The GHZ Forum

I know you've heard this damn question a million times and you've probably come up with a smartass response that didn't really answer the question. Understandable. It's just a game. But, I've been trying to use this question for a story I plan to use in a short Sonic comic, which I'll explain later. The concept being that if a being is supposedly of amazingly high intelligence, then why can't it destroy something that is decidely inferior in intelligence?

So, as you know, the example is: If Robotnik is such a genius, then why can't he kill Sonic?

I'm going to use examples from my discussion with Geo T. Fox on AIM to make this post a bit more convenient on my part. Thank god for the copy/paste button. Also, I thank Vodka, Grenadine, and pineapple juice for helping me to kill tons of time thinking this crap over. So, let's begin.
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The fact that Robotnik can't kill Sonic seems self-contradictory and absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth. No shit, this is just a fancy way of saying it is a paradox. Now, I would like you all to skim through this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences

The article says that there are several types of intelligences. Linguistic, Logical/Mathematical, Spatial, Kinesthetic, Musical, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, blah blah blah. He has them all, but just varying levels of ability in each of the intelligences. Just like everyone else. So, you could say that at one level he can build these amazing machines, but in another, he can't come up with a decent plan to kill Sonic. Well, maybe, but to build these machines, he can't possibly rely on just one of these intelligences. He may need just about all of them. Hell, not just may. He does. And considering the sheer sophistication of these machines, one would think he is HIGHLY advanced in more than one category.

-"But evidently he's not."-

But, still you have to consider the machines. For example, the conductor of a symphony clearly uses musical intelligence, but also uses interpersonal to communicate and direct the group and bodily-kinesthetic to use his hands and body in order to conduct. To make these machines, he needs more than one of the listed categories. He makes these machines quite well to say the very least. For example, the fucking Death Egg. So, the notion that he isn't adept in all these categories is pretty much bullshit given that information.

Thinking inside the universe of Sonic, my theory is that it is a psychological barrier. I'll explain this, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

Well, it's just a thought, but I always figured the reason he never killed Sonic was because, you know, he's kinda the main charater?

Q. If Dr. Wiley is a genius why didn't he ever kill Megaman?

A. Sequels

Robotnik kills Sonic all the time. It's a video game. :D

Remix wrote:I know you've heard this damn question a million times and you've probably come up with a smartass response that didn't really answer the question.

So much for that.

Well, on another forum, a member came up with this gem:

"There is one thing both geniouses and machines lack: the ability to calculate in unlogical actions. Sonic is able to do things simply because of his sheer stupidity. He just lacks the logic. Robotnik however builds robots who are programmed to do certain things, and robots are always limited to their programs.

Robotnik himself can't understand the logic of Sonic, and even if he did, he would have to limit his machines to just a few calculatable actions Sonic would do. And even so, every living creature is uncalculatable."

I'd wager that the most significant factor in his constant failure would be his own ego. I mean, honestly, he's had so many opportunities to get a leg up on Sonic, and they all fell through because he couldn't keep his damn mouth shut. Take Sonic Labyrinth, for example; when Sonic donned the Speed Down sneakers, he'd probably have never figured how to remove them if Eggman hadn't left his insignia on their soles. Not to mention the time he announced his eminent conquest of the Earth on television the world over and blew up half of the moon for emphasis.

And then there's his penchant for constructing grandiose, very noticable fortresses, and plastering his face all over the more inconspicuous ones. That, and his habit of sending Sonic cordial letters outlining his latest schemes in great detail, wheither or not whatever he's had planned is even finished. This sort of ties into one of the theories that've been tossed about here at one point or another- y'know, the one about Sonic and Eggman sharing a mutual respect for each other. He's only really in it for the challenge, and it keeps him from exerting the full extent of his abilities.

The challenge, huh?

