The GHZ Forum

Here is an interview from Kotaku with Sean Ratcliffe and Mike Hayes discussing the Sonic brand. The gist of it is that Sega plans on continuing to make "core" Sonic games every other year while pumping out spin-off sports games, etc. They continue to dismiss the idea of an NSMB-like 2-D revival and point out that their target audience is boys under 12-years-old, NOT original fans. Some excerpts:

To understand how Sega thinks about its most famous mascot, one must appreciate how differently people responded to 2008's werewolf version of Sonic, the Werehog.

That creature, who was playable in the combat sections of last year's Sonic Unleashed, "came in for so much criticism," Sega of America's vice president of market, Sean Ratcliffe recalled for Kotaku during an interview with Sega execs in New York earlier this week. "If you read all those things, and we do — maybe not quite every single one, but the vast majority of them — and it's amazing the sort of diatribes you get. But if you sit down with a group of 8, 9, 10 year-old boys, completely different story."

"If you read everything, we need to be all things to all gamers with Sonic, and that's a difficult thing to do," said Mike Hayes, the head of Sega Europe and, as of last month, the head of Sega of America as well. "Trying to put everything into one game and making everybody happy is impossible. And I think that's something clear going forward."

"...in its day, Sonic was the Modern Warfare," Hayes said. It was, in other words, the edgier thing, the game series that was cooler, more grown up, than Mario." Hayes admired that, even when he worked for five years at Nintendo. "Mario was very much the toy brand," he recalled. "Although it was hugely successful, sometimes we looked enviously at Sega with this cutting edge. Now the world has moved on since Sonic achieved that. Sonic can't compete with Modern Warfare 2. It can't. Whereas, Mario I don't think has ever been anything other than appealing to that demographic."

Nothing too surprising here, but it's nice to know that I don't have to keep my hopes up for the next decade or so. I'll see you all in 10 years.

Well in 10 years maybe their demographic will be 6 year old boys...

If a six year old boy likes the idea, it must be a great plan. In fact, I think SEGA is being RUN by six year old boys right now.

For the sake of this post, I'm going to assume that the awkward term "Modern Warfare" refers to the Sonic franchise's early drive to be edgier than its competition.

As a kid, Sonic never really struck me as edgy, cool, badass or whatever, although I was aware he was marketed that way. Instead, the Genesis games (and especially the first one) had a more tangible whimsical feel to them, in the same sense that Dr. Seuss's childrens' books are whimsical. The levels (with the exception of Scrap Brain) were all charming and inviting, the animal-like robots were arguably too cute to be taken seriously, and Sonic himself was a wild abstraction not only from a real hedgehog, but also what platforming characters had looked like up to that point. That whimsical feeling has a lot more lasting appeal than the obvious attempts to remake the franchise akin to "Modern Warfare 2". Also:

That creature, who was playable in the combat sections of last year's Sonic Unleashed, "came in for so much criticism," Sega of America's vice president of market, Sean Ratcliffe recalled for Kotaku during an interview with Sega execs in New York earlier this week. "If you read all those things, and we do — maybe not quite every single one, but the vast majority of them — and it's amazing the sort of diatribes you get. But if you sit down with a group of 8, 9, 10 year-old boys, completely different story."

Good God, Sega needs to stop letting niche demographics drag this franchise into further mediocity. The original Sonic the Hedgehog was a shot in the dark. But it had a simple, intuitive control scheme, charming environments and characters, and a fair difficulty. It was a game that anyone could enjoy, and I feel that the development team knew this. The mentality of the recent developers needs to stop being "Okay, what can we add to this game to make appealing to [X] audience?" and more like "Here's a game concept we developers know is fun and is possible to be executed well".

In other words, the developers have to enjoy the game that they're developing.

"Kids like dinosaurs, vampires, and ninjas. Obviously, the next Sonic game must include Sonic morphing into a dinosaur vampire ninja."

This reminds me of the way Poochy was designed on the Simpsons - putting a bunch of kids in a room and asking them what their favorite things were then throwing them all into a character and then being shocked when the results were awful.

Is there any popular cartoon character that was entirely created by commitee? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm curious.

Yeah, I got a sense of closure out of this interview. Not that I had any hope that there would be a return to form or anything. Kinda like when the put a brain-dead patient to rest.

Mario can be unabashedly Mario, and appeal to just about everyone under the Sun.

I think Sonic should be more like Modern Warfare, tee bee ach. Just add some guns and Russians.

Welp, time to shut down this site.

Well then, it was fun you guys (and girls), may your lives be successful and happy.


