So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
- Zeta
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So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
And I don't think I'm having the reaction the author wants me to have.
This kid is going around murdering people to date some chick he doesn't even really know.
This is No More Heroes, except we're supposed to like Travis Touchdown and not question his warped morality.
What the fuck?! Am I missing something here, because at this point, I think someone better kill Scott to stop the carnage. And what's more disturbing is how nobody seems to care. "Oh Scott, you so silly for hitting people so hard they explode into pocket change." Maybe it's just my viewpoint from coming off No More Heroes, but this world doesn't seem to have any cohesion and the rules are a hodgepodge of non-sense designed to cover up a murdering spree . . .
This kid is going around murdering people to date some chick he doesn't even really know.
This is No More Heroes, except we're supposed to like Travis Touchdown and not question his warped morality.
What the fuck?! Am I missing something here, because at this point, I think someone better kill Scott to stop the carnage. And what's more disturbing is how nobody seems to care. "Oh Scott, you so silly for hitting people so hard they explode into pocket change." Maybe it's just my viewpoint from coming off No More Heroes, but this world doesn't seem to have any cohesion and the rules are a hodgepodge of non-sense designed to cover up a murdering spree . . .
- Segaholic2
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I never gave it a chance because of the apparent pandering to obsessive fans of Japanese/nerd culture. Was I right in skipping it?
- G.Silver
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Hooray for the Don't Like Scott Pilgrim Club! Popcorn and I had a discussion about this a while back. Neither of us cares for it, but I think a lot of people here do? I really wanted to like it because the game references especially feel really sincere, there's no doubt that O'Malley is the real deal, and if the nerd card were played incorrectly it would have turned me off in an instant. The Space Channel 5-like end piece of the first book is hard to not like and I think it will be really cool in movie form. But my dislike for it was harder to pin down.
Popcorn's angle is that the whole kooky-cute thing is just too perfect and we can't take it seriously because of this, it has too much indie cred to be believable or even likable. They have a female drummer, and Scott is the bassist, the "cutest, kookiest instrument," and it's a Rickenbacker, like a $5000 guitar that no one in a garage band is going to own. I don't even catch these music-scene details but I just saw Rickenbacker and thought FLCL had just played that right the heck out, and maybe they should just ride off on cute scooters next (I'm sure they do). It just reaks of wish fulfillment.
Bothering me far more than any amount of murder, there's a girl in it named "Knives." What is wrong with this world they live in? Is this Canada? For reals?
Popcorn's angle is that the whole kooky-cute thing is just too perfect and we can't take it seriously because of this, it has too much indie cred to be believable or even likable. They have a female drummer, and Scott is the bassist, the "cutest, kookiest instrument," and it's a Rickenbacker, like a $5000 guitar that no one in a garage band is going to own. I don't even catch these music-scene details but I just saw Rickenbacker and thought FLCL had just played that right the heck out, and maybe they should just ride off on cute scooters next (I'm sure they do). It just reaks of wish fulfillment.
Bothering me far more than any amount of murder, there's a girl in it named "Knives." What is wrong with this world they live in? Is this Canada? For reals?
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
That's what you get for reading western manga.
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Does it still count as western if the guy writing it is Asian Canadian?
- Crowbar
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Depends.
How much of each?
How much of each?
- Dr. BUGMAN
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
That's like saying "all food you eat is Indian food cuz you're Indian lol."
Anyway, I bought the series on a regrettable whim. I can't find myself caring for the anemic plot or the flat, similarly looking characters. I'm sure I could pawn them off to some Micheal Cera fanatics when The Movie hype is up.
Anyway, I bought the series on a regrettable whim. I can't find myself caring for the anemic plot or the flat, similarly looking characters. I'm sure I could pawn them off to some Micheal Cera fanatics when The Movie hype is up.
- Esrever
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I don't know what to say, other than that I think you guys have some really strange hang-ups that are preventing you from enjoying a great comic series.
But for anyone out there who isn't instantly turned off by the sight of a female bassist, occasional video game reference, or mildly manga-influenced artwork... I recommend it whole-heartedly. It's a fun, well-crafted book, and incredibly earnest. I find the suggestion that it is somehow "pandering" to be astonishing. There is certainly an element of "wish fulfillment" early in the series, but it's a dream clearly destined to go off the rails, which is part of what makes the story compelling. Scott is written to be a bit of a douchebag and boy, does he suffer for it.
But for anyone out there who isn't instantly turned off by the sight of a female bassist, occasional video game reference, or mildly manga-influenced artwork... I recommend it whole-heartedly. It's a fun, well-crafted book, and incredibly earnest. I find the suggestion that it is somehow "pandering" to be astonishing. There is certainly an element of "wish fulfillment" early in the series, but it's a dream clearly destined to go off the rails, which is part of what makes the story compelling. Scott is written to be a bit of a douchebag and boy, does he suffer for it.