If he is as intelligent as he would have to be to do what he has done, he would realize that if Sonic were terminated he would eventually have nothing to live for. His plans would be followed through perfectly and he would rule the world, but deep in his subconscious mind, he is aware that this would be ultimately unsatisfying. If an individual is so power-hungry that he has a desire to rule the world, once he achieves this, he will want more. Obviously, there will be no more to obtain. So, he subconsciously places a weakness in his plans that Sonic can permeate, causing it to be unsuccessful from the start. Thus, ensuring that he and Sonic will have more battles in the future.

I've always had this love-hate relationship with plots in video games for this reason. Which version of reality should I accept? If I truly have taken on the identity of the main character, then isn't the "real" version Eggman got me with his ball & chain machine the first time? Or is the "real" version the culmination of each life where I didn't die? And if the latter is true, is this really an interactive experience? Maybe it wasn't meant to be any more than a novel is. Isn't the control you have illusional, then? Don't you win, no matter what?

Which means... Sonic can't die. He's so insanely lucky by default (since reality "for him" is simply stitched together from the times the player got it right), he's immortal. Unless you get to the end of a game, where Eggman just blows Sonic's brains out in the closing cutscene. Yes, a little too dark for their target audience, but bear with me for the sake of example.

Even though Sonic dies in this manner at the end, it's still at the end that gets taken into canon. Which means that when you tear through a level, no matter how filled with treacherous peril, none of it will kill you. If you die, it's going to be in a cutscene at the end.

Which means that you aren't really playing the role of the character, you're just guiding them to the predetermined end. It's like being a guardian angel. Yeah, you can point people in the right direction, but you still answer to God.

So it's not that Eggman is mentally incapable of killing Sonic, "God" just won't let it happen.

Although, here's more food for thought—Game Over. I loved Game Over. In the telling of the story, Game Over meant Sonic failed. I try to imagine how the events of SA1 would unfold if instead of squaring off against Eggman and Perfect Chaos to create a happy ending, his mangled corpse was being dragged around, impaled on a rotating spike ball in Speed Highway.

We used to have a true Game Over. It used to send you back to the beginning of the game, creating a true sense of failure to stop the villain. Then it used to send you back to the beginning of the level you were attempting, with no in-level save points. Now, Secret Rings seems to have done away with them altogether. But, maybe this is more honest in admitting that Sonic will inevitably get to the end of the mission regardless.

Banjo Kazooie and DK64 showed what happened when your character failed....but those are the only 2 examples I can think of.

To answer your question....just because he's a genius, doesn't mean he can succeed at everything. Robotnik is a scientific genius, not a catching-speedy-blue-hedgehogs genius. He can design and build advanced robots and machines, but to create plans and execute them is entirely different.

Or maybe he's so blinded by his incredible urge to rule the world, that he often makes stupid little mistakes and overlooks important factors.

Or maybe he has so much confidence in his creations, he doesn't try to create traps or plans that are a little more sneaky. Instead hoping that a few robots can just kill Sonic right then and there.

But it's something you're not supposed to think about. The series is meant for children so they don't expect you to analyze his mind and find anything deep. They want you to just cheer for the good guy and boo the bad guy.

It's probably a combination of these ideas. Robotnik just can't grasp the means by which Sonic always wins: as corny as it sounds, it's all about heart, bravery, and so on, none of which Robotnik or his creations have. I imagine that since Sonic is such an enigma to him (how do you keep getting your ass handed to you by some woodland creature whose only special attribute is his speed?), he's become more focused on the challenge of beating Sonic than on actual world domination, but has enough respect for Sonic (as well as an understanding that things will get tremendously boring if Sonic were out of the picture, though he probably won't admit that even to himself) that he doesn't intend to kill him, but just to defeat and humiliate him. He probably prefers the psychological victory over the physical victory, and I don't think he'd get much pleasure out of just shooting Sonic while he's not looking.

On that note, Sonic's got the same problem: he doesn't want to kill Robotnik. Because of that, the big guy just keeps coming back to cause more trouble (of course, lately he's more of a buffoon than a threat, but you get the idea). Obviously, Sonic's not exactly frustrated by this.

It's a classic chase routine. Neither will ever soundly defeat the other and the battle will go on as long as both are still able, and neither really wants it to end.

