't really complain. But it certainly doesn't belong in the same list as those others you mentioned.

Granted, when my friends and I played this, they were totally sober, which is extremely unusual for them.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:26 pm

You have friends?

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:28 pm

Only ill-natured stoners.

Post by **Popcorn** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:06 pm

'Wholistic' is a word?

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:10 pm

According to Webster's fourth edition college dictionary, it is an acceptable alternate spelling of "holistic." So suck it.

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:30 pm

Well, according to Gary Coleman's sixth edition midget dictionary, "fuckin' daffy" is an acceptable alternate spelling of "complete and utter lunatic". So suck it.

CE · Post by CE » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:14 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:
What *isn't* streamlined about PacMan VS? It is a simple and extremely focused game with no superfluous unlockables, no stupid characters, no wasteful different modes of play. Isn't that what makes a game streamlined?
No, that just makes a game plain. (Not that the state of being plain is necessarily a bad thing.) A game can have all of those things and still be a focused, wholistic experience.

I agree, a focused, cohesive game does not need to be completely streamlined. But you asked for examples of streamlined games, where all features that obscure the core mechanic have been pushed aside.

Now, a game that requires most of the action to happen on the exterior -- ie, a game that trusts the players will switch controllers/GBA's when the screen prompts them to do so -- is trying to integrate a dynamic that it doesn't even have control over. It's like a "red light, green light" game that tells the player to physically move forward only when the light on the screen is green. It's almost more of a board game or even a playground game than a video game.

You feel that being told to perform physical movement distracted you from the core mechanic of PacMan VS, the switch between hunter and hunted? Do you think the game would have been better if the control setup was like Crystal Cronicals and Four Swords? Perhaps you just didn't like PacMan VS. I can name tons of games that I consider streamlined, but I still don't like. Jet Grind Radio, Space Channel 5, Virtua Tennis are all relatively focused games that I just don't enjoy.

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:22 am

And now comes the bizarre admission that I actually liked the "hunting, shooting and fishing" segments of SA1/SADX. This is mainly because I'm fairly useless as actually playing as Sonic: I either can't handle the pace and die horribly, or go far too slowly and die horribly (the lava segment in Red Mountain springs to mind).

Characters in order of how good I am at them (ie in terms of percentage of their emblems got):

Big (12/13 = 92% [4 C's, 4 B's, 3 A's, Ending])
E-102 (11/16 = 69% [5 C's, 3 B's, 2 A's, Ending])
Knuckles (11/16 = 69% [5 C's, 4 B's, 1 A, Ending])
Amy (6/10 = 60% [3 C's, 1 B, 1 A, Ending])
Tails (8/16 = 50% [4 C's, 2 B's, 2 A's])
Sonic (11/31 = 35% [6 C's, 4 B's, 1 A])

As you can see, the distribution's somewhat uneven.

Baba O'Reily · Post by **Baba O'Reily** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:44 am

You, sir, fail at life and Sonic.

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:41 am

Baba O'Reily wrote:You, sir, fail at life and Sonic.

Well, at 19 I've got plenty of time for a resit at life, at least.

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:01 am

I got all 130 once. Was there even a point?

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:37 am

chriscaffee wrote:I got all 130 once. Was there even a point?

Depends whether you had SA or SADX. You get the minigames (one for every 20 Emblems or Missions) and Metal Sonic (all 130 Emblems) in SADX...

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:21 pm

But you asked for examples of streamlined games, where all features that obscure the core mechanic have been pushed aside.

Actually, that wasn't me that brought up the topic of streamlined.

You remember in Metal Gear Solid, when Psycho Mantis commanded you to put the controller on the ground? It was cute and quaint, and oh, I sure the hell did it (after making sure nobody else was in the room), but it's really pretty stupid. Giving the player(s) commands that aren't handled within the context of the game is sloppy design, and regardless of how you define "streamlined," I don't consider sloppy design to have any place in that definition. The entire basis of Pac-Man VS centers around this "swap controllers" thing, which is ultimately just a suggestion.

It's a poorly-conceived idea and a clunky mechanic. Pac-man VS, completely independent of being not fun, is also not streamlined.

Post by **Popcorn** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:32 pm

You remember in Metal Gear Solid, when Psycho Mantis commanded you to put the controller on the ground? It was cute and quaint, and oh, I sure the hell did it (after making sure nobody else was in the room), but it's really pretty stupid. Giving the player(s) commands that aren't handled within the context of the game is sloppy design

I completely agree with this. Have you heard that in MGS3, you can 'heal' Snake by not playing the game for a few days?