What can save the Sonic series?

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:16 pm

After the Advance series and the abombination (regardless of sales) that was Sonic Heroes, what do you think would bring the Sonic series out of the proverbial gutter and bring him back to stardom?

For instance, I think that bringing on more 3D versions of old Sonic game levels. Hell, add a third-dimension to an entire game! You have any idea how much a fully-3D version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles would be drooled over by fans? For the Special Stages, they can just refine the graphics a little bit. Hell, why stop there? Make time limits optional, allow for exploration.

'Course, that's just my opinion.

Post by **Pepperidge** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:29 pm

Honestly, I think all they can do is go back to the drawing board and not half-ass it next time.

Although all the fanboy in me really wants is a revamped port of Sonic 3 & Knuckles for GBA or the DS and SOME sort of rerelease for Sonic CD.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:46 pm

A looooong hiatus. Like, 5 or 6 years, at least. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen, so my next suggestion would be to strip Iizuka of his creative power. I don't know what the status of Sonic Team USA is since the merger, but I like to believe that's already happened.

Blue Gale · Post by **Blue Gale** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:48 pm

Go back to 2D. Totally. If they want 3D, they can put it in the special stages. I want some GuiltyGear X-quality sprites that move lightning fast and lots of weird techno j-pop music.

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:04 pm

They were supposed to take a break after Sonic 3, right?

Light Speed · Post by **Light Speed** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:19 pm

Why stop at the 3rd dimension? They should make this a 4th dimensional game. You could alter time and space as you run through the game using the unlimited power of the emeralds. Oh wait...

Maybe they should just suck less. I think the problem is they are complicating Sonic, the game concept isn't that hard to make good. Yet they add all this crappy stuff.

Nash · Post by **Nash** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:33 pm

Go back to basic...I think almost everyone is tired of all the Chao and 10 diffrent characters stuff. Let it just be Sonic, Tails and Knuckles (Metal Sonic as a unlockable cause it should allways be atleast some unlockables) do the kind of levels Sonic 3& Knuckles had, though in 3D and not total rip offs..forests, plants, musical zones and space. Make it more simple, not all this fancy cake frosting around it.

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:34 pm

I still agree with GG!'s idea of having them take a break. I mean, people are begging like crack whores for ports/sequels for NiGHTS (and that mini-game in PSO I&II doesn't count), Burning Rangers perhaps, Sonic R...I know I am.

Just giving Sonic and the gang a nice, long vacation would allow them time to do that. They wouldn't have to spend all their money on merchandise like chocolate and yo-yos and the seemingly 75,000 conventions they have a year.

Blue Gale · Post by **Blue Gale** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:46 pm

You know what...screw Sonic. Give him a nice, long vacation. What I really want is for them to hurry the hell up with Phantasy Star Universe.

I demand details!

-wyvern · Post by **-wyvern** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:11 pm

Let it just be Sonic, Tails and Knuckles (Metal Sonic as a unlockable cause it should allways be atleast some unlockables)

Agreed, although replace metal sonic with super sonic - that's what super sonic was originally for; a reward for finding all the emeralds.

Incidentally, what was the design decisions that lead to the inclusion of Cream the rabbit? This will probably sound horrible, but as a character I hate her. She's supposed to be a wimp but she peversely has the highest attack power of any character and can fly exactly like tails. What incredible creativity. I was hoping she would be an original concept (like knuckles' glide/climbing or amy's inability to kaiten), say instead of flight she would spin rapidly in the air with her ears flapping out to give a kind of delayed decent, and her feet splatting enemies she landed on vertically like a drill. Instead, she is the "begginer character" with overpowered everything, and she's just not that fun to play because of it. I was under the impression that tails was the beginner character, but he was still fun for advanced players because of his ability to fly opened up new ways to get around a level. Cream was unnecessary. Oh, and her voice is annoying, but that's nothing new.

...Sorry. But it's stuff like her that is making modern sonic games bad, and sonic deserves better.

Nash · Post by **Nash** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:20 pm

-wyvern wrote:
Let it just be Sonic, Tails and Knuckles (Metal Sonic as a unlockable cause it should allways be atleast some unlockables)
Agreed, although replace metal sonic with super sonic - that's what super sonic was originally for; a reward for finding all the emeralds.

I see Super Sonic as Sonic...well I guess your right. But I think Metal Sonic would kinda be fun to play with.

-wyvern wrote: -large text why Cream is bad-

Yes I can agree on you that Cream is a bad chracter, worst then Big in my opinion. She is an little 6-year old to match the player that would chose her. She was ridiclous easy to play with because most kids that buy Sonic games can't make it past the second act.

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:29 pm

Running pretty much in the face of what everyone else has said, but what I'd quite like to see is a proper Tails-related game. Not some silly adventure with evil witches in minecarts (honestly, how improbable a plotline was that?) or strange chicken things, but with the Doc as the main villain. Tails and the Doc developed a good little mechanical rivalry in the two Sonic Adventures, and it was a shame to see this go to waste in Heroes, so it would pretty cool to have the two great brains of the Sonic series facing each other off.

