Sonic Critique

[Opa-Opa]

I recently stumbled upon this guy's analysis about the design of Sonic games. Even though he seems like a pretty rational guy, I believe he is wrong about a lot of things, like the usual idea that Sonic is about the experience of zooming through a stage nonstop. It's cut in 4 parts and I believe parts 3 and 4 are actually very good. The fourth one details an ideal next-gen Sonic game and I think I actually agree with him in lots of his points.

I began to talk to him about the things I think he's wrong in parts 1 and 2 of his article, feel free to read on the comments.

http://critical-gaming.squarespace.com/ ... d-pt1.html
http://critical-gaming.squarespace.com/ ... d-pt2.html
http://critical-gaming.squarespace.com/ ... d-pt3.html
http://critical-gaming.squarespace.com/ ... d-pt4.html

[gr4yJ4Y]

He has a very good breakdown of the Rush games in part 2.

Certain level elements in Sonic Rush Adventure are designed give the player a short break from the fast action even when RUSHing entirely through a level.

This is probably the purpose of the in-level "cutscenes" in the 3D games. But it could also explain why in the older 2D games...

the player is stopped frequently and slowed to a crawl progressing through gameplay ideas that aren't very interesting.

He just breezes over this part, never going into detail what gameplay ideas aren't interesting. He hints that there needs to be more motivation for Sonic later on (such as getting to a bridge in time), but I don't think the series is in need of a boost in story elements.

I didn't agree with his view on the Genesis games' level design. I don't think there needs to be "a governing simplicity" to level design. Reading between the lines, it's like he's saying the level design needs to follow a set of principles that follow all the levels throughout the game. One of the things that I've always liked about these games are the variety their levels have. While the high-route/low-route thing works for the Rush games, the 2D games are more about exploration.

I do agree with him that Sonic 1's level design is better than 3&K's, but I don't think he has the right reasoning.

The bosses in Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure are designed using 3D graphics where players interact on a 2D plane. Instead of forcing the player to interpret when the boss can or can't be hurt/interacted with, the bosses are designed to create this distinction using 3D space and 3D hitboxes. In other words, when the boss's 3D body intersects with Sonic's 2D plane it can be interacted with. When the boss pulls into the background, it's easy to see that it can't be touched. In this way, the 3D graphics provides a cleaner design.

I felt like there were a lot of times when it was hard to tell if the 3D bosses were being static or not. I don't know if it's that big of an improvement.

The final and best [camera] solution is simply making [the next Sonic game] a 3D game. The 3rd person camera is ideal for displaying a variable amount of a 3D level. Whether pulled back behind Sonic along the ground, up above looking down, or to the side creating a classic 2D side scrolling perspective, the flexibility is undeniable and essential. Mario Galaxy pioneered the tech and now Sonic must follow in Mario's footsteps. There is simply no other way to get around the limitations of the 2D Sonic presentation.

Oh boy... I think we've talked about why 2D works better for Sonic than 3D quite a bit already so I won't get into it.

I didn't really like his recommendation on changing the amount of control over "ball Sonic" in the air or having "man Sonic" be able to jump higher. I thought this was a cool idea though:

Sonic, being a hedgehog, has the incredible ability to expose his spines. This means he can be smooth like a ball, or dangerous like a pin cushion. Like in Sonic 3, in Sonic Beyond Sonic is able to quickly flare his spines. Doing so when coming into contact with an enemy creates an attack. Flexing Sonic's spines when colliding against a wall Sonic gives players the ability to tech or ukemi to stop in place instead of bouncing or rolling away.

[Zeta]

I really do like the idea of Sonic having 3 modes - bipedal, ball, and buzzsaw. I think it might be an idea that adds a lot to the character, making him as interesting to play as Tails or Knuckles with all their abilities are.

Bipedal Sonic (All Around):
* Higher but shorter Jump
* Greater traction.
* More vulnerable
* Slower top speed.

Ball Sonic (High Speed):
* Longer but lower jump.
* Less traction.
* Bounces off objects.
* High top speed.
* Difficult to control.
* Can bounce off the ground ala the Bubble Attack to gain greater height.

Buzzsaw Sonic (Attack, Defense, Precision):
* Highest traction.
* Can become invulnerable for short amounts of time.
* Can stick to walls to pause or wall-jump.
* Greatest attack range.
* Slow roll speed.

If you could implement a control system that could take advantage of three modes like that, I think it could breathe life into a new 2D Sonic game.

