Sonic Unleashed?

[Segaholic2]

Instead, I think Amy would be more interesting if she were more tom-boyish, atheletic and egdy,

Yeah, that stereotype is WAY more interesting than that other stereotype.

[CM August]

All I know is that she's terminally annoying and deserves to die.

SA was the last game where I enjoyed her presence; her Sonic-stalking antics are utterly charmless by this point.

[Kogen]

She is barely even in the games, how is it an issue?

[CM August]

That's funny, I recall her being in just about every Sonic game this past decade in a prominent (if non-playable) role.

[Baba O'Riley]

Instead, I think Amy would be more interesting if she were more tom-boyish, atheletic and egdy,

Yeah, that stereotype is WAY more interesting than that other stereotype.

Archetypes aren't always bad if they're done well. I'm fond of Amy's stalker-with-a-crush schtick, but it can easily get grating.

The whole tomboy thing is pretty much played out, though. If not in Sonic, then in every other game in existence.

[Ngangbius]

Wasn't she described as a damn tomboy who was obessesed with Sonic in the first-place or at least in previous game JP manuals, IIRC? I guess it could explain the old "Rosy the Rascal" moniker.

Archetypes aren't always bad if they're done well.

And we all know how well Sonic Team can pull off archetypes!

[Ngangbius]

And blast, I can't edit my previous post. :-( So forgive me for posting twice in a row.

Sometimes I think that Sega got Amy's personality in SA1 wrong.

Actually, I thought they got it right as she wasn't that obessed with Sonic like now. She wanted to help that Flicky find its family and at least try to learn to defend herself instead of overly depend on Sonic similar to the type of development Tails recieved in SA1. But then Sonic Team just tossed that bit of development in the following games and said, "eh, screw it! Let's make her unfunny!" As much as I hated Sonic Chronicles, I have to admit that Bioware did a better job at developing her character to make her more likeable than Sonic Team did for the past few games.

[Wombatwarlord777]

SA2 also helped to create a bit of depth in Amy's personality, even if she was rather useless plot-wise. The scene in which she's stunned speechless after Sonic is thought to have died is a nice change from her usual energetic maniac-depressive personality. And much like the Flicky from SA1, Amy's speech to Shadow shows that she has more concerns than just Sonic.

Heroes was probably the game to cement Amy's personality into the whiny Sonicophile she's largely become. I guess because the story in that game was much more streamlined than the Adventure games, there was less room for characters development of any complexity. So instead, the plot relied upon easily identifible stock personalities, like the cocky hero, the young sidekick, the brooding anti-hero, and of course, the star-struck maiden.

It amazes me how much personality the Genesis sprites were able to convey, even with the absence of relatively advanced technology and voice acting.

[Crazy Penguin]

Tails was at his best in the Sonic OVAs. He had a workshop and gadgets and flew the Tornado, but he still got to run around and fight robots with Sonic, and actually acted like a child at times.

Tails lost most of his charm when the sidekick/little brother role was de-emphasised and he was made less cute. Now he's not a cute character or a cool character or a funny character... he's just sort of there.

He doesn't even fly much any more. That was his schtick! He has two tails! He uses them to fly like a helicopter! A helicopter fox! That's as wacky as a blue hedgehog that runs at the speed of sound!

Come on Sega, work with what you've got.

[Kogen]

That kind of annoyed me that he never flies as much. It is like if Sonic suddenly just stopping rolling - oh wait.

I think a problem they made with Tails was making him tall, so he looks older than he is supposed to be, then they try to go on about how he has 'matured' and so on. It is still the same guy doing the general art for the games, so I do not know what he is doing. Surely he knows it was better before? He made it.

It has been 10 years since Adventure was released world wide, perhaps they should just redesign it all again. It is just kind of stuck in a level of 'stale - good', which is not exactly a great place for something as popular as Sonic. It is just not going anywhere.

[Wombatwarlord777]

Kogen wrote:
It has been 10 years since Adventure was released world wide, perhaps they should just redesign it all again. It is just kind of stuck in a level of 'stale - good', which is not exactly a great place for something as popular as Sonic. It is just not going anywhere.

It's probably time for that five-year sabathical that was suggested after the completion of Sonic and Knuckles. Most of the gaming public is tired with the mediocre/awful Sonic games as of late and Sega doesn't seem to currently have the in-house talent to make great new Sonic game. Maybe after Sega gets their financial/organizational bearings in check, (or after the company goes belly up and the Sonic franchise is given to a new, hopefully more responsible developer) and after people aren't constantly bombarded with middling Sonic games for some time, maybe it will be appropriate to re-introduce him a la Sonic Adventure.

