Sonic Unleashed?

Recent happenings of pertinence to Sonic fans.
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Frieza2000
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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Frieza2000 »

So Unleashed=Rivals-the rival+Secret Rings-the lame controls+Rush+2k6 town stages+werewolf?

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Segaholic2 »

Frieza2000 wrote:So Unleashed=Rivals-the rival+Secret Rings-the lame controls+Rush+2k6 town stages+werewolf?
When you put it like that it sounds truly horrific.

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Post by Locit »

Isuka wrote:Or perhaps you can only stop for a brief period of time. Standing still for too long would kind of go against the Ring Energy gauge thing to keep moving fast, wouldn't it?
Sonic Rush let you stop, and it basically had the same thing going on.

Also, what Holic said. Again. They really don't get it. But maybe this time, without Iizuka, they'll realize they don't get it. I wonder, though, if the alternate playable character is actually just Were-Sonic. I'm not holding my breath, but it'd be nice.

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Post by FlashTHD »

Locit wrote:But maybe this time, without Iizuka, they'll realize they don't get it.
They (more or less) did without him for Sonic 06 and...well.

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Post by Black Rook »

I think that they already know that they don't get it. They don't want to openly admit it, but I do think they know.

Problem is, that's only step one. Step two is to actually get it. Right now, it seems they're going through a maze. They know that a great Sonic game is at the end, and they've started to realize that some paths just lead to dead ends, but they still have no idea which path leads to the end. They're going to hit a few more dead ends before they get this.

Assuming they ever do. They seem to be going about this entirely by trial and error, when all they really have to do is PEEK OVER THE FUCKING WALL to see the end of the maze.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Opa-Opa »

I don't know if it'll be that easy, actually. Nowadays people want so much more of a game. They want story, they want innovation, they want multiple characters, gameplay gimmicks, etc etc. Also, there's been this large focus on Sonic's speed, which makes sense because that's the whole point of the character, but in the end it isn't that what makes it fun, it's the jumping, killing enemies, popping computers, special zones, secret areas, etc etc. I've been thinking now and I don't think Rush and Rush Adventure even HAS secret areas, like, going through a wall or something like that that we did since Sonic 1.

It has changed so much over the years that to go back would be like accepting that everything they've been doing the last 6 or 7 years has been a huge mistake. Nobody likes to do that. Especially when people keep saying that your last best games weren't made by you, but it's true. I think the last 2d Sonic game that really got me going was the first Sonic Advance. Rush was fun and all, but I really liked playing Advance over and over again.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Shadow Hog »

Same - the first Sonic Advance was easily the best post-S3&K 2D game we've gotten. I wasn't all that impressed with Pocket Adventure (but I should really give it another go someday), and as of Advance 2 the series basically devolved into Hold Right and Run into Spikes: the Game, removing pretty much any platforming the game used to have. And then they developed the push-a-button-and-go-blazing-fast system, which completely nixed the Spin Dash, too, and made it more like Hold Right and the Rush Button to Run into Spikes: the Sequel (although, admittedly, Rush was better about running into obstacles than Advance 2 was).

It's like they're systematically removing everything that made the game series so good to begin with, and replacing it with feeble attempts to make the game faster - removing any semblance of actual gameplay in the process (barring, perhaps, the boss battles). What's worse is that the gaming press is supporting this...

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Post by Isuka »

The gaming press and the entire Sonic fandom at large don't know shit about what they really want or don't want in a Sonic game, which is comically tragic... or tragically comic. Whatever.
Last edited by Isuka on Tue May 20, 2008 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Rob-Bert »

...and then there are those of us who can clearly define what they want from a Sonic game, in some way. Me, I'd rather have the "ball rolling down a hill" momentum somehow brought into 3D, since they managed to fuck up the "jump through the air and perform fancy tricks" momentum from every angle so far.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

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Opa-Opa wrote:It has changed so much over the years that to go back would be like accepting that everything they've been doing the last 6 or 7 years has been a huge mistake. Nobody likes to do that.
Haven't they already accepted that, with each declaration that the series is "going back to its roots"? It seems like they've already admitted that the new games have their flaws, and just need to follow through on actually fixing them.

Which makes me think that most of the people working on the games now have no idea what made the original ones so special in the first place. And with that said, does ANYBODY really have any idea what made them so special? A handful of us can discuss those qualities on a message board, but we don't really speak for the fans, the gaming press, or anybody else. It's like Isuka said, nobody really knows what they want in a Sonic game. Most people can tell a good Sonic game from a bad one, but they don't really know why one's good and one's bad, which creates the problem we have now.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by BlazeHedgehog »

I think a lot of people know what they want in a Sonic game. It's just thanks to Sega and the hojillion different interpretations of Sonic over the years, everybody wants something completely different and nobody can ever agree on what the perfect Sonic game would be.