- Protodude
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Man, I would've thought this series would have gotten a more favorable response here. I think some of you guys are taking the wrong things a bit to seriously. I mean, it's basically a story about some guy trying to get the girl and how he changes along the way, told in an exaggerated manner with a cartoony art style.
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Yeah, but most stories like that don't have him murdering all of her ex-boyfriends.Man, I would've thought this series would have gotten a more favorable response here. I think some of you guys are taking the wrong things a bit to seriously. I mean, it's basically a story about some guy trying to get the girl and how he changes along the way, told in an exaggerated manner with a cartoony art style.
He's Fry from Futurama with dark hair, except fewer people make fun of him for being so damn stupid.Scott is written to be a bit of a douchebag and boy, does he suffer for it.
- Esrever
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Dude, he doesn't murder them. He "defeats" them. Totally different!
- Crazy Penguin
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Scott only "kills" the evil exes when they attempt to kill him. It's a kill or be killed situation that he didn't instigate, so he's pretty much in the right. But that's not really the point of it. O'Malley's taken a strange quirk used in video games for practical reasons - enemies that disappear and leave items behind upon defeat - and applied it to a story telling medium. Scott is basically an immature man-child, he approaches life in the same fashion he would approach a video game, particularly his love life. So he starts dating a new girl who has some baggage and it's all just Street Fighter II to him because he hasn't learned how to deal with things in an adult manner. It's a fairly simple metaphor given that it's a coming of age story for the generation of extended teenagerhood.
I can understand the apprehension to a certain degree. There are a lot of comics (particularly online) that are about video games, about being a geek, about reference dropping or that just try too hard to look cool. But Scott Pilgrim is not one of them.
Basically, I'm completely with Esrever on this one. For anyone put off by Scott Pilgrim, at least give Lost At Sea a chance and see that O'Malley is not a one trick pony.
I can't think of any references to Japanese culture off the top of my head. Video games and music mostly, though the former is important thematically and the latter is an integral part of the plot and character relationships. The references are there, but it's never about the references. It's not a comic about video games, or about music, or about hipster fashion. That stuff is just window dressing. It's important to the stylistic identity of the series for sure, but remove it all and you still have a well structured, fully formed and tightly written story.Segaholic2 wrote:I never gave it a chance because of the apparent pandering to obsessive fans of Japanese/nerd culture. Was I right in skipping it?
I can understand the apprehension to a certain degree. There are a lot of comics (particularly online) that are about video games, about being a geek, about reference dropping or that just try too hard to look cool. But Scott Pilgrim is not one of them.
Basically, I'm completely with Esrever on this one. For anyone put off by Scott Pilgrim, at least give Lost At Sea a chance and see that O'Malley is not a one trick pony.
- Senbei
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We actually studied Vol.1 at the comic book school I went to and, yeah, there was this tidal wave of negativity towards the book that I found overwhelming. I liked it well enough, but the majority of the class ragged on it so hard that the guy who recommended it was really taken back and upset. The situation got even more bizarre when O'Malley came to visit the school as a guest lecturer. Everyone in my class was uncomfortably quiet throughout the lecture.
But yeah, Zeta's taking the killing thing way too literally. The series is just a fun metaphor for relationships. It's not always supposed to be taken seriously, and sometimes it's fun and silly just for the sake of it. It's brain candy, and I don't see anything wrong with that. That said, after reading the first four books, I don't feel compelled to continue the series.
But yeah, Zeta's taking the killing thing way too literally. The series is just a fun metaphor for relationships. It's not always supposed to be taken seriously, and sometimes it's fun and silly just for the sake of it. It's brain candy, and I don't see anything wrong with that. That said, after reading the first four books, I don't feel compelled to continue the series.
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
How to not murder people - don't date Ramona.Crazy Penguin wrote:Scott only "kills" the evil exes when they attempt to kill him. It's a kill or be killed situation that he didn't instigate, so he's pretty much in the right.
Except he forgot to make it coherent or anymore than a disturbing gimmick that falls flat.But that's not really the point of it. O'Malley's taken a strange quirk used in video games for practical reasons - enemies that disappear and leave items behind upon defeat - and applied it to a story telling medium.
Too much metaphor, not enough sense.Scott is basically an immature man-child, he approaches life in the same fashion he would approach a video game, particularly his love life. So he starts dating a new girl who has some baggage and it's all just Street Fighter II to him because he hasn't learned how to deal with things in an adult manner. It's a fairly simple metaphor given that it's a coming of age story for the generation of extended teenagerhood.
Segaholic2 wrote:I never gave it a chance because of the apparent pandering to obsessive fans of Japanese/nerd culture. Was I right in skipping it?
Remove it and you just have a generic love story/soap opera that doesn't stand out and could be any generic 20-something love story.I can't think of any references to Japanese culture off the top of my head. Video games and music mostly, though the former is important thematically and the latter is an integral part of the plot and character relationships. The references are there, but it's never about the references. It's not a comic about video games, or about music, or about hipster fashion. That stuff is just window dressing. It's important to the stylistic identity of the series for sure, but remove it all and you still have a well structured, fully formed and tightly written story.