But I doubt this will happen, given how much Sega Sammy depends on a constant slew of new Sonic games.

Crazy Penguin wrote:
He doesn't even fly much any more. That was his schtick! He has two tails! He uses them to fly like a helicopter! A helicopter fox! That's as wacky as a blue hedgehog that runs at the speed of sound!

Come on Sega, work with what you've got.

Much like the mushrooms, pipes, angry turtles, ect. of the Mario series, it's the small quirky things that gives the Sonic games their personality. Like a hyperactive hedgehog, a flying fox, rings floating everywhere for no apparent reason, landscapes made of loops and floating platforms, aerial battles between a WWI-era biplane and a hulking flying fortress, and so on. The recent Sonic games really have lost sight of what makes Sonic so unique.

[Kogen]

You have to be joking to yourself if you think one of the most popular franchises in video games is not going to have any releases for five years. Would any of the current fans even care by then?

I think when they said that, they meant Sonic Team never wanted to do any more (which they obviously got a kick in the ass about, helping ruin the Saturn with a transgender clown mascot). As was apparent, American and portable teams had no intent on stopping production. Really, why would they want to as a business - or why would the fans want that?

[Shadow Hog]

Getting off of this discussion for a second.

Also I got the soundtrack and I really hope it wins an award for music instead a game like guitar hero with their fucking licensed soundtracks.

Seriously, ignoring the impossibility of this game winning any awards (the press? Throwing Sonic a bone? Really?), it's friggin' phenomenal. It almost seems like a waste to use the main theme on this title (the one the Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra did - the one on the title screen/country select). It almost sounds like something that'd have worked for a new Skies of Arcadia, to be honest...

[Dr. BUGMAN]

You have to be joking to yourself if you think one of the most popular franchises in video games is not going to have any releases for five years. Would any of the current fans even care by then?

While they may not be their company's heavy hitters, Metroid and EarthBound came back with applause. Hell, Mario proper get's only like one game a generation.

Of course the problem with Sonic is that it's Sega's only popular IP, never mind that they Virtua Fighter, Space Harrier, etc to suppliment their income. They have to realise that, though.

[Ngangbius]

So do people agree that even this game feels somewhat souless due to what was explained in the last two pages in this thread?

[gr4yJ4Y]

Sega can't afford to sell Sonic or stop making Sonic games. I think Sonic will go down with the ship if the company ever has to declare bankruptcy. In the states, companies can go under while still retaining many of their properties and reemerge as a new company after chapter 11 bankruptcy. I'm not sure how that works in Japan though.

They need to get Tails actually using his Tails to fly again. Other than with the Rivals games, Tails hasn't flown around levels since Sonic Heroes (with Sonic and Knuckles dragging him down). I think Sega is afraid of investing in level designs that give you that kind of freedom and reward of exploration.

But maybe they should give Tails and Knuckles their own levels again if they're having such a hard time increasing game time with these turbo-boost Sonic levels.

[Kogen]

Well he still flies in the games, just Tails is not given a real role like before. For flying examples: Sonic 06, Sonic Riders 2, Sonic Chronicles. Games where he is with Sonic, as is the entire point of a side kick, he is either non-playable (thusly not flying, or just in the plane) or it is some sort of spinoff that is not a platformer. The Rush metre thing also makes it worse (and everything else, that 'boost' is supposed to come from speed shoes, not reflect the level design of the entire game...).

Sonic Team designers think each new game needs a new character/gimmick (Silver/Chucking shite, Werehog/Punching shite) and are too stupid to realise what their fanbase wants. The director of Unleashed thinks the Advance games are better than the Genesis games and would remake them instead of the games everyone wants, for example. He even said he could do a Sonic 4 with their new engine, but implied he does not really want to. That is how out of touch they are with the fan base and the series.

SEGA of America is just full of idiots. On one hand, they know old Sonic titles are popular, yet at the same time the president said "Classic Sonic does not gel with people anymore". Although even if they did do it, we would just get Rivals and Sonic Genesis quality products.

SEGA of Europe probably knows better, but do they have a team to do it? Sports Interactive is not going to and I do not think Creative Assembly wants to or knows how to.

And before I meant Sonic is a popular franchise, not just a popular game franchise. Cartoons, comics, general knowledge... you know what I mean. SEGA has lots of other popular game franchises, it is not just Sonic as people who do not pay attention think (Condemned, Yakuza, Monkey Ball, Total war, Football Manager, and so on; all do million + sales).

[Wombatwarlord777]

Kogen wrote:
Sonic Team designers think each new game needs a new character/gimmick (Silver/Chucking shite, Werehog/Punching shite) and are too stupid to realise what their fanbase wants.