We've got fans of the old games, fans of the new games, fans of AoStH, fans of SatAM, fans of Sonic Underground, fans of Sonic X, fans of the Sonic OVA, fans of the old Archie comics, fans of the new Archie comics, fans of the Sonic X Archie comics, fans of the UK Fleet Way comics, people who still wish he was called "Dr. Robotnik", people who prefer Eggman... and just about everything inbetween.

Different fans like different parts of different games. Due to how Sonic was merchandised and presented over the years, there is absolutely no way Sega can do a Sonic game "the right way", because there isn't a right way anymore. It's all a jumbled mess of concepts and ideas and character designs for a community that will never decide on what they all want collectively.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Rob-Bert »

When you put it that way, it sure explains the sexual deviants that this fanbase its known for. Incidentally, are they any other franchises that have been put into this kind of situation, where there's no conceivable way to please everyone?

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Frieza2000 »

BlazeHedgehog wrote:We've got fans of the old games, fans of the new games, fans of AoStH, fans of SatAM, fans of Sonic Underground, fans of Sonic X, fans of the Sonic OVA, fans of the old Archie comics, fans of the new Archie comics, fans of the Sonic X Archie comics, fans of the UK Fleet Way comics, people who still wish he was called "Dr. Robotnik", people who prefer Eggman... and just about everything inbetween.
And that's just in terms of story. In the gameplay department you've got your speed freaks, your time attackers, rank busters, platform junkies, explorers, gun nuts, 2d purists, 3d revolutionaries, and probably even some people wishing for more RPG elements. And then there's the people whose purchase of the game is entirely dependent on whether or not Tails is in it. I'm sure Sega's realized that they can never please everyone. They're just trying to please as many as they can. Or totally ignoring everyone. Werewolf kinda makes you wonder.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by RocketPunch »

I definitely agree that there are too many subdivisions of Sonic fans to truly please them all with one game. But even then there are still games in the Sonic catalog that are almost universally recognized as "excellent." The gaming press and most fans that are old enough to remember Sonic 3 & Knuckles, or Sonic CD even, often acknowledge them as the series' high points. The problem is that Sega hasn't applied the gameplay elements that made those games work to any of the recent ones to a large degree.

I'm not saying that's the one, sure-fire way to make a Sonic game that everyone would love, but it would at least be a start to producing a quality title. Well, moreso than adding a werewolf factor at least.

And for the record, I'm not judging this game yet. My main point is that Sega tries too hard to go in new directions with Sonic, as opposed to just (dare I say it) going "back to its roots" and focusing on what it did right in the past.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by The Iron Giant »

Rob-Bert wrote:Incidentally, are they any other franchises that have been put into this kind of situation, where there's no conceivable way to please everyone?

Four words: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. That fanbase is far more divided than Sonic's.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Locit »

Banjo Kazooie has people pretty divided right now. EGM Live had about 20 minutes of Garnett Lee sputtering in outrage about how stupid the whole vehicle idea is.

I think it's neat!

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by FlashTHD »

RocketPunch wrote:The gaming press and most fans that are old enough to remember Sonic 3 & Knuckles, or Sonic CD even, often acknowledge them as the series' high points.
In regard to the press, I see that they're quite loving of Sonic 2 but (by instinct I s'pose) tend to leave 3&K out in the cold.
The problem is that Sega hasn't applied the gameplay elements that made those games work to any of the recent ones to a large degree.

I'm not saying that's the one, sure-fire way to make a Sonic game that everyone would love, but it would at least be a start to producing a quality title. Well, moreso than adding a werewolf factor at least.

And for the record, I'm not judging this game yet. My main point is that Sega tries too hard to go in new directions with Sonic, as opposed to just (dare I say it) going "back to its roots" and focusing on what it did right in the past.
Culminating here, almost this whole discussion now rocks. We all prolly know it, but they haven't applied much decent common sense in their decisions either.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Zeta »

Incidentally, are they any other franchises that have been put into this kind of situation, where there's no conceivable way to please everyone?
Transformers suddenly leaps to mind. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... bleFanbase Plus all of those.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

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BlazeHedgehog wrote:fans of Sonic Underground
I do not believe it!

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Post by Isuka »

I don't think Miyamoto develops every Super Mario game targeting at The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! fans, really.

I like to believe that, lacking a developer that's definite to the series' identity, the Sonic series just goes about aimlessly introducing some new and most probably nonsensical feature that strafes away from the core formula introduced by Yasuhara, Naka, and Ohshima to promote the particular game so people says "hey, that's new and refreshing!" and gives it a try until the word of mouth about its inherent suckiness sets foot.
And the cycle repeats itself.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Neo »

Rob-Bert wrote:Incidentally, are they any other franchises that have been put into this kind of situation, where there's no conceivable way to please everyone?
Of course there are. Take Zelda, for instance. When Wind Waker came out, everybody complained it didn't look serious enough, was too short and had too many sidequests, and basically wasn't Ocarina of Time. So what Nintendo do is make a much longer (about twice the size) game, with about half of the sidequests available and with a much darker tone -- not to mention that most of the storylne plays exactly the same as Ocarina. Of course then the fans bitched that the game was unoriginal, was too "stretched out" and didn't have enough sidequests.