I just wish they would see that companies like pixar or nintendo get by just fine and make money off of all ages by making technically sound and fun products that appeal to ALL ages.

So this is just a confirmation of what has been going on for the past couple of years, isn't it?

Anyway, I still hope that one night Oshima and a few other old minds behind Sonic will sneak into SEGA's headquarters, knock out every current developer of Sonic, and then make and publish something akin to Sonic DVD before the morning dawns.

So they're going for quality suitable for 12-year-olds. No wonder they've been so bad. How hard is it to please a 12-year-old? And how do you evaluate it? "Did he smile or giggle at all? Great, we're done here."

I wonder what exactly they're doing differently to approach their "core" fans. At least they claim to be making an attempt to please them and haven't moved on to just 12-year-olds.

(Trying real hard to be optimistic.)

No, that's just rhetoric. Here is what they think appeals to original fans:

It's that last group — those core Sonic fans — who seem to be the ones grumbling most [...] about the fate of the franchise. Hayes suggested some ways Sega might produce a Sonic for that community: "Often it can be looking at another take on the nostalgic take on Sonic. Or re-issues. They're very popular. Fans do like that."

Mega Man 9, well I guess in this case it would be Sonic the Hedgehog 4, is pretty much the most requested thing I've seen lately. I'm sure Sega will find some way to fuck up such a simple and easy idea beyond comprehension, though.

This is a typical product development mistake that drives creativity and quality to the ground. Letting the marketing and publicity team be the head. Marketing teams should shut the fuck up and let real designers do their job. Goddammit.

I can't believe the guy has the nerve to defend Sonic 2k6 with this "I know it sucks, but it sells" speech.

Argh. Shit. Fuck. Can't believe I just (just as in today) bought Sonic Unleashed and gave money to these guys.

I feel like posting a bigass facepalm macro after reading that damn interview.

But at least they were honest to admit to themselves that the franchise is doomed to the Nickelodeon gaming ghetto. Does this mean there will be less coverage of Sonic games to come from many websites since it's now officially kiddy shovelware?

"Often it can be looking at another take on the nostalgic take on Sonic. Or re-issues. They're very popular. Fans do like that."

Judging from the rest of their comments, he has no understanding of why, but *smileandnod*!

At the risk of flogging the dead horse, Sega attempting to hop on board the "retro revival" bus is something I do not want to see out of them - or anyone they hire to do it - period. Not now anyway. If they can't use basic common sense with the original games they make, what makes anybody believe a "Sonic 4" will be any better than regurgitated/lukewarm fanservice? I will play fangames if I want that.

It must be six year olds up there cause that third quote in the title post is brimming with backwards-ass logic that makes no sense. They may push this "cool Sonic for the kiddos only" gobbledygook all they like, but it's evident to me that Sega West has no idea (or care) what is coming out of their mouths to satisfy the reporters. It's such that when asked about anything they may be doing to pay tribute to the US Dreamcast launch (albeit kind of a lame question), Hayes is ridiculously polite in his answer, as if he is conditioned not to answer a question without reaching for a whole bunch of bull excess information. Ok, maybe that's a little cynical, but I mean, how long does it take to answer that?

BTW, about Ratcliffe's stupid "fixing Sonic will take time" moment from a little while ago - stalling tactic. Classic excuse for not having any real answer to give. I hope so, anyway.

I guess what we have to hope for is that the R&D wing in japan (aka the people who actually matter) hasn't been convinced to have their heads this far up their asses. Might be too late there, but. As of late, Sega in japan seems a little bit more dedicated toward maintaining a recognizable identity for itself and their brands.

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:For the sake of this post, I'm going to assume that the awkward term "Modern Warfare" refers to the Sonic franchise's early drive to be edgier than its competition.

As a kid, Sonic never really struck me as edgy, cool, badass or whatever, although I was aware he was marketed that way. Instead, the Genesis games (and especially the first one) had a more tangible whimsical feel to them, in the same sense that Dr. Seuss's childrens' books are whimsical.

I disagree with this. Sonic definitely had an edge over Mario back in the day. Take levels like Death Egg Zone, (Sonic 2 and S&K versions), Angel Island Act 2, Chemical Plant, Doomsday Zone, The Lava Reef Boss, Death Egg Boss, etc. You would never see levels like that in a Mario game, they relied on speed, were full of action, explosions, and some really cool techno music. Mario, on the other hand, would run through colorful fields, jumping on turtles, while cartoony music plays in the background.

