NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

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Zeta
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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Zeta »

Have you played Panzer Dragoon Saga, Zeta? I'd also be curious as to how you played the original NiGHTS. Did you do the bare minimum, or did you go for high scores and A ranks on every level?
No, I never played Panzer Dragoon saga, though I played every other game in the series and enjoyed them because of the setting, I sort of feel that Star Fox 64 did everything the shooter aspects of the series did but better, even if I like the setting and concepts behind PD more. Mysterious biological monsters beat furries every time.

As for NiGHTS, this last summer I borrowed it, Christmas NiGHTs, and a Saturn from a friend for a week and a half. I enjyoed myself, but I'm not a gamer who enjoys trying to get high scores for the sake of high scores. I'm an exploration/experience gamer. I don't play to try to challenge myself, so much as to immerse myself in an interesting setting. I only shoot for high scores/extras if there's extra content for me to view should I complete it. Otherwise I just feel frustrated. I did replay NiGHTs several times and enjoyed it, but I don't quite think it's on the level of untouchable masterpiece like everyone claims. I don't know, maybe I just can't appreciate arcade-style "challenge me till my fingers bleed/hardcore" games. I also replayed NiGHTS a couple of times for scores, but soon bored of it and tried to toy around with the A-Life system, only to become frustrated that it basically felt like random chance if you ever actually accomplished anything with the fucking Pians. In general, I HATE the idea of scoring someone's gameplay experience. You shouldn't be penalized or judged because you're not playing the game the way the designers wanted - and they want to shoo you along the path. You can give them a goal and the means to accomplish that goal, but taking apart what they did piece by piece and assigning arbitrary numbers to their actions always seemed silly to me, and I never paid attention to scores in ANY videogame growing up. I got my satisfaction from looking around or just watching the story and enjoying the world.

When I originally played the game as a preteen, I was just out and out FRUSTRATED with NIGHTS because here was this vast 3-D world I found interesting, but ultimately were NOT SUPPOSED to truly explore since they wanted to keep you on a track. That's ultimately what drove me towards Mario 64 and a Nintendo 64. NiGHTs promised the freedom of flight but ultimately gave you a "fake" sort of restricted freedom instead of allowing true flight. And I thought Mario 64's Wing Cap actually captured that experience better even though it wasn't the focal point of the game. Playing NiGHTs when I was younger, I would avoid actually using NiGHTS because I found hopping around and exploring as the children more interesting and relaxing. Playing it in my 20's, I do enjoy th feeling of acrobatics and flow more, but I still think it's a weird premise because I don't think a game on a track or in 2D could ever really capture the feeling of true flight.

In short, I like NIGHTs, but prefer exploration to score/speed running levels in any game series, so perhaps that part of the game went over my head? The reason I'm enjoying JoD right now is because I'm collecting Dreamdrops and Pians for my garden. It's more interesting to me because I get a visual, physical reward for my accomplishments instead of a grade or set of numbers or letters. It's more satisfying to me and makes me want to replay more.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Dasher »

I got all "A" on this game and I got The Night into Dreams sound track on the sound room and I got all the dream drops and I got surprise, surprise! Eliot and claris, they can play every level its very funny cause theyre animeish, they look hot!they maybe the Nights PS2 remake models

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Cuckooguy »

Speaking of Mario Sunshine, I just beat the game with 75 stars yesterday and I think the addition of the FLUDD is one of it's smaller problems, if it's even a problem at all (it never bothered me), because it's a large amount of other design decisions that ultimately make the game weaker than the quality people expect of the series, particularly in instances on where you'll run around and roam for 20 minutes before you figure out what it is you're supposed to be doing. These instances may be much fewer than the instances where it's clear on what you're supposed to be doing, but there's enough of them to warrant me to wonder what the hell the designers were thinking. There's also the instances for when you lose a life and then get spit out of the stage when I feel lives exist for you to redo that stage, which makes me wonder why I have lives in the first place (at least they work how I expect them to work in those secret stages). I know Mario 64 also spit you out of paintings when you lost a life, so I guess Mario Galaxy kind of spoiled me on that aspect. Also, there are a couple of shines that are based on luck, and achieving stars/shines should never ever be based on luck.

