New Shadow the Hedgehog details

[Professor Machenstein]

Well, try to look at it this way; it's not a Sonic game. Pretend the game is totally non Sonic-related. Shadow has been stripped entirely out of the Sonic universe to form his own. Eggman may be in it, but just pretend that it's another Eggman for use of the Shadow universe. The term Bizarro World may come in quite handy. Now think of SEGA. Now SEGA is obviously trying to humor us, teaching us a lesson in pain. Sheer redicule should be a more accurate describtion of this joke. A spoof of everything that tries to be edgey. Now look at the trailer again. Doesn't seem as strange now, doesn't it. Just expect the game to be a cheap comical reference.

This Shadow game has nothing to do with Sonic's progress in the gaming industry. In fact, it's not even being made by Sonic Team. Fine, the Sonic Team logo will be printed on it, but it's being made by Iizuka and the folks at SEGA Studio USA. Sonic Team will bring us the true Sonic installment, Sonic 2K5, this year. We will haaaaaaaave to wait until E3 to determine the progress of the Sonic universe. If Shadow the Hedgehog is the only 128-BIT game being released by Sonic Team this year, then I might as well join the bandwagon and call 2005 another despressing year for Sonic, just like 2004 was.

[Guest]

If Sonic 2K5 is better than any of the previous installments, I'll call it a day. But if 2K5 ends up being another Sonic Heroes (same 3D engine + insipid gameplay idea), I'll stop caring about both Sega and Sonic, and I'll move on to something else. I don't know what, but definantly something less DEPRESSING.

I mean, at least Mario Sunshine had SOME challenge (although it had the same formula Sonic has... which isn't surprising).

El Cernex, saying "Beer is bad, folks. Believe me"

[big_smile]

I have high hopes for the next Sonic game. Firstly, at last years E3 Naka-san strongly suggested that he had abandoned the idea of 3D, claiming that “in order to really enjoy Sonic, 2D is truly the way to do it.â€￾ While 2D doesn’t necessarily guarantee quality (see the Advance series), there’s a lot less to go wrong with it and it is a format that Naka has proven to be a master of.

Secondly, Naka has so far only referred to the new game as a Gamecube title. This removes the compromises that come from developing a game for all three platforms. A Sega executive at the Nintendo’s Gamer Summit 2003 let slip that a Gamecube Sonic title was in development. If that title is the same as Naka’s new game, then it will have had over 2 years worth of development time before its release, which again reduces the possibility for error.

Finally, unlike the 3D Sonic titles, Naka appears to be having a bigger role in this new game, whereas Iizukia seems to be staying away from it, which suggests that there will be fewer gimmicky ideas.

Of course, I’ve had high hopes for every Sonic game, so, unless you enjoy being disappointed, it’s probably best to ignore me. ^_^

[Crazy Penguin]

Didn't Naka also say that the GC game would be a mix of 2D and 3D?

[Professor Machenstein]

That was Sonic DS.

[j-man]

I don't know. As much as I love the old 2D games, I don't know if I'd want to play a new one. I mean, a 3D Sonic game could kick royal ass, they just need to, y'know, try. I hanker for the old days too, but unfortunately we're in the "3D Age", and I don't think a fully 2D console Sonic would stand up to the competition.

[Green Gibbon!]

I just don't think there's anywhere left to go with 2D Sonic. To my reckoning, S&K was the pinnacle of the formula. The problem with 3D Sonic is the opposite - there's so much potential, but Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.

[j-man]

Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.

QED.

[Crazy Penguin]

I think there's room to expand upon Sonic 3 & Knuckles. The partner system in Chaotix and Sonic Advance 3 could add a whole new dimension if used properly and the rest of the game doesn't suck. One of the best things about Sonic 3 & Knuckles was how differently the game levels played out when playing as Knuckles, the possibility to mix and patch pairs of characters with abilities as drastically different as those of Sonic and Knuckles in S3&K, with levels built to take advantage of these abilities would be fantastic. Chaotix and Sonic Advance 3 were both wasted potential.

[Professor Machenstein]

Hey, I like Chaotix!
As for what SEGA could do to the original Sonic 2D engine... I have a couple suggestions. As Sonic runs a loop-de-loop, the camera will center Sonic and the stage rotates independantly, giving you a motion trip on the opticals. As for the co-op thingy, they should use the same co-op engine as the one in Kirby Superstar, whilst the COM or 2P player come off the screen, the character instantly comes right back to the center of the screen next to the 1P character. Somewhat like Tails from STH2 and 3, but quicker.

EDIT: I made a visual example about my first suggestion. Take a look.

[Frieza2000]

Yes, there's still room for a few 2D titles. As Crazy Penguin said, the charcter pairing had great potintial. But even without that, I could go for another S3&K with new levels if they're on par with the quality of the old stuff.

