Of Hedgehogs and Squid

Ritz · Post by **Ritz** » Sun May 14, 2006 10:18 am

j-man wrote:When Sega mentioned returning Sonic to his roots, it's weird how suddenly everyone assumes they're going to make Sonic 1 in 3D or something. It's the reason why Sonic Robo Blast (stupid name) didn't work; you can't just "make" a 2D game into 3D.

That's what SRB2 originally set out to do, yes, but it became something entirely different. It represents exactly what I want the series to be; it presents an ideal balance of speed and exploration, and the loose physics allow you to pull off a myriad of things that the Sonic series should allow you to do, but doesn't. Stuff like this. But then, that's just me.

Also, while we're on the subject of fangames, have any of you heard of Dimension Warped? It doesn't offer much in the way of gameplay as of now, but it's still pretty fackin'.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:11 am

I've played Dimension Warped. It's not very fun. Imagine playing a third person shooter where you can run really fast but you don't have any guns.

That's kind of what it's like. To be fair, though, he did have classic-style Sonic physics working (loops and stuff). Then again, I played it a really long time ago. I think the project kind of petered out. I think he's having trouble finding mappers, or something. I dunno.

Ritz · Post by **Ritz** » Sun May 14, 2006 12:03 pm

BlazeHedgehog wrote:I think he's having trouble finding mappers, or something. I dunno.

Is that so? I've fooled around with the Torque engine before, I'll contact him and see what he says. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:40 pm

BlazeHedgehog wrote: I expected a quality re-evaluation of the Sonic franchise - not another "Better hurry up and shovel the game out for next Christmas" title. "Quality over quantity" and all that nonsense. This is not a good way for Sonicteam to keep fans. "We're going to reboot the franchise, but we're totally not going to put any real thought into it and instead we'll just give you the same game you've been playing since 1999." I expected more good ideas than bad.

BlazeHedgehog wrote: I'm not going to look a gift-horse in the mouth, of course, but Sonic 2k6 is less of a gameplay change than even Sonic Heroes - the changes in Sonic 2k6 (compared to Sonic Adventure games) are like the changes you see between games like Madden 2006 and Madden 2007. Unfortunately, Sonic doesn't quite have the "yearly update" appeal that Madden does.

I don't think I'm asking too much.

Maybe, for the SONICTEAM and SEGA eyes, you do.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Mon May 15, 2006 10:46 pm

If actually living up to your promises is asking too much of Sega and Sonicteam, then they really need to re-evaulate how they treat their customers.

It's like the boy who cried wolf. There's only so many times they can dig up somebody fans give a shit about (especially with Naka over at Prope now) to say, "We're going to try to re-invent Sonic to be more like the old games (except we're really not, and we're just going to tell you that we are so you'll get excited)" before people just give up.

Then again, look at the Megaman franchise. I've theorized Sonic is becoming Sega's Megaman, and when you look at how Megaman fans cling to that series - no matter how shit it gets, no matter how many spin-offs and re-inventions are made, the diehards are still there. Megaman ZX is a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off.

Think about that for a moment. Is that Sonic's future? I sure hope not. Might look good on paper to a marketing goon, but to me - joe consumer - it is extremely depressing.

Post by **G.Silver** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:02 pm

The trick is a little creepy and Orwellian. All you have to do is keep pumping out new stuff and marketing it to new players--if Sega had taken the games after Sonic 2 and twisted them in a direction to match the comics or cartoons, for instance, "fans" would have freaked, but the people who got into it through the show wouldn't think anything of it. "Fans" who jump in at Sonic Adventure won't know any different, "fans" who jump in at Sonic Heroes, or from watching Sonic X, or god help us, Shadow the Hedgehog--they know what they like and it's what Sega's dishing. As long as they keep eating it up Sega's not going to do any different.

You aren't Joe Consumer, I'm afraid to say, and it's much easier to court old Joe, who's taste isn't quite so refined.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:02 am

Then again, look at the Megaman franchise. I've theorized Sonic is becoming Sega's Megaman, and when you look at how Megaman fans cling to that series - no matter how shit it gets, no matter how many spin-offs and re-inventions are made, the diehards are still there. Megaman ZX is a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off.