[Zeta]

To expand on the idea:

Control Pad:
Up: Look Up
Down: Crouch
Left: Walk/Run Left
Right: Walk/Run Right

Button 1 - Vertical Jump: Press this to cause Sonic to jump in a bipedal form. Sonic is vulnerable to attacks while jumping, but jumps a great distance straight up. Can hold while on the ground to extend the vertical distance Sonic jumps.


Button 2 - Spin Charge: A combination of the Spin Dash, Homing Attack, and Spin Jump moves. Sonic turns into ball form and rapidly propels himself in the direction he's facing. Can be used either mid-air as a horizontal double jump or attack, or on the ground to gain a bit of speed.

Button 3 - Curl: Press to transform Sonic into ball form, reducing his traction, but giving him higher speed, allowing him to bounce off surfaces like a toy ball, and doing damage to enemies. Press again to roll out of ball form.

Button 4 - Spines - A combination of his Invisi-Shield, Wall Jump, and a few other abilities. Spines pop out of a crouching Sonic, doubling his attack range from ball form and giving him a split second of invulnerability. If Sonic comes into contact with a wall or ceiling when extending his spines, he will stick onto the surface until he takes another action. Used on the ground, Sonic will roll for a very short distance before coming to a stop. Press the button again to retract the spines.

Now this could make for an interesting game. Imagine Sonic is on a platform with two bottomless pits and a wall on each side. He could use a charged Vertical Jump to get straight up, use the Spin Charge to propell himself into one of the walls, then use his Spines to stick into walls, and by repeating the quick combination of moves, make his way up the pit. He could use proper application of Ball form to rapidly dispatch a room full of enemies while using his spines to give him a more precise break and extend his attack range, etc. Quite inventive.

[Zeta]

While we're on the subject of dream Sonic mechanics, this is one I've wanted for a while:

People complain about Tails and Knuckles not being playable, or Sonic himself having a limited playstyle. Tails and Knuckles cause problems, as people here have noted, when playable, since they can do everything Sonic can do but better.

Turning that idea upside-down, is bringing back the shields from Sonic the Hedgehog 3, and expanding them into fullfledged transformations that change the way Sonic plays. So many platform games have used this, I think it would help a lot of the problems with the franchise.

Observe:

Fire Sonic

Looks sort of like the Werehog, but red and on fire. Makes Sonic invulnerable to fire attacks. Is lost when hit or touching water.

Button 1: Vertical jump. Press again while in mid-air to do a horizontal fireball dash attack.
Button 2: Grab. Works like a cross between Ristar and Knuckles. Extend's Sonic's arms, and yanks him towards what he grabs. Grabbing an enemy pulls him towards it and bounces him off it in an attack. Grabbing a wall lets him climb the wall like Knuckles.
Button 3: Fire Roll. Works as curl, except as a fireball.
Button 4: Fire Spines. Sonic huddles down and encases himself in a blazing aura that damages enemies that touch it.

Elec Sonic

Looks like Sonic mixed with Jet the Hawk, and Tails-like propellers growing off the top of his head. Draws rings to Sonic. Is lost when hit or touching water.


Button 1: Vertical jump. Press again while in mid-air to double jump.
Button 2: Flight. Works just like Tails' flight.
Button 3: Elec Roll. Works as curl, except as a ball of electricity
Button 4: Elec Spines. Sonic huddles down and encases himself in a electic aura that damages enemies that touch it.

Aqua Sonic

Looks like Sonic mixed with a shark. Allows Sonic to breathe underwater and swim using the D-pad. Is lost when hit.

Button 1: Vertical jump. Press again while in mid-air bounce down in a bubble.
Button 2: Bubble. Shoots out a bubble that encases any enemy it hits into a bubble, allowing Sonic to jump on them and use them as a platform.
Button 3: Bubble Roll Roll. Works as curl, except as a bubble.
Button 4: Ice Spines. Sonic huddles down and encases himself in an icy aura that damages enemies that touch it.

There would always be an optional secondary route for these transformations when they're gained. But there'd also be a path or two for regular Sonic, making them optional.

[K2J]

I like how the blogger just skimmed right over the biggest flaw in the SRA bosses - that their health bars are huge. Waaaay bigger than they need to be. It gets repetitive and boring, fast. Aside from that, he had some great points. As a fan of the series proper for a little under a decade, my perception of what a Sonic game "should be" might be a bit different than some of you guys here - which is why I found Rush and its sequel entertaining, albeit very short-lived. I liked the sequel enough to do this, at least.