Also, blue coins. Fucking blue coins. They're the reason why I don't care to get all 120 stars.

Despite these complaints, overall it's still a good game that's worth checking out. It's not Mario's new arsenal that really bothers me, it's the notable amount of "Did the designers design it this way just to artificially increase the amount of play time?"

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Post by Isuka »

Zeta wrote:Six thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven characters worth of tl;dr
You can go on day and night Zeta, the controllers still suck. ;)

Also, how are we supposed to decide who pays the drinks without a Crazy Taxi or Samba de Amigo "score wars"?
Last edited by Isuka on Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by DackAttac »

...That reminds me of my roommate who turned my Sonic 1 into a drinking game.

Unfortunately, he was already pretty toasted, so the rules consisted of "every time you hit something, you take a drink."

Shit got pretty interesting by Spring Yard.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Zeta »

You can go on day and night Zeta, the controllers still suck. ;)
OK yeah, you're right. The Wii is an awful system because the nunchuck has an octagon instead of a perfect circle. It's a crippling feature that will sink the company.

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Post by Isuka »

Not sure for Nintendo itself, but most third parties do look to be burned one after the other because of Nintendo's policies with its consoles (see: Squaresoft, Namco, Activision, Capcom), then being forced to develop exclusive shit for the Wii that gets easily outselled by Nintendo's games, and even more compared to the other multiplatform titles. But since the Wii is a completely alternative system to the mainstream, it shouldn't be considered as a flaw or anything... right?

And Dack's anecdote made me wonder... doesn't Sonic's bubble-breathing animation look like he's taking a big gulp of water?
It looks even better with Chemical Plant's suspiciously purple-colored fluids.

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Post by Ritz »

Guys, the octagon was the most innovative aspect of any controller ever conceived; it strikes a balance between the fluidity of the average thumbstick and the precision of the D-Pad. Can you imagine playing Super Monkey Ball well without the octagon? No, you can't. Shut up. Fuck you. Go home.

That said, I wish games still made use of the D-Pad for, y'know, movement, as opposed to camerawork and other such miscellaneous tasks- as it stands, it's little more than a vestigial organ of generations past. I love the D-Pad. In fact, get this: I refuse to play NiGHTS with anything other than a D-Pad.
Isuka wrote:It looks even better with Chemical Plant's suspiciously purple-colored fluids.
It would, if there were any air bubbles in Chemical Plant. :psyduck:

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Esrever »

I don't really get why people are complaining about sales of 3rd party software on the Wii. What are all these great third party Wii games that deserve to be selling better?

The only one I can think of is Zack and Wiki, and I guarantee you it wouldn't have sold any better on the 360 or the PS3. But what few other good 3rd party titles there are -- Resident Evil, Rayman Raving Rabbids, Guitar Hero 3, Trauma Center -- are all selling somewhere between decently and spectacularly for their respective genres.

Maybe the reason most 3rd party software has underperformed is because it is atrociously poor shovelware, not because Wii owners hate everything that doesn't have Mario in it, eh? Every time a half-assed, slapped-together title like Soul Calibur Legends bombs at retail, we should be throwing a party, not crying.

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Post by Isuka »

Well, I don't feel sorry for Wii owners, only for the third parties (if it's even possible to "feel sorry" for a faceless corporation).
OK so, then someone explain me why the Wii gets the most shovelware please.
Ritz wrote:In fact, get this: I refuse to play NiGHTS with anything other than a D-Pad.
... I pity your thumb. Really.
Ritz wrote:It would, if there were any air bubbles in Chemical Plant. :psyduck:
OK then, It would look even better with Chemical Plant's suspiciously purple-colored fluids. Sheesh.