Maybe Sonic Team is overworked. Before they made Sonic adventure, the key design team went on a vacation together for inspiration. That must've had a strong impact on how it turned out.

[Green Gibbon!]

If there is 2D life beyond S&K, I don't think character pairing of any kind is the answer.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

Not under Iizuka, Dimps, or Jupiter's control, anyway.

[Crazy Penguin]

If there is 2D life beyond S&K, I don't think character pairing of any kind is the answer.

Why not? It wouldn't be the "definitive" way to do Sonic, but nor was Spinball and that was a good enough concept that expanded upon an aspect of the main games. The character pairing in Chaotix and Sonic Advance 3 was basically just an expansion of Tails running behind Sonic in Sonic 2. The execution was poor but the concept was intriguing enough.

[Locit]

but Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.

As for what SEGA could do to the original Sonic 2D engine... I have a couple suggestions. As Sonic runs a loop-de-loop, the camera will center Sonic and the stage rotates independantly, giving you a motion trip on the opticals.

[j-man]

I don't consider that as glaringly disfunctional as, say, team-based gameplay.

[Omni Hunter]

True, I think that when it comes to using more that 2 characters it can hinder the gameplay somewhat.

[Frieza2000]

The 2 character teams could work for another game if they designed the levels better. But I wouldn't keep it around for more than 1 or 2 games.

And haven't Sonic games always had gimmicks? Sonic 2 added a character. Sonic CD had time travel. Sonic 3 added another character and the paths that are only accessible to certain characters. Sonic and Knuckles had the lock on. These are all less blaringly obvious than Heroes or Advance 3, but I've always thought that a flashy gimmick was part of the Sonic experience; part of that attitude that they used to sell the games.

[Green Gibbon!]

Those weren't just gimmicks, though, especially not from Sonic 1-3, which featured not only new characters, but evolved level design and tighter physics, plus additional ways to interact with the environment. The overall experience was enhanced without being compromised, which is what a sequel should do.

[Omni Hunter]

In Sonic Heroes the ability to use certain characters at certain times affected the level design so large pits would define a clear path to follow and make sure you have to think of how to get to th next "safe spot".
I hated that compromise. It could have been carried out better.

[Spazz]

I don't think a fully 2D console Sonic would stand up to the competition.

True, but do <i>we</i> care?
Aside from the fact that they lose money and quality greatly decreases or they go out of business..

[Delphine]

quality greatly decreases

They're doing pretty well with that on their own.

[Spazz]

Yeah, I was expecting that, heheh.

[Guest]

True that. Sonic is ALREADY lossing a lot of quality on their own.

I don't know... the "advance" series already showed us that Sonic Team kindda lost it's touch. The pairing sounds interesting, but, let's admit it: if that gimnick slows down the game, it's a BAD gimnick. They need to find a way to add the "Teams" gameplay WITHOUT slowing the game, like Heroes did.

Oh yeah, and let's admit it: Independently of S&K being the best 2D Sonic game out there or not, the "advance" series is REALLY below it's standards. If they make a 2D Sonic game which compares to S&K, I'll be a miracle. Really.

El Cernex

(P.S: Have you noticed this is, so far, one of the only topics wihtout a boobie reference so far???)

[Crazy Penguin]

Admittedly a partner system would only work if it was played as neither a gimmick nor an essential part of the gameplay. It should be entirely optional, just like Sonic 2 and 3 gave you the option of playing as Sonic without Tails running behind. However for those that do want to use the system it should enhance the playing experience and explorability, just like Knuckles did in S3&K (but to a greater degree due to the pairing customisability amongst the pool of characters).

Take Sonic 3 for example, where player 2 could use Tails to airlift Sonic to places, that was a nice feature apart from the fact that it could only be controlled by player 2. You never had to use it, and you could play the game with Sonic alone with no problems, but if you did use it you could bypass some obstacles quicker and reach new areas (though the only one that comes to mind is the hidden item boxes in Hidden Palace Zone).

If it was turned into a perfectly workable 1 player feature, and made more useful, it could add quite a bit of replay value.

I just want to see that expanded upon, in a way that's useful, optional and doesn't detract from the game.

In both Sonic Advance 3 and Chaotix it was useless because all of the characters played as similarly as Sonic and Tails did in S3&K rather than as differently as Sonic and Knuckles did in S3&K.

It was a forced, not optional feature in both Sonic Advance 3 and Chaotix (although in Sonic Advance 3 you could still get by well enough ignoring the parner).

In Chaotix it detracted from the game because it turned simple running and platform navigation into a control nightmare.

And don't even get me started on Heroes which was flawed on multiple levels.

But executed correctly I seriously think that an optional partner system could greatly enhance a 2D Sonic platformer.