That's not a bad thing. Ironically, it's always the first two or three games in every Megaman franchise that's the best. Megaman Zero's series was good. X's best were 1,2,5. The Classic series and Battle Network should've both stopped at three. Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that some Megaman games are still decent, at the very least.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:56 am

Zeta wrote:
Then again, look at the Megaman franchise. I've theorized Sonic is becoming Sega's Megaman, and when you look at how Megaman fans cling to that series - no matter how shit it gets, no matter how many spin-offs and re-inventions are made, the diehards are still there. Megaman ZX is a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off.
That's not a bad thing. Ironically, it's always the first two or three games in every Megaman franchise that's the best. Megaman Zero's series was good. X's best were 1,2,5. The Classic series and Battle Network should've both stopped at three. Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that some Megaman games are still decent, at the very least.

Okay, so Sonic is worse than Sega's Megaman, because Sonic's spinoffs are shit from the get-go.

Post by **Popcorn** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:01 am

G.Silver wrote:The trick is a little creepy and Orwellian. All you have to do is keep pumping out new stuff and marketing it to new players--if Sega had taken the games after Sonic 2 and twisted them in a direction to match the comics or cartoons, for instance, "fans" would have freaked, but the people who got into it through the show wouldn't think anything of it. "Fans" who jump in at Sonic Adventure won't know any different, "fans" who jump in at Sonic Heroes, or from watching Sonic X, or god help us, Shadow the Hedgehog--they know what they like and it's what Sega's dishing. As long as they keep eating it up Sega's not going to do any different.

Right, but every time they invent a SatAM or a Shadow they piss off the previous generation of fans. They can't carry on like this-- they need some fan loyalty, and that can't come from pissing all over the existing fanbase's interests every time they reincarnate Sonic. Saying that, I think there has been some kind of continuity in recent years. Just the wrong kind. T

he current lot of games appeal to youngsters who like the character and aren't mature/smart enough to see the horribly flawed woods for the initially attractive trees, so the games sell solidly, but the series won't ever recover the sales it enjoyed in the early 90s because right now it's just not good enough.

Sega, in theory, are onto a quality franchise here, and have been since 1991, but for too long they've been riding on the appeal of the character rather than quality. They're creating and discarding fans with every sequel and spin-off. Meanwhile, Sonics 1+3k were and are still regarded as some of the best games ever made, with a depth of quality that has outlasted their initial appeal.

Sonic should have become one of those respected, long-running game series like Zelda and Final Fantasy where a reliable degree of quality has ensured their repeated sales in the millions... I just don't think this kind of run-and-gun approach to the franchise can possibly be doing Sega as much good as a more careful and considered strategy might have done.

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:26 pm

I seriously don't think Sega cares whether the next Sonic game aims to be potential Game of the Year quality or not. Thanks to the franchise in terms of character, as you said, Popcorn, being popular in the West for children, and fans who haven't played a real quality video game in ages, Sega seems to be quite satified if a Sonic game moves 500,000 to 1,000,000 units between three platforms. To Sega, why put any effort spend any more money and time actually perfecting a game when people will lap up any half-assed effort as long as it has Sonic's or his pals's shit-eating grin on the cover? Hell, just now we are finally moving from early DC-era graphics with the release of Sonic 2K6 and, er, I guess Sonic Wild Fire.

I have no doubt that the Sonic franchise is nothing more than a commodity to fund the games Sega really wants to make such as Yakuza while making Sammy happy. =P

Professor Machenstein · Tue May 16, 2006 3:37 pm

Ngangbius wrote:I have no doubt that the Sonic franchise is nothing more than a commodity to fund the games Sega really wants to make such as Yakuza while making Sammy happy. =P

I always had that thought too, only regarding Sonic games also. I theorize on the possibility that SONICTEAM is half-assing some Sonic games just to fund in money to one day make better ones. As evident, games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog had minimal to no production value, yet they sold. In contrast, look at SONIC the Hedgehog; speaking on a technical standpoint, how did we get from shitty Nintendo 64 graphics (Shadow the Hedgehog) to the best the series has ever looked (SONIC the Hedgehog)? It is still an unhealthy way to handle a franchise, no doubt, but maybe SONICTEAM was not as rich at the time as we thought. If your budget is low, why go out and make "the rebirth of the series" when you know you cannot afford to make it not suck?