I guess this is pretty much the reason why Nintendo releases games with alternating fashions nowadays. One is the longer, story-based game, the other is the shorter game with a greater emphasis on sidequesting. (Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess/Wind Waker, etc.)
RocketPunch wrote:The gaming press and most fans that are old enough to remember Sonic 3 & Knuckles, or Sonic CD even, often acknowledge them as the series' high points.
Sorry to break it to you, but you have a pretty narrow sense of people's opinions around you. There are actually large amounts of people who say the Genesis games are too slow, and that the new games (Advance series, Rush and so on) are the way to go. You wouldn't believe the amount of pure hatred I find for Sonic 1 -- more often than not simply because the spin dash didn't exist yet. Then again, those are likely the same idiots who can't get through the freaking loop-de-loops.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by gr4yJ4Y »

I think all three of the classic 2D Genesis games have their own good and bad points:
  • Sonic 1 - Slower, more calaculated platforming and a simple story about man's mistreatment of the environment.

    Sonic 2 - The best level design of the series. If you disagree, go back and play through Sonic 2 and S3&K to compare. Sonic 2 is slightly better.

    Sonic 3&K - Best replayability (multiple routes with multiple characters, slight differences when playing only Sonic 3 or only Sonic & Knuckles), longest game, special abilities to each character, and the most bosses (which were good).
I didn't really like Sonic CD very much due to its fragmented platforming, but the artwork is still really nice.


With all the different fan-bases to appease it's no wonder there are individuals leading projects focusing on their own creative ideas (e.g. guns and werewolves). I don't think any idea is necessarily bad on its own, but the Sonic games' execution just isn't what it used to be. Even if a bad idea like Shadow the Hedgehog was given the love in care in its creation it could had been comparable with the likes of Ratchet & Clank.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Radrappy »

Aren't the Ratchet & Clank games on the whole, mostly forgettable?

Regardless. As much as I hate to admit it, yes I'm sure with enough love, thought, and money put into it Shadow might have been a decent game. But couldn't you say that about damn near everything?

And to contribute to the discussion, the best way to deal with split fanbases is to ignore them completely. Implementing Fan suggestions is probably the worst thing that can happen to a franchise (For a great example of this, Journey of Dreams!). Creators need to make decisions and overcome challenges themselves. We're paying for their vision, not what fans think is best. And if they mess it up completely, that's the way it goes. The more people that contribute to a project, the more dilluted/generic it will become. For a great example of this, watch any Pixar movie sans The Incredibles. Want to make a difference? Get into the industry. I know a lot of people think they've got it all figured when it comes to what needs to be done to to save the Sonic franchise but what's the point if they're only going to speculate about it. Putting these suggestions to work is something entirely different. Posting on some internet forum about it isn't going to help anyone.





o wait.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by RocketPunch »

Isuka wrote:the Sonic series just goes about aimlessly introducing some new and most probably nonsensical feature that strafes away from the core formula introduced by Yasuhara, Naka, and Ohshima to promote the particular game so people says "hey, that's new and refreshing!" and gives it a try until the word of mouth about its inherent suckiness sets foot.
Agreed. This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.
Neo wrote:Sorry to break it to you, but you have a pretty narrow sense of people's opinions around you. There are actually large amounts of people who say the Genesis games are too slow, and that the new games (Advance series, Rush and so on) are the way to go. You wouldn't believe the amount of pure hatred I find for Sonic 1 -- more often than not simply because the spin dash didn't exist yet. Then again, those are likely the same idiots who can't get through the freaking loop-de-loops.
I have no doubt that some fans believe this, and even in large amounts, but do you think that sector of the fan base is larger than the one that puts the classic games on a pedestal? It's practically common knowledge, even outside of the fandom, that Sonic games have gone downhill since their transition to 3-D. I'm not saying that just because it's my personal opinion, but because it's pretty much everywhere. There's even a videogames trope page dedicated to it, I believe.

In regards to this topic, I don't mean to single out any particular classic game (Sonic 1, S3&K, etc.), I'm just talking about the classic gameplay in general. It's like Isuka said, the developers deviate from a formula that's known to work and be successful, in order to try out new, random gameplay devices like this werewolf component we're looking at now. It's just counterproductive, no matter how you look at it.

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Re: Sonic Unleashed?

Post by Yami CJMErl »

Zeta wrote:
Incidentally, are they any other franchises that have been put into this kind of situation, where there's no conceivable way to please everyone?
Transformers suddenly leaps to mind.
I concur. You should have SEEN all the bitching people did when it was revealed that 2007 Movie Optimus Prime was--gasp!--NOT an obsolete model of semi truck painted entirely red.

(coincidentally, I now have a strong hatred for the word "Bayformers".)

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