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Zeta
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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Zeta »

OK so, then someone explain me why the Wii gets the most shovelware please.
The same reason the Gameboys have always gotten the most shovelware:

1) It's the most popular.
2) It's the most appealing towards kids, who aren't supposed to know the difference between licensed crap like "Mary Kate and Ashley Shopping Adventure" and a decent games. And even if they do, probably have parents and grandparents who don't.

And, exclusive to the Wii:
3) Has the least expectation for next generation graphics, so they can just throw anything together and expect people to believe that this is the best the Wii can do, visually.

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Post by Ngangbius »

Isuka wrote:Well, I don't feel sorry for Wii owners, only for the third parties (if it's even possible to "feel sorry" for a faceless corporation).
Why should we feel sorry for third party company if they are outputting crap?

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Post by Isuka »

You know, at this moment I'm not sure which one is the cause and which one the effect.

I sincerely don't think that a port of a GameCube game (Resident Evil 4) can be considered an exception to the rule, and thankfully Umbrella Chronicles proves that Capcom can pull it out if they try, but even then... that game'll most probably look like an afterthought when compared to whatever Resident Evil 5 will be.

What I do know is that RE4 was awesome on the cube, it sold like crap and Capcom had to resort to a PS2 port in order to make it profitable. It doesn't matter if it happens on a Nintendo system or someone's else, the fact itself is worrying.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Zeta »

Vastly different demographics. Viva Pinata is one of the greatest Sim games of all time, and it sold like shit on Xbox because Rare doesn't fit in with Microsoft's "Gunstravaganza" image they've promoted over the years.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Locit »

Zeta wrote:No, I never played Panzer Dragoon saga, though I played every other game in the series and enjoyed them because of the setting, I sort of feel that Star Fox 64 did everything the shooter aspects of the series did but better, even if I like the setting and concepts behind PD more. Mysterious biological monsters beat furries every time.
Oh man, I really cannot recommend Saga to you enough. It pretty much spends the entirety of its four discs doing nothing but fleshing out the Panzer Dragoon world.

I'm not usually a high-score oriented person either, to tell the truth. To me, though, NiGHTS actually made the going for A ranks fun- the better you were at controlling NiGHTS and racking up links the higher your score, and the thought of getting a higher score was appealing because it also meant having fun. It was a delightfully circular process! I never felt restricted by the flight paths (despite having played Mario 64) because you still saw everything worth seeing if you played the level, but in a way that delivered a highly concentrated experience thanks to the linearity of the paths. What did make the 3D exploration neat was the alarm egg, which made it feel like you were getting away with something. If you had any coordination at all you could knock it out and generally see what you wanted to see at your leisure. In JoD the stages aren't nearly as well laid out for this sort of alternate exploration, and the bluish blobs that show up if you take to long are ultimately inescapable.

I also tend to find that, unlike yourself, most people who dismiss NiGHTS as all hype have never played it and never give it any real consideration.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by gr4yJ4Y »

Zeta wrote:
OK so, then someone explain me why the Wii gets the most shovelware please.
The same reason the Gameboys have always gotten the most shovelware:

1) It's the most popular.
2) It's the most appealing towards kids, who aren't supposed to know the difference between licensed crap like "Mary Kate and Ashley Shopping Adventure" and a decent games. And even if they do, probably have parents and grandparents who don't.

And, exclusive to the Wii:
3) Has the least expectation for next generation graphics, so they can just throw anything together and expect people to believe that this is the best the Wii can do, visually.
According to EGM, Nintendo also has a more lenient approval process than Microsoft and Sony.
Isuka wrote:What I do know is that RE4 was awesome on the cube, it sold like crap and Capcom had to resort to a PS2 port in order to make it profitable. It doesn't matter if it happens on a Nintendo system or someone's else, the fact itself is worrying.
I thought it sold relatively well. According to this press release, in its first 4 months it sold relatively well. Capcom just wanted to expand its audience and milk it because they're Capcom and that's just something they do.

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Zeta
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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Zeta »

I love that the escort missions change so that you have both NiGHTs 1 characters together instead of Elliot and Helen or Will and Claris. ^_^ Only 12 more drops and I'll have them.