In summary, yes, it is a matter of money. You are correct, Ngangbius. For all we know, SEGA is using Sonic to fund in money to make games SEGA actually wants to make, perhaps including a better Sonic game. Who knows?

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:32 pm

Professor Machenstein wrote:I theorize on the possibility that SONICTEAM is half-assing some Sonic games just to fund in money to one day make better ones. As evident, games like Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog had minimal to no production value, yet they sold.

Had SEGA anything for funding the original SONIC the Hedgehog? Wasn't SONIC the Hedgehog 2 just a matter of time after the early success of the original?
I think that's not the matter, although it has VERY MUCH to do. Good Sonic games ARE funding for even BETTER Sonic games.

If it's not... we all are fucking damned.

Professor Machenstein · Tue May 16, 2006 6:25 pm

I should add talent also has a hand in competent game development, but we already know that. Repetition and all. You need air to breathe air.

Actually, back in the day, you did not need over millions of dollars and a development team of three hundred or so to make an acceptable game at the least. All that was required was maybe twenty or thirty people and a few thousand dollars, from what I can estimate, to make something revolutionary. Demands were not so high.

I am not saying the original Sonic games got off easy, not at all. Only I can imagine how easy it was to make a fresh-out-of-the-oven series with no fan demands and less money rather than a tired series with many fan demands, all contradicting each other, with more money to complete.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Tue May 16, 2006 8:19 pm

Ngangbius wrote:I seriously don't think Sega cares whether the next Sonic game aims to be potential Game of the Year quality or not. Thanks to the franchise in terms of character, as you said, Popcorn, being popular in the West for children, and fans who haven't played a real quality video game in ages, Sega seems to be quite satified if a Sonic game moves 500,000 to 1,000,000 units between three platforms. To Sega, why put any effort spend any more money and time actually perfecting a game when people will lap up any half-assed effort as long as it has Sonic's or his pals's shit-eating grin on the cover? Hell, just now we are finally moving from early DC-era graphics with the release of Sonic 2K6 and, er, I guess Sonic Wild Fire.

I have no doubt that the Sonic franchise is nothing more than a commodity to fund the games Sega really wants to make such as Yakuza while making Sammy happy. =P

Precisely. Sonic games don't have to be good anymore. Before? Sonicteam carried Sega as a hardware provider. Sonicteam was Sega's golden development team, responsible for some of the most memorable Sega titles. Now that the Dreamcast is gone, has been gone, no longer does Sega really need Sonic to be their flagship title; as long as Sonic makes enough money to keep Sega in business, it doesn't matter if the game is good or bad.

In other words, it gives them a margin to slack off. Exploit a brand identity for all he's worth.

I want to know... Sonic 2k6; is it a game to try and re-enforce Sonic as a brand-identity (in other words, an attempt to gain some respect back) or is it just another cash-in? It has elements that seem to say both.

Zarathustra · Post by **Zarathustra** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:48 am

BlazeHedgehog wrote:Sonicteam carried Sega as a hardware provider. Sonicteam was Sega's golden development team, responsible for some of the most memorable Sega titles.

Hey, don't forget Yu Suzuki's AM2, man. Without Hang-on, Space Harrier, After Burner, OutRun and the shit, there would be no SEGA.

Ngangbius · Post by **Ngangbius** » Wed May 17, 2006 12:11 pm

Agreed, and lets not forget the Virtua Fighter franchise. =)

Actually, the Smilebit(or what was left of Smilebit) has also been carrying Sega quality-wise post DC.

BlazeHedgehog · Post by **BlazeHedgehog** » Wed May 17, 2006 12:56 pm

Yeah, yeah. I knew you guys'd get picky. "OMG DON'T FORGET AMUSEMENT VISION AND UGA AND AND..."