The basic plot intro would be this: The Doc has finally got around to inventing hedgehog-proof armour. With his ability to break open badniks with his spikes nullified, Sonic is powerless to prevent the Doc's latest evil scheme, (insert random evil scheme here).

Well, now. It may be hedgehog-proof, but laser/missile/whatever proof it ain't. Tails' task is to stop the doc's plans, by devising more and more powerful devices and putting them into action to recover the Chaos Emeralds. The more Emeralds Tails has, the more powerful the gadgets he can invent become - but of course, the harder the levels get.

It would be an intriguing combination of a puzzle game, as you find the necessary blueprints and parts to build various devices (such as an Emerald Locator, or more powerful armour and weapons, or even newer versions of the Tornado/Cyclone), and a shooter, as you deal with whatever badniks you come across in traditional E-102/Tails/Dr. Robotnik style. Course, the hard part would be not alienating either the puzzler/shoot-em-up community by not striking the right balance, but I'm sure it could be done.

Certainly the idea of a fairly solid "Sonic Universe" game that doesn't have Sonic as the main character sounds pretty good to me.

Nash · Post by **Nash** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:38 pm

PRV wrote:Course, the hard part would be not alienating either the puzzler/shoot-em-up community by not striking the right balance, but I'm sure it could be done.

Ever heard of Ratchen and Clank?...or Jak(and Daxter) for that matter?

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:40 pm

I desperately want to like Sonic Heroes. I really want to give it another chance. I'm going to play it right now. Maybe if I try hard enough I can make myself like it or make it good. Or something.

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:41 pm

Nash wrote:
PRV wrote:Course, the hard part would be not alienating either the puzzler/shoot-em-up community by not striking the right balance, but I'm sure it could be done.
Ever heard of Ratchen and Clank?...or Jak(and Daxter) for that matter?

Point. So it probably could be done then.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:41 pm

chriscaffee wrote:I desperately want to like Sonic Heroes. I really want to give it another chance. I'm going to play it right now. Maybe if I try hard enough I can make myself like it or make it good. Or something.

If you try hard enough, you can also fly or grow a tail or something. Probably.

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:46 pm

The tail is more likely as you at least have some headway with those vestigal verabrate that extend beyond the pelvis.

Edit: I tried. I played through a couple levels. It still sucks.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:32 pm

They were supposed to take a break after Sonic 3, right?

Yeah, I remember that. After the completion of S&K, their plan was to wait 5 years before starting the next Sonic game.

Post by **Popcorn** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:42 pm

Unlike a lot of you other bastards, I'm not particularly interested in a 3D Sonic and Knuckles or a new 2D title. I think Sonic works very well in 3D-- it just hasn't been refined as well as it should have been.

As far as I'm concerned, making a Sonic game shouldn't be too difficult. I mean, the basic formula was laid out perfectly in 1991... it seems to me that the farther the games have strayed from that formula, the worse they've gotten. Complexity is completely out of place in the series: one button is the way to go. We need a stripped-down, focused game with good level design, good visuals, and a tangible sense of speed and style (the very factors that made the original game appealing in the first place).

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:46 pm

Mission: Abandoned.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:14 pm

They should just stop coming up with "new styles of gameplay."

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:35 pm

The mindset that the Sonic formula only works in 2D misses the point on so many fundamental levels it's laughable. The perspective is not the root of the problem, one only need look as far as the Sonic Advance games to see that.

On the other hand, I don't think the "one button" rule could work in 3D. That one button is great for maneuvering through space, but when he's in the third dimension, Sonic needs another way to actually interact with the environment. The all-purpose "action" button of the original Sonic Adventure was definitely the right idea, although it wasn't used properly. I'm thinking along the lines of something where you could, say, spring off a ramp with the jump button, then use the action button in mid-air to grab onto maybe some kind of bar for altering your trajectory. Or to latch firmly (and surely) onto a grind rail. Something very similar to the "sneak" button in Sly Cooper. It would still be simple and intuitive, but would open the door for a whole new dynamic.

One way or the other, Sonic still needs a break. Utter the name now and not too many people will so much as turn their heads in interest, but 5 or 6 years down the road maybe the wounds will have healed enough to pique curiosity.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:39 pm

Why stop at the 3rd dimension? They should make this a 4th dimensional game. You could alter time and space as you run through the game using the unlimited power of the emeralds. Oh wait...

Sonic CD?

Maybe they should just suck less. I think the problem is they are complicating Sonic, the game concept isn't that hard to make good. Yet they add all this crappy stuff.

What was the last really streamlined game you ever played? Not including KD - because that's an abberation in today's gaming industry.

I think most developers believe they OWE their fans lots of features, buzzing whistles, extras, and many many playable characters - because that's what fanboys on messageboards are always complaining about.

And I'm fine with that concept - but not when it gets in the WAY of the true game.