Last edited by G.Silver on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixin' quotes
Reason: fixin' quotes
- Crazy Penguin
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I really don't see how Scott "murdering" the evil exes (who disappear and turn into coins) is any different from Mario "murdering" thousands of Goombas (who also disappear and turn into coins). It's not supposed to be taken any more seriously.
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Mario doesn't have angsty personal relations or a coherent continuity we're supposed to take seriously, or pretend to have characters with actual depth.I really don't see how Scott "murdering" the evil exes (who disappear and turn into coins) is any different from Mario "murdering" thousands of Goombas (who also disappear and turn into coins). It's not supposed to be taken any more seriously.
- Esrever
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Honestly, it's the way Scott Pilgrim mixes believable, "realistic" characterization with the surreal, absurdist elements of their environment that gives the series it's charm. If that combination is not working for you, I can see why you didn't enjoy the book, and are now completely obsessing about trying to translate those absurdist elements through a realistic lense.
But I think it's done quite deftly. The kind of blase way Scott and his friends react to things like subspace travel or stat-building soda always rung true to me. After all, this is just the way their world works. No one freaks out about Scott being a murder because Scott isn't murdering anyone... he is defeating them in battle, and everyone knows that when you win a battle your enemy disappears in a puff of smoke and leaves behind some coins or an extra life.
But I think it's done quite deftly. The kind of blase way Scott and his friends react to things like subspace travel or stat-building soda always rung true to me. After all, this is just the way their world works. No one freaks out about Scott being a murder because Scott isn't murdering anyone... he is defeating them in battle, and everyone knows that when you win a battle your enemy disappears in a puff of smoke and leaves behind some coins or an extra life.
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
That's pretty much the problem I've having. I can't really take a narrative seriously that is trying to be emotional and angsty about hipster interpersonal relationships one second and is using bizarre, nonsensical, and inconsistent world-building rules based on random videogame nostalgia kitsch the next. The dissonance between the two is way too much for me and more often comes off as lazy or just plain twisted to me. I'm big on world building, so if you build a world with alternate rules, those rules HAVE to be consistent to me and have those characters living within those rules have to react to the consequences of those rules with the same gravity you'd expect from us reacting to physics or chemistry in real life. And Scott Pilgrim doesn't do that, even a little. On a narrative/character note, beating the shit out of or killing your girlfriend's exes shouldn't solve their emotional problems with said exes. If anything, it should make them WORSE. It seems like the videogame parody aspect waters down the emotional narrative and vice versa, keeping either from reaching the full potential they could have.
- G.Silver
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I'm not certain that there are emotional problems involved in Scott Pilgrim's ex-boyfriend-slaying tasks, though I only read to book two. It seems to me that it was just Ramona's policy that her old boyfriends are going to show up and try to kill him, that they were driven to it for other reasons. I wonder who her previous ex's had to kill while dating her?
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Well, the psychic guy had a lot of emotional stuff, but the others were just undeveloped blips, yes.
- Esrever
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
What book have you read up to, Zeta?
I'm guessing you haven't read the fifth, at least, just because of some of the things you've said... particularly: "beating the shit out of or killing your girlfriend's exes shouldn't solve their emotional problems with said exes." I thought even the early books at least idly hinted that winning the fights isn't actually going to solve anything, but it's an issue that becomes much more prominent in book 4 and is basically the entire plot of book 5.
I hate to tell anyone they should go purchase books from a series they don't like, but if either you or Silv have the opportunity to read some of the later books I'd really encourage you to do so! Even if you're not a fan I think you'd find it interesting to see how the series addresses a lot of the things you've been talking about.
I'm guessing you haven't read the fifth, at least, just because of some of the things you've said... particularly: "beating the shit out of or killing your girlfriend's exes shouldn't solve their emotional problems with said exes." I thought even the early books at least idly hinted that winning the fights isn't actually going to solve anything, but it's an issue that becomes much more prominent in book 4 and is basically the entire plot of book 5.
I hate to tell anyone they should go purchase books from a series they don't like, but if either you or Silv have the opportunity to read some of the later books I'd really encourage you to do so! Even if you're not a fan I think you'd find it interesting to see how the series addresses a lot of the things you've been talking about.
- Zeta
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
Read up to book 5, still wasn't impressed. Still found it a formulaic "we need to break the main couple up before the final act so we have boy loses girl".
- G.Silver
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I would totally do that but it seems like most of the time the only comics my RL friends read (that aren't from Japan anyway) are the ones I force on them. I guess I could convert some of them into Scott Pilgrim fans and then steal their books.
- Samface
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I'm fully expecting the final book to have all the evil exes return in a Mega Man-style boss rush.
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
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Re: So I'm reading Scott Pilgrim
I read comics the old way you know, I buy one, and if I dont like it, then I dont buy more and more of the same series, I just try to buy something diferent. If I buy I book, I tend to read it all, but if I dont like it, I give it away as a gift to never see it again...