What can save the Sonic series?

Tsuyoshi-kun · Post by **Tsuyoshi-kun** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:35 pm

I think they should get rid of the damn ranking system. Also, make it so that dying doesn't making you lose all your points, but gives you the amount of points you had when you hit a point marker when you do lose a life. That's what the 16-bit Sonic games did (then again, I rarely died in the earlier ones).

Also, get rid of shitty characters like the Heroes version of Charmy and Amy. She's obnoxious....just kill her off already.

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:11 pm

Popcorn wrote:I completely agree with this. Have you heard that in MGS3, you can 'heal' Snake by not playing the game for a few days?

Well, that's a surefire way to get people to play the game...

CE · Post by CE » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:43 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:Giving the player(s) commands that aren't handled within the context of the game is sloppy design, and regardless of how you define "streamlined," I don't consider sloppy design to have any place in that definition. The entire basis of Pac-Man VS centers around this "swap controllers" thing, which is ultimately just a suggestion.

But the swap of controls is handled within the game -- the points move and the ghosts change color. Or are you refering to the actual physical act of changing controllers? I agree that was clunky, but only due to the controller cords getting all tangled up. I mentioned WaveBirds because I viewed them as removing what I percieve as the biggest problem in PacMan VS.

It is my hope that the Nintendo Revolution only uses wireless controlers (or DS's), allowing for easy 8+ player games. Viva la Saturn Bomberman!

daytonafathead · Post by **daytonafathead** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:55 pm

Umm...greatest idea ever. But, first let's look at Super Smash Bros. Melee. Great game. Took me a while to like it only because my brother and his little friend would play it all the time! Anyway, sales were amazing. And the wierd thing is, it was in 2D. It had 3D frames in a 2D scrolling world!

2D's coming back, like disco. But it has to be rendered 3D. That way you can please the little pansy 11-year-olds who liked Sonic Heroes's graphics and the original hardcore Sonic gamers, such as us. Keep up with the times, but please us too. End transmision

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:25 pm

Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:I think they should get rid of the damn ranking system.

Why? It takes away nothing but adds a whole new dimension to how you play and tons of replay value (in SA2 anyway).

Maybe get rid of the "unlockables" that require you to do insane stuff, like Green Hill in SA2, but not the ranking system itself. The ranking system is sound, if anything it should be expanded upon.

Sonic is essentially about keeping a good flow, maintain a high speed, avoid getting stuck or damaged, rack up as many points as you can along the way and do it all in style. That's what the focus should be on. That kind of gameplay and a strong ranking/scoring system should go hand in hand.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:51 pm

Crazy Penguin wrote:Maybe get rid of the "unlockables" that require you to do insane stuff,

I say keep the unlockables, just don't have the insane requirements for them.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:59 pm

Sonic is essentially about keeping a good flow, maintain a high speed, avoid getting stuck or damaged, rack up as many points as you can along the way and do it all in style. That's what the focus should be on. That kind of gameplay and a strong ranking/scoring system should go hand in hand

Sonic + Viewtiful Joe + NiGHTs?

Speaking of which, if ANY videogame character actually DESEREVED bullet-time, it's Sonic. He moves at the damn speed of sound. From his perspective, the rest of the world has to constantly look like it's in slow-motion.

Spazz · Post by **Spazz** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:02 pm

Zeta wrote:Sonic + Viewtiful Joe + NiGHTs?

Sounds like a great formula, I wonder how Sonic in Mach Speed would work.

Zeta wrote:Speaking of which, if ANY videogame character actually DESEREVED bullet-time, it's Sonic. He moves at the damn speed of sound. From his perspective, the rest of the world has to constantly look like it's in slow-motion.

Sonic DS (Tech Demo?)

Post by **G.Silver** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:14 pm

I think they should get rid of the damn ranking system.

Seconding CP here..

I think the ranking system was one of SA2's best qualities. Some of us will remember how I didn't think so highly of SA2 at all initially, but the ranking system (primarily due to the Sonic's chaining ability between grinds) gave me something interesting to work with now that they'd crippled all the moves I enjoyed from the first SA. Sonic Heroes cleaned up the grinding (hoping from rail to rail is much more reliable) but at the same time ruined it because it's not worth anything anymore. Even though SA2 was nothing compared to JSR in terms of grinding surfaces, they were scattered around making the levels more interesting. In Heroes, you're either in a grinding section or you aren't, there's no creativity or thought in trying to put together combos or finding surfaces to grind on alongside the main path.