Sonic also had attitude. While he never spoke in the old games, he evoked his attitude through his actions. Wait too long and Sonic would get bored and look at the viewer with a peeved look. Teeter over an edge and Sonic would nervously wobble. (My favorite version of this animation was in Sonic 2.) I remember the old commerical for Sonic 1 featured a critic saying 'why can't he be more like that nice boy Mario?' while Sonic grumbled quietly in the background, before sticking his tongue out at the critic and taking off. The critic then commented that Sonic was a 'little brat' SEGA marketed him as a cocky, arrogant wiseass hero, as they always should. Lately, Sonic's gotten 'too nice' and cutesy, with him commenting on the real power of teamwork, hanging out with a pussy anime boy, and falling in love with human Princesses. Even the coverart for his games lack any sort of attitude.


(This may not be the greatest Sonic title, but that's not the point.) Here we have Sonic escaping Eggman's lair, as it's falling apart with a
'ha ha fuck you eggman' look on his face, while Eggman is furiously stomping his fists. The picture conveys a sense of action and cockiness
from its hero.


And um, then we have this. It's just Sonic standing there, with a 'Hey there kids!' look on his face, while cute characters like
Cream and Tails smile innocently in the background. It's like artwork you'd find on a Happy Meal box or something.


And if that wasn't bad enough, then we get this. It looks like the cover to a Sonic game designed for preschoolers.

About the news, it's saddening, but really explains why Sonic's been the way he has for the past few years.

Sonic also had attitude. While he never spoke in the old games, he evoked his attitude through his actions. Wait too long and Sonic would get bored and look at the viewer with a peeved look. Teeter over an edge and Sonic would nervously wobble. (My favorite version of this animation was in Sonic 2.) I remember the old commerical for Sonic 1 featured a critic saying 'why can't he be more like that nice boy Mario?' while Sonic grumbled quietly in the background, before sticking his tongue out at the critic and taking off. The critic then commented that Sonic was a 'little brat' SEGA marketed him as a cocky, arrogant wiseass hero, as they always should. Lately, Sonic's gotten 'too nice' and cutesy, with him commenting on the real power of teamwork, hanging out with a pussy anime boy, and falling in love with human Princesses. Even the coverart for his games lack any sort of attitude.

A lot of this seems to stem entirely from American-based marketing campaigns since being "EDGY" was in during the early '90s.

Yes, Mario has always been appealing to its demographic, but that demographic includes the same kids who enjoyed the games fifteen years ago but are now grown up. The Sonic franchise, meanwhile, seems focused wholly on screwing over everyone who had the nerve to get older. I can't believe he's even trying to make the comparison.

Well, that's it for me. I'm well past expecting any future Sonic games to be good. It's not gonna happen when the developers have no professional pride whatsoever. The only possible positive outcome now would be if Sega went bankrupt and some more competent developer picked up the Sonic brand.

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:For the sake of this post, I'm going to assume that the awkward term "Modern Warfare" refers to the Sonic franchise's early drive to be edgier than its competition.

No, it refers to Call of Duty. Duh.

Zeta wrote:

Sonic also had attitude. While he never spoke in the old games, he evoked his attitude through his actions. Wait too long and Sonic would get bored and look at the viewer with a peeved look. Teeter over an edge and Sonic would nervously wobble. (My favorite version of this animation was in Sonic 2.) I remember the old commerical for Sonic 1 featured a critic saying 'why can't he be more like that nice boy Mario?' while Sonic grumbled quietly in the background, before sticking his tongue out at the critic and taking off. The critic then commented that Sonic was a 'little brat' SEGA marketed him as a cocky, arrogant wiseass hero, as they always should. Lately, Sonic's gotten 'too nice' and cutesy, with him commenting on the real power of teamwork, hanging out with a pussy anime boy, and falling in love with human Princesses. Even the coverart for his games lack any sort of attitude.

A lot of this seems to stem entirely from American-based marketing campaigns since being "EDGY" was in during the early '90s.

It's a sad, sad day when that brand of 90s tude really, genuinely sounds great compared to what we've got now.

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:For the sake of this post, I'm going to assume that the awkward term "Modern Warfare" refers to the Sonic franchise's early drive to be edgier than its competition.

As a kid, Sonic never really struck me as edgy, cool, badass or whatever, although I was aware he was marketed that way. Instead, the Genesis games (and especially the first one) had a more tangible whimsical feel to them, in the same sense that Dr. Seuss's childrens' books are whimsical.

Yes sir, that's exactly how I felt. I did like the technologic and apocalyptic tones though as well. Robots are amazing to kids, as well as destroyed cities.

I think those are all amazing to adults as well.

ITT "I had to walk ten miles uphill BOTH WAYS to play MY videogames!"