Dr. SEGA Monkey wrote:Banjo Kazooie and DK64 showed what happened when your character failed....but those are the only 2 examples I can think of.

And Comix Zone. When you blow it, instead of a generic "Game Over" screen, you get the extra bad ending where Mortus is fully integrated into the real world and does the typical supervillan bragging. No credits afterward though.

Not to mention Chrono Trigger after failing to beat Lavos. I still remember being bummed out all those years ago over that ending, pointing to you stating, 'yeah, you screwed up'.

And the reason why Eggman can't kill Sonic is he's seems to be one of those villians who have these elaborate and extravagant death traps designed to brutally kill the protagonist in an extraordinary way, but they have some fatal flaw or two that is usually been overlooked because ot the complexity of the trap. He probably think Sonic is enough of a worthy adversary to deserved to be defeated by his complex machinery, and like Black Rook said, taking the easiest way of killing Sonic like a bullet to the head would seem like a hollow victory for him.

I think one of the best "dying sequences" I've seen comes from Conker's Bad Fur Day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWpJ0Cl4 ... ed&search=

Ritz wrote:blew up half of the moon for emphasis.

Actually, I'm still kinda curious about that one. I mean, he blew it up, fine, but then it got whole again. Weird, innit?

Shadow Hog wrote:Actually, I'm still kinda curious about that one. I mean, he blew it up, fine, but then it got whole again. Weird, innit?

I always figured that at some point Sonic and his friends used the power of friendship and teamwork to bring back the moon.

Maybe they also used the power of teamwork to fix Blaze's conflicting backstories.

According to the Sonic X canon, Robotnik himself repaired the moon synthetically. While this left open possibilities of Moon-Death Egg fusion, it was only used to sell people some kind of fancy street lamp...

I'm all for the "neither really wants the chase to end" concept. It's pretty much blindingly obvious on Sonic's end, too. Dr. Eggman sends him threats and Sonic's just like "I'm obviously walking right into a trap, but it'll be fun!"

Robotnik is a genius. But, you see, the message of the Sonic games is this: brawn will always trump brains. You can have an IQ of 300 and build multiple flying aircrafts, but as soon as you meet a guy that can run fast, it's over.

It's definitely the "neither wants the battle to end" bit. I like it when the hero and the villain have mutual respect for one another. It reminds me of Tom & Jerry.

If Eggman was smart he would have waited until Sonic entered the Wing Fortress or Metropolis Zone or whatever and then nuked it!

FlashTHD wrote: And Comix Zone. When you blow it, instead of a generic "Game Over" screen, you get the extra bad ending where Mortus is fully integrated into the real world and does the typical supervillan bragging. No credits afterward though.

Oh yeah....I forgot about that one. I always kind of skip that scene since it's really not that entertaining to watch.

What about in SA2, when Robotnik launched Sonic into space in that capsule. If Sonic didn't know how to activate Chaos Control, or had the fake emerald, he would've died. It kinda shows Robotnik isn't completely inept.

Sonic Adventure 2 was Eggman at his most competent and outright evil... which made his friendly chat with Tails during the credits all the more bizarre.

When you're tapped in a space station that's about to go hurtling towards the Earth in a firey blaze, I guess you go through a change of heart pretty quickly.

Shadow Hog wrote:

Ritz wrote:blew up half of the moon for emphasis.

Actually, I'm still kinda curious about that one. I mean, he blew it up, fine, but then it got whole again. Weird, innit?

I actually read in a magazine during that whole Pluto wrangle, that due to the circumstances, no matter what you do to our moon, it will become spherical again. Either it collapses under its own gravity or something about it rotating around the Earth and therefore getting pulled by the Earth's gravity equally at each angle. I don't remember which. But there you go. Part of SA2 that makes sense.

Yeah, but wouldn't it take, like, a few thousand years? Couple million, maybe? As I have read in books, our moon was formed by a meteor hitting Earth, and floating debris gradually being "balled up" into it's familiar shape by Earth's gravity. Which, as I have read in books, took fucking ages, and not, like, two years or whatever.