I thought for sure, that with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 as guides, via some sort of game design-trangulation there was absolutely no way that Sonic Team could miss with their third 3D Sonic game, but somehow they managed to exceed everyone's expectations and take several steps to far in the wrong direction.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:19 pm

Sonic is essentially about keeping a good flow, maintain a high speed, avoid getting stuck or damaged, rack up as many points as you can along the way and do it all in style. That's what the focus should be on.

I completely disagree with that. What you've described is Sonic Adventure 2, which I believe most of us will agree was the turning point down the path to decline.

Precision is what killed the Sonic formula. You can have a "flow" without imposing the kind of strict requirements that Sonic Adventure 2 and to a certain extent, Sonic Heroes does. If anything, the dynamics need to be loosened up, alot.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:39 pm

Definately. The game needs to be less limiting. I'm not saying that Sonic should be running around Mario64-styled 3-D worlds full of exploration - but giving us some freaking breathing room and some interesting detours is a hell of a lot better than Sonic Heroes' "Go this way or fall to your death".

CE · Post by CE » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:54 pm

I always thought that what killed Sonic Adventure 2 was the lack of Sonic. Sure Sonic Adventure 1 had four non-Sonic play styles (I consider Tails to play very much like Sonic), but they totaled less than half of the actual game. Sonic Adventure 2 was a full 2/3rds non-Sonic.

Penny Arcade was right, it should have been called Tails' and Knuckles' Shitty Adventure.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:10 pm

Well, lack of focus was one of the major problems with SA2, probably the most significant, but even if you'd strip it down to the Sonic/Shadow stages, the overall design sense of "do this or die" felt extremely stifling compared to the earlier games. The precision thing is not inherently bad, and in some games it works wonderfully, but it's definitely not what I want from Sonic.

You could still award points or whatever for smooth tricks, but it shouldn't be the focus.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:14 pm

I didn't mind the Knuckles and Rouge stages. It's the shooting stages I hated. Especially when playing as Tails.

I could at least enjoy the Eggman stages because "Hey, the gameplay sucks and is out of place. But I'm Eggman in a robot blowing the shit out of the millitary. If it was fun to play, it would be everything I wanted in a game in which you played as a supervillain".

The Tails stages just flat-out sucked. It made me wonder if Tails had somehow become horribly crippled in a plane crash - thus explaining why he didn't use his you know - superpowers.

And while the Shadow stages were good, it just sucks so much that Sonic got like - 6 stages out of an entire fucking game.

But what was there was very good. And I think, better than the Sonic stages in SA1.

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:57 pm

I disagree. The Sonic stages went downhill in SA2. They became more linear and all shared about the same layout: some random downhill highway suspended above a pit. It was like playing Speed Highway four times with different skins. Crazy Gadget and Final Rush were the only really good levels.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:18 pm

I agree that there was less variety, but what was there was good - if a little lacking. I'm willing to chalk up the lack of variety on so much crap and effort going into the other character's stages.

There are a couple of significant stages in SA1 that just rub me the wrong way. Red Mountain, for instance. And the damn icicle parts of Ice Cap just plain ticked me off. The Lost World would've been great if it had been just a little shorter.

I think that Emerald Coast, Sky Deck, Windy Valley, and the "Daybreak" part of Speed Highway are some of the more amazing moments in SA1. They managed to have high-speed action and a couple of pit-deaths without everything feeling completely forced.

And City Escape was pretty much the best stage in SA2, in my opinion. Too bad it came way too early.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:34 pm

I thought Lost World would be even better if it were longer.

I don't think I've ever played a platformer stage that I've considered "too long."

chriscaffee · Post by **chriscaffee** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:06 am

I usually finish the first two parts of Ice Cap within thirty seconds due to the light-speed dash glitch. And Red Mountain is awesome. As is Lost World. The entire stage is just fucking beautiful and it intelligently implements puzzles that can still be conquered while moving at fifty miles per hour.