As I anticipate this will turn into a "this is my dream Sonic game" thread, see my Sonic Retro post for my thoughts on the subject. It combines some classic elements (fewer characters, flowing playstyle, levels that gradually move from nature to technology a la Sonic 1's original stage order) with some of the ones I'm more familiar with (the hero/dark dichotomy, gaining permanent power-ups).

[Kogen]

I think Sonic games should go back to the classic gameplay and music style of Sonic Eraser, not this kiddy shite platformer thing.

[FlashTHD]

I like how the blogger just skimmed right over the biggest flaw in the SRA bosses - that their health bars are huge. Waaaay bigger than they need to be. It gets repetitive and boring, fast.

Except for the Whisker & Johnny battle where it's horribly unbalanced, no. I thought it worked fine and it beats the first one's more common "play the waiting game for obvious weak point to become available, hit it, repeat 7 times because it's, uhh, tradition". (SRA is guilty of the waiting game too, but not as frequently and it's less offensive)

For that matter, the Ghost Condor and Ghost Titan were both the most fun i've had with Sonic boss fights in recent memory.

[MiraiTails]

[ideas]

All very interesting ideas, Zeta. Unfortunately, I think you've but way more thought into the play mechanics of Sonic then anyone at Sega ever will.

[Kogen]

Zeta is always putting too much butt into everything.

[Delphine]

lol gay joke

[j-man]

Whoa, Zeta's gay?

[Malchik]

Whoa, Zeta's gay?

There's a little gay man insight each and everyone of us.

[gr4yJ4Y]

Whoa, Zeta's gay?

There's a little gay man insight each and everyone of us.

[Crazy Penguin]

One of the best things Sonic had going for it was the one button gameplay. Even in Sonic 3&K the new special moves (Tails' flying, Knuckles' gliding and Sonic's three element shields) were operated by a simple double-jump.

Most of the gameplay variety game from interactive obstacles - balloons, pulleys, spinning tops, swinging vines, cannons, mushroom parasols etc, which are also helped shape each stage's identity. Along the same line I also think that Sonic 2 and 3&K had the right idea by giving each Zone its own set of enemies.

Controlling Sonic should be kept as simple as possible, and the creativity should go into giving him diverse and interactive environments to run through.

[Crazy Penguin]

I like how the blogger just skimmed right over the biggest flaw in the SRA bosses - that their health bars are huge. Waaaay bigger than they need to be. It gets repetitive and boring, fast.

Except for the Whisker & Johnny battle where it's horribly unbalanced, no. I thought it worked fine and it beats the first one's more common "play the waiting game for obvious weak point to become available, hit it, repeat 7 times because it's, uhh, tradition". (SRA is guilty of the waiting game too, but not as frequently and it's less offensive)

For that matter, the Ghost Condor and Ghost Titan were both the most fun i've had with Sonic boss fights in recent memory.

I really enjoyed Sonic Rush Adventure's bosses, and it definitely has the best Super Sonic boss of the entire series.

Most of the bosses in Sonic 2 and 3&K kinda sucked. Even when they had the right idea it was just too easy to get lots of hits in at once. Sonic 1's seemed to be more challenging.

I appreciate what Sonic CD tried with its bosses. Sure the first boss was incredibly easy (isn't that the point?) but they all required unique solutions to attain victory. The only major flaw was the anti-climactic final battle - it would've been a fine boss anywhere else in the game, but not for the grand finale.

[K2J]

Except for the Whisker & Johnny battle where it's horribly unbalanced, no. I thought it worked fine and it beats the first one's more common "play the waiting game for obvious weak point to become available, hit it, repeat 7 times because it's, uhh, tradition". (SRA is guilty of the waiting game too, but not as frequently and it's less offensive)

For that matter, the Ghost Condor and Ghost Titan were both the most fun i've had with Sonic boss fights in recent memory.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly enjoyed the bosses of SRA (those two in particular, as well as the Egg Wizard, even with the changed gameplay mechanics). I just think it's odd that he was honest in the disadvantages of most of SRA's elements, but neglected how outright boring some of the battles could be. Maybe it's just Ghost Pendulum that's stuck in my mind. Not to say that Rush's bosses were any better (with the waiting game), but at least I didn't have to score 15ish hits on them.

[Kogen]

The Super Sonic boss fight in SRA involved switching to Blaze and shooting fireballs for 30 seconds until you win with barely any effort.

So Amazing !!!