Go back to basic...I think almost everyone is tired of all the Chao and 10 diffrent characters stuff. Let it just be Sonic, Tails and Knuckles (Metal Sonic as a unlockable cause it should allways be atleast some unlockables) do the kind of levels Sonic 3& Knuckles had, though in 3D and not total rip offs..forests, plants, musical zones and space. Make it more simple, not all this fancy cake frosting around it.

I do think that's the best bet, at this point. Seeing as how it looks like they won't be taking a break from whoring out Sonic OR Puyo Puyo.

Bad stuff about Cream

Because Tails is too complicated. Nowadays, they're shooting for a MUCH younger audience then they were in Sonic 2 or 3 - which was like for 7 year olds at the least.

Now they want Sonic fans to start while they're in diapers, and to placiate their undeveloped minds - Cream.

I desperately want to like Sonic Heroes. I really want to give it another chance. I'm going to play it right now. Maybe if I try hard enough I can make myself like it or make it good. Or something.

And maybe if I force myself to have sex with a woman, it'll make me straight! Don't go against your natural urges, man. That way lies madness.

As far as I'm concerned, making a Sonic game shouldn't be too difficult. I mean, the basic formula was laid out perfectly in 1991... it seems to me that the farther the games have strayed from that formula, the worse they've gotten. Complexity is completely out of place in the series: one button is the way to go. We need a stripped-down, focused game with good level design, good visuals, and a tangible sense of speed and style (the very factors that made the original game appealing in the first place).

Me and Popcorn actually almost agree on something. Freaky. But yeah - while I think ONE button would be a step backwards (Sonic Adventure 2's fucking action button that constantly changed what it did, anyone) it's something for the developers to aspire to. I think two would be more practical, and three would be the maximum.

That being said, I think there are two things making Sonic games crappy:

* Overcomplication - We don't need 12 characters. 3 is FINE. 4 if you want Amy, 5 if you want Cream for the toddlers who can barely uncross their eyes. That way, we have five basic gameplay styles that's easy for anyone to recognize. Cream for the widdle babies who can't even use the bathroom, Tails for the older but less experienced gamers, classic Sonic, Knuckles for people who like to take it slow explore and fight, and Amy for players who want a big challenge. There. Done. No more Big, Rouge, Shadow, or whoever.

You could even try limiting it to Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles. But this recent generation of Sonic player has been so spoiled with extra characters, people would bitch for sure.

* Lack of Well-Implemented Gameplay Ideas - All of this extra gameplay crap is taking too much time from classic high-speed exploration and platforming. Treasure hunt is OK - because that's what most people did while playing as Knuckles in S3K and S2 anyways. Shooting was assinine. Leave that crap for Megaman. Survival (Amy) was a nice idea, but it was poorly executed. Fishing was crack-induced.

And while Team Play could be fairly interesting at times, more often, it was overcomplicated and forced the game to slow down to a ridiculous crawl. ESPECIALLY when your teamates got fucking knocked out or fell off the screen and you had to wait for them to respawn. That was the most MORONIC and stupid aspect of Sonic Heroes. PERIOD.

I'm not saying that Sonic needs to be basic to work. I'm saying that if you're going to complicate things, you better make DAMN sure that the complications are as streamlined and well-tweaked as possible.

* Poor Level Design - This is my big complaint. While some recent Zones have been a blast to play (City Escape, Final Rush, Radical Highway) most are just AWFUL. Either they're uninteresting like Hero's Jungle stages, or they're too complicated like Hang Castle or Bingo Highway.

Obstacles should be FUN as well as CHALLENGING. They should not be incredibly boring (those damn frogs) or incredibly frustrating (Everything about the castle stages, those fucking Tails switches).

Oh, and get some original thoughts into your fucking designs. Putting a gigantic pit around the whole stage does not make things more interesting or hard. It makes the game look ugly and unhinged for one. For another, it doesn't add anything, and shows that you're creatively bankrupt when it comes to making an intersting place to play in.

In short - trim the WORST of the fat from the character line-up (Make Shadow and Rouge villains again, damit), polish anymore new ideas till they shine like the fucking sun, and most importantly - come up with some stages that are fun to explore and challenging to play in. Let the player feel like he's in a fluid, natural world. Not a Goddamn artificial race-way suspended 5 atmospheres into space.

Post by **Popcorn** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:59 pm

I didn't mean the one-button thing exactly like that-- it was as an example of the kind of design ethos the series used to (and should still) have. I agree with everything that GG! said.

CE · Post by CE » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:55 pm

Zeta wrote:What was the last really streamlined game you ever played? Not including KD - because that's an abberation in today's gaming industry.

That would be Astro Boy for the GBA.
Before that, Pac Man VS.
Before that, Ikaruga.
Before that, all my Dreamcast faves, including, but not limited to, Bangai-O, ChuChu Rocket!, Crazy Taxi, Samba de Amigo, Typing of the Dead.

Notice that over one third of the games are Treasure games?