On a related note, I find it really stupid that the NiGHTs 1 remake wasn't included in JoD, considering they're being made at nearly the same time. Seems like it would have probably garnered more interest in one game with two combined than two seperately . . .

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Ngangbius »

gr4yJ4Y wrote:
Isuka wrote:What I do know is that RE4 was awesome on the cube, it sold like crap and Capcom had to resort to a PS2 port in order to make it profitable. It doesn't matter if it happens on a Nintendo system or someone's else, the fact itself is worrying.
I thought it sold relatively well. According to this press release, in its first 4 months it sold relatively well. Capcom just wanted to expand its audience and milk it because they're Capcom and that's just something they do.
Not to mention, Capcom announced the PS2 port before RE4 for the GCN was released, not after.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Esrever »

Yeah, the fact that the PS2 port was announced before the Cube version was even released shows the decision was probably driven more by a fear of bad sales than by actual bad sales themselves.

But to me, the really bizarre part is that -- even thought there has already been a Cube, PS2, and PC version -- the Wii version of Resident Evil 4 has still managed to sell more than a million copies. Pretty impressive for a port of a two-year-old game! Assuming UC doesn't bomb, I think it's pretty safe bet that we'll be getting another 'proper' RE title for the Wii as well.

As for the deluge of shovelware, I'm sure it's partly because it's the most popular system, partly because it's the most 'youth-oriented' system, and partly because it's the cheapest system to develop for. But more than any of those other reasons, I think it's because publishers were caught off guard by the Wii's success, and as a result, didn't have anything in development for it. Once the thing took off, a lot of opportunistic developers scrambled to fill the gap by slapping together whatever atrocious crap or quick-and-dirty port they can get completed in time for the holidays.

I mean, look at Wii games like SSX Blur or Prince of Persia 3 or Farcry. Titles like that really can't help but scream "oh crap, people are buying this thing... quick, what pre-existing assets can we reuse to crank out a game in six months?!?"

But on the plus side, at least no one is buying that stuff. Hopefully the poor sales of cranked-out garbage, combined with the continued high sales of the Wii, will encourage developers that the Wii is going to be around for at least a couple more years, and that it is ok to take the time to make stuff for it that isn't garbage. The ironic thing is that Sega is one of the few developers that IS devoting significant money and resources to creating big, original Wii games.... they've just all been kinda awful!

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Zeta »

They're not awful, they're just not A-List stuff. But since this is Nu Sega, that's to be expected.
Oh man, I really cannot recommend Saga to you enough. It pretty much spends the entirety of its four discs doing nothing but fleshing out the Panzer Dragoon world.
It does sound nice, but I have no idea how to get my mits on it.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Locit »

The Saturn emulator SSF works just fine if you download the respective PDS roms and put them on 4 separate CDs. It'll run on any halfway decent PC, though having to run games off of CDs is pretty irksome. I'd suggest using a 360 PC pad to play if you can help it, as it's pretty much the logical evolution of the Saturn 3D controller.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Mep »

Or you could mount the iso to a virtual drive using Daemon Tools. It saves you a CD, and I think it loads faster as well. Either way, SSF runs it perfect on my PC and I can barely play Sonic DX.
Last edited by Mep on Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Isuka »

For God's sake, uncheck the second and third checkboxes, and after that watch the buttons and select "Decline" in DT's setup, those are bullshitware.

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Re: NiGHTS: JoD is LAAAAME

Post by Sniffnoy »

Locit wrote:I'd suggest using a 360 PC pad to play if you can help it, as it's pretty much the logical evolution of the Saturn 3D controller.
Wow... I am so glad that website exists.

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Post by Mep »

Isuka wrote:For God's sake, uncheck the second and third checkboxes, and after that watch the buttons and select "Decline" in DT's setup, those are bullshitware.
Oh, um yeah. I forgot about that. I edited the link to go to the older version. Its all good right?

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