The Genesis games are excellent in comparison to the gameplay and the depth that we get with today's Sonic titles. But I think at least part of the problem is that the Sonic fanbase has undergone several demographic shifts through the years, meaning that the people who remember/appreciate the games of yesteryear are in the monority. Nowadays, Sega's target audience are the kids who picked up Sonic Adventure 2: Battle, who are acostumed to having all these silly extra gameplay modes like emerald-finding, shooting, telekinesis, whatever. If somebody were to create a new Sonic game solely with the excellent platforming and momentum gameplay from the Genesis era, it might generate enough demand from the younger majority to keep making games like that. THEN they can finally bask in the glory of quality Sonic gameplay.

The director of Unleashed thinks the Advance games are better than the Genesis games and would remake them instead of the games everyone wants, for example. He even said he could do a Sonic 4 with their new engine, but implied he does not really want to.

What do you expect? The Sonic-Rush'esque Unleashed is his baby, and he's probably extremely proud of it, if only to preserve his ego. Even if he did think the Genesis games were better than his, he'd never ever admit it. But yeah, it's a jerk comment on his part nonetheless.

[Kogen]

If they liked SA2 so much, then why did Unleashed remove all the stuff in that? Like it never even had Shadow, that is a big change. I think there is a significant difference between the Japanese teams and Iizuka's old teams. Kids are also stupid, they will buy anything. Slap Sonic on the cover and their parents will buy it for them.

And just to show what games are actually the really popular ones:

Sonic Heroes: 5.5 million
Mario and Sonic: 11 million
Mega Collection (+): 5 million
Sonic Adventure (DX):: 3.5 million

Other games still sell in the millions, of course, even the rereleases of emulations and so on. But this is the biggest selling stuff in the last 10 years - the rest, as far as I know, did not break 3 million (ignoring PC, second-hand sales, et cetera. Obviously these games are more popular than they appear).

[Ngangbius]

Those numbers kind of seem dubious though. M&S didn't reach 11 million yet and I doubt that Sonic Heroes sold that much.

That said it does seem like the games are not as big money makers than there were several years ago(cross-overs are the exception). I don't remember Sonic 2K6 and Sonic Unleashed lighting up the charts(at least in the U.S.) and if they did it possibly it was because it was discounted to a budget price.

I remember the producer or director of Sonic Unleashed saying that they wanted to make an Ultimate Sonic game instead of a Classic one. That statement ticked me off because their idea of an "ultimate sonic game" consists of unwanted gimmicks, pointless collect-a-thons, unnecessary hub worlds, awful mechanics, and consorting a FAQ on where to go next. In other words, just make it a bloated mess as they can.

[Wombatwarlord777]

Ngangbius wrote:
...unnecessary hub worlds...

The adventure fields in SA1 were endearing, probably in part because you never had to spend too much time in them to progress to the next stage (with the exception of finding those two damn echidna keys to unlock Knuckles's Lost World). With the exception of that, I agree entirely with your previous post.

[Crazy Penguin]

It was a strange design revamp. Not very much was changed, but a whole lot was certainly lost.

[Wombatwarlord777]

It's been mentioned on this thread before, but the changing head-to-body ratio of the post SA Tails just killed his cuteness, which was his defining feature. Cream can't hold a candle to the Old Tails as far as simultaneous coolness and cuteness goes.

[FlashTHD]

and are too stupid to realise what their fanbase wants. (...) That is how out of touch they are with the fan base and the series.

Which ones? The ones that speak english? The ones you like the most? The ones that bitch the loudest on the internet? You'll have to specify because this is not (thankfully) a hive mind of fans bitter about something. And most of us probably better off left unheard. Learn more here.

(despite some things suggested there, I don't agree with the sentiment that extraneous mission goals are the fault of new fans weaned on it. also I got a big laugh out of how sonic retro is all but named on page 3)

And where, praytell, are you getting this business about Hashimoto wanting to do Advance remakes? You'd do better for yourself in these discussions if you quit assuming we know half of all the facts you think are the truth and throw around as such.

(with the exception of finding those two damn echidna keys to unlock Knuckles's Lost World)

I had no trouble with that. The little nook where you find the other one is right on the quickest route to the temple...tough to miss, really.

[FlashTHD]

(with the exception of finding those two damn echidna keys to unlock Knuckles's Lost World)

I had no trouble with that. The little nook where you find the other one is right on the quickest route to the temple...tough to miss, really.

:­( I just owned myself didn't I. Rephrased:

You'd do better for yourself in these discussions if you excercised some restraint in throwing these surprise "facts" around willy-nilly.

Do a little research too. Oh, they didn't want to make anymore Sonics but revived the Sonic Team name for the studio when they hooked up again in Japan? What?