Doesn't matter. Sonicteam used to be the top dog of them all, with Yuji Naka considered Sega's Miyamoto. And the first game Sonicteam produced in the wake of the Dreamcast's failure (Sonic Adventure 2) was coincidentally the first game where flamewars over the game's quality (rather than flamewars over the character design changes) began. There was a quite a bit of lazy and poor gameplay in SA2, and as we all know, it only got worse from there.

There's just no drive behind the series anymore. Nobody is passionate about the franchise, it seems. Which is unfortunate.

SegaSonic · Post by **SegaSonic** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:58 pm

BlazeHedgehog wrote:Yeah, yeah. I knew you guys'd get picky. "OMG DON'T FORGET AMUSEMENT VISION AND UGA AND AND..."

Doesn't matter. Sonicteam used to be the top dog of them all, with Yuji Naka considered Sega's Miyamoto. And the first game Sonicteam produced in the wake of the Dreamcast's failure (Sonic Adventure 2) was coincidentally the first game where flamewars over the game's quality (rather than flamewars over the character design changes) began. There was a quite a bit of lazy and poor gameplay in SA2, and as we all know, it only got worse from there.

There's just no drive behind the series anymore. Nobody is passionate about the franchise, it seems. Which is unfortunate.

Unlike Mario who as Miyamoto says, has a staff that brings new Ideas and are constanly thinking up cool stuff! Not to mention Miyamoto himself loves Mario.

What I think happens is that Sonic was a team effort, so nobody can really think up stuff for him, one of the reasons being that the only person who kept creating ideas,motivations and stories from behind the scenes is gone. Not only that but he was the one who drew Sonic and other characters, created story, mood and Directed very succesful titles.

If you ask me, he was the Miyamoto of Sonic Team but because they treated him like grabage he left the team, aswell as other important people like the level designer whom Naka called useless. You see Sonic Team isnt a team at all, its filled with Ego maniacs and most of its good Team members are gone now. Sonic is still alive by a small thin thread and we are waiting until it snaps...to me it already snapped when Dreamcast died.

Ritz · Post by **Ritz** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:51 pm

SegaSonic wrote:If you ask me, he was the Miyamoto of Sonic Team but because they treated him like grabage he left the team, aswell as other important people like the level designer whom Naka called useless.

And where did you hear about this?

SegaSonic · Post by **SegaSonic** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:59 pm

Well its ovious isnt it? he made Sonic but they didnt gave him a higher rank, So he left to become his own boss.

Naka's contribution to Sonic was speed, but Oshima's contribution was intricate, tightly designed platform levels. His inspiration was Super Mario, games that rewarded exploration and depth above barreling through as quickly as possible.

Brazillian Cara · Post by **Brazillian Cara** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:59 pm

The intranet, it seems.

Ritz · Post by **Ritz** » Wed May 17, 2006 7:09 pm

Oh, so you're just pulling assumptions out of your ass? I would've squealed if that 'useless' bit were an actual quote. Dammit, I'm all excited now. You know what? Go choke on cancer and die.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Wed May 17, 2006 7:14 pm

SegaSonic wrote:Naka's contribution to Sonic was speed, but Oshima's contribution was intricate, tightly designed platform levels. His inspiration was Super Mario, games that rewarded exploration and depth above barreling through as quickly as possible.

You really have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, huh?

SegaSonic · Post by **SegaSonic** » Wed May 17, 2006 7:14 pm

Ritz wrote:Oh, so you're just pulling assumptions out of your ass? I would've squealed if that 'useless' bit were an actual quote. Dammit, I'm all excited now. You know what? Go choke on cancer and die.

http://www.danielthomas.org/pop/classics/soniccd.htm

You really have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, huh?

It wasnt me.

Omni Hunter · Post by **Omni Hunter** » Wed May 17, 2006 7:33 pm

Yeah, but this source has a source called "A friend". It's hardly official stuff, just opinion.

And let's face it, there are quite a few shit ones out there on the Interton.