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:48 am

Amen.

My gripe with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 wasn't about gameplay in general, it was--and this shouldn't come as a surprise--Chao Adventure and Chao Adventure 2. Don't get me wrong--the idea of a VMU was a great idea in my opinion. Sonic Team just put WAY too much emphasis on it. Also, battery life for these things was anywhere from slim to none. Play for two hours, go out, buy another lithium battery, play for two more hours, buy some more lithium batteries...that's why I never got all 180 Emblems on the DC version.

The Chao problem is especially noticeable with SA2 because of so many problems, but they fixed all that in SA2B, so I normally don't complain about it anymore, but I only got a Dreamcast for SA1 and SA2, so fuck.

Tsuyoshi-kun · Post by **Tsuyoshi-kun** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:31 am

The Doc wrote:Amen.

My gripe with Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 wasn't about gameplay in general, it was--and this shouldn't come as a surprise--Chao Adventure and Chao Adventure 2. Don't get me wrong--the idea of a VMU was a great idea in my opinion. Sonic Team just put WAY too much emphasis on it. Also, battery life for these things was anywhere from slim to none. Play for two hours, go out, buy another lithium battery, play for two more hours, buy some more lithium batteries...that's why I never got all 180 Emblems on the DC version.

My brother got all the emblems in Sonic Advneture 2 without Chao Adventure 2.

The original version of Sonic Adventure, however, is damn impossible to get the emblems in without online capabilities or Chao Advneture. The Gamecube version was a joke...you don't even have to raise all your Chao's stats to level 50 to get all of the emblems.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:09 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:
Sonic is essentially about keeping a good flow, maintain a high speed, avoid getting stuck or damaged, rack up as many points as you can along the way and do it all in style. That's what the focus should be on.
I completely disagree with that. What you've described is Sonic Adventure 2, which I believe most of us will agree was the turning point down the path to decline.

Precision is what killed the Sonic formula. You can have a "flow" without imposing the kind of strict requirements that Sonic Adventure 2 and to a certain extent, Sonic Heroes does. If anything, the dynamics need to be loosened up, alot.

I actually agree with you to some extent here, whilst still standing by what I said previously.

Sonic Adventure 2 was too restrictive in its mechanics and level design. This didn't aid the ranking system, it took away from it greatly because there was little choice or creativity in it, it essentially made it a linear obstacle course when it could've been so much more.

It's entirely possible to have a sense of flow and rhythm within a game without forcing tight restrictions upon the player. The player should have to create their own flow and "tricks".

The key is in not making it compulsary, make it available but don't penalise players who don't want to play the game that way. SA2 and Sonic Heroes did penalise with long rail sections above bottomless pits and the like, but they didn't have to, it was just poorly thought out design principles. The player should by all means be allowed to just play through the levels as freely as in the Mega Drive games, or even just explore and check out the scenery.

The levels should be made as versatile as possible. Conversely the character controls should be kept relatively simple and streamlined.

PRV · Post by **PRV** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:48 am

Having read the last few posts, and having fallen foul of bottomless pits more times than the average player, I think I have to agree there. Bottomless pits as an obstacle are okay, I guess, although it still seems like a bit of cheap way to die. Bottomless pits lining the course because the designers couldn't think of something better to stick there are really annoying, though. It's amazing how many ways you can find to die even in Emerald Coast if you have a poor sense of where exactly you want to go. As for Rail Canyon in SH... erk.

Kishi · Post by **Kishi** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:08 pm

One of the reasons I really appreciated Sonic during the Genesis era was because of the general lack of bottomless pits. "Mario has pits, Sonic has spikes," I thought, and that was cool.

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:09 pm

Well, there was that unescapable pit of spikes in Mystic Caves in Sonic 2. That stupid thing took more lives from me than any pit or spike ever.

The Doc · Post by **The Doc** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:00 pm

Oh...what the HELL was the point of that thing? I mean, I know Sonic Team didn't exactly LIKE their fans, but what sadist thought up the Spike Pit of Imminent Doom, Destruction, and Death in Mystic Caves anyway? If I ever meet him, I'm stabbing him in the neck with a well-sharpened #2 pencil.