[Dasher]

The only good and necessary Super Sonic battles were in S&K and maybe SA1 and SA2, everything else is an imitation and unnecessary and its getting old as hell. Sonic is turning to be like the Pokemon cartoon, the same shit in a different wrapping.

(not to mention the lizards, oh god.)

[gr4yJ4Y]

I thought that the Sonic Rush Super Sonic battle was a lot better than the SRA one... It was more like an homage to the S3&K Doomsday Zone.

[Kogen]

I thought that the Sonic Rush Super Sonic battle was a lot better than the SRA one... It was more like an homage to the S3&K Doomsday Zone.

It was the same boss as Sonic Advance 2.

Think of it as a homage to not having to do actual work.

[Crazy Penguin]

In most Super Sonic bosses the objective is to avoid obstacles and slam into the baddie whilst collecting rings along the way. Sonic Rush Adventure actually implemented attacks into the gameplay, which worked rather well.

[Zeta]

After reading the article, I have revised my thoughts on what would make a good control scheme/moveset for a 2D Sonic. It sold me on the Burst Dash, among other things:

A: Jump: Propels Sonic vertically into the air, uncurled.

Hold A: Spring Jump: Propels Sonic a great distance into the air, proportionate to the time button is held down.

A+A: Stomp: While in mid-air, Sonic will cancel his jump and stomp straight down below him, damaging enemies and allowing him to make precise jumps onto small platforms.

B: Homing Attack: When used, Sonic curls up into a ball, rises into the air, then dashes towards the opponent closest to him. Can be used to extend horizontal distance of jumps.

X: Needle Attack: Doubles Sonic's attack radius by extending his spines, and grants him a split second of invulnerability. If running or rolling on the ground, greatly reduces Sonic's speed, working as a break. Use in mid-air to damage enemies surrounded by barriers. Contact with wall or ceiling will lodge Sonic into the surface. Release to withdraw spines.

X + Left or Right: Needle Spin Attack: Allows Sonic to remain lodged into a surface and slowly roll along it, protecting himself on the ground, or allowing him to move across ceilings or roll up and down walls.

Y: Spin Attack: Causes Sonic to roll into a ball, damaging enemies or destroying obstacles. Press again to roll out of a ball.

Y + Down: Spin Dash: Sonic somersaults forward a small distance, damaging enemies and giving him a small boost of speed. Press while already using the Spin Attack to get a small boost of speed.

L: Burst Dash: Greatly increases speed allowing Sonic to plow through enemies, depletes rings while held down.

R: Chaos Control: Depletes rings to freeze everything on the screen but Sonic, allowing Sonic to damage enemies at leisure or navigate moving obstacles with ease.

*Sonic's Forms*
Spin Attack: Achieved by using the Homing Attack, Spin Attack, or Spin Dash. Sonic is curled into a ball, increasing his speed, reducing his traction, gains momentum quicker, and can damage enemies and fit through small spaces. Exit by pushing the Spin Attack Button.

Running: Sonic's default mode. All around good traction and good speed, but cannot deal damage and is vulnerable to enemies.

Needle Attack: Achieved by using the Needle Attack. Sonic has low speed, great traction, and can cling and roll across ceilings and walls. Exit by releasing the Needle Attack button.

[Crazy Penguin]

Sonic as Samus Aran?

[Zeta]

Pretty much, yes.

Basically, it's a set of moves that allows Sonic to rapidly switch forms to deal with either high speed action or tricky platforming.

Instead of having to hit a wall or clumsily wrestle with the control stick to slow down, you can you Needle Attack to get a more precise break. Needle Spin Attack also opens up a number of possible clever and fun platforming sections such as wall jumping, navigating an area using only the ceiling, and bouncing along shielded enemies. The Stomp and Chaos Control moves allow for even more precise control with jumping, and with navigating areas with tricky moving obstacles.

Chaos Control and Burst Dash make the player gamble - gain a huge advantage at the expensive of your maximum health? It also makes ring placement much more important in level design, since players will depend upon them to use Chaos Control and Burst Dash, and thus they're necessary and more desirable both for speed runs and high speed action with Burst Dash, and careful platforming and boss fights with Chaos Control. It makes more sense and I think fits the flow of the gameplay better than either making players perform tricks, or giving players the ability to throw rings or whatever.

This moveset, with the reduced focus on Spin Dash (it's more of an offensive move than a free go-fast move) also makes momentum much more important if you don't have the rings to perform Burst Dash.