From Mii to Mii Friends

Post by **Esrever** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:47 pm

Indeed. Twilight Princess really works because all of the new elements it adds -- and it does add a lot, really -- all integrate very well with the "classic" formula. The new items, the new dungeon concepts, the entire wolf dynamic... they're all things that I am really enjoying.

I just wish the game didn't take so long to get to the new stuff. My one biggest complaint about Twilight Princess is that the first three dungeons are just too much of a retread of Ocarina. I realize that was probably intentional, and they did introduce some interesting new ideas to the basic formulas (like the magnet boots), but still... did we really need another forest temple, another fire temple, and another water temple, no matter how well designed they were? They stands out especially because the more unique temples are so incredibly awesome.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:06 pm

And if the resemblance to OOT's Hyrule is noticeable, I really don't want it to be backwards. Lake Hylia belongs on the left.

It's not just noticable, it's incredibly obvious. They've added a Shiekah village, a snowy mountain, a new village south of the Lost Woods, and expanded the size of everything dramatically - but it is essentially OOT's Hyrule on a larger scale with better graphics. Basically, they just took the Hyrule presented in OOT and added more to the north and south of the map. The only areas missing from TP that were in OoT are Lon Lon Ranch and the Kokiri areas.

I'd like to revisit Hyrule from the NES Zeldas, with more depth, someday. If you look at maps from Zelda I, Zelda II, OoT, and TP - you can even see how they connect a bit. Zelda I and Zelda II basically take place in areas North-East of Death Mountain from OoT and TP. So it now feels like almost all the Hyrules in the franchise are part of the same continent now, they just keep on moving the center of the government around.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:14 pm

My one biggest complaint about Twilight Princess is that the first three dungeons are just too much of a retread of Ocarina.

You think? I actually left off standing at the threshold of the 4th dungeon, so dungeons 1, 2, and 3 are all that I've been through and I still thought they were extremely well done. Outside of the obvious themes (forest, fire, water) I didn't think they mimicked any of the Ocarina temples too broadly. Anyway, the day I play a Zelda game without a proper water dungeon, I'll feel utterly betrayed.

What's that about minigames?

Some potential spoilers ahead:

There's a badass fishing game where you use the stick and nunchuck like a rod & reel (though you have to swap hands as soon as you cast), the requisite river rapids bow game (which would be a pain without the point-and-shoot Wii stick), a Panzer Dragoon flying game where you control the "dragon" with the wand (though I think it would've worked better if flight were controlled with the left stick while using the wand to shoot), and what I believe is the funnest sumo wrestling minigame I've ever played. There are other minigames besides, but those are the only ones where the wand makes a difference.

Choosing which version to play is really just a judgment call, because you'll be getting benefits and making concessions either way. Using the wand during combat it silly and counterintuitive and mirroring the game was a dubious decision (especially if you're into the continuity), but the wand enhances the bow mechanic so greatly it almost counterbalances the "wiggle-to-slash" nonsense plus you also get widescreen. (As far as I know, though, there's no technical reason why the Cube version couldn't also have included a widescreen mode.) I myself still consider it a GameCube game (that's obviously what it was designed for), but whichever version you play, make sure you do indeed play it.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:44 pm

The Hawkeye, a sniper scope attatchment to slowly aim the bow, is pretty unecesssary in the Wii version as it's so easy to aim you can hit even small targets from far away. There are also some Hookshot puzzles in the Sky Temple that would have been very frustrating with a control stick, I'd imagine.

Post by **Esrever** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:19 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:You think? I actually left off standing at the threshold of the 4th dungeon, so dungeons 1, 2, and 3 are all that I've been through and I still thought they were extremely well done. Outside of the obvious themes (forest, fire, water) I didn't think they mimicked any of the Ocarina temples too broadly.

Oh, they were incredibly well done, absolutely. I made it through them all and loved every minute of it, and I don't even really like most Zelda games. But man, just wait until you see how creative they get with the dungeon settings (and their respective items) that follow those three.

It probably wouldn't have been as noticeable if they hadn't clumped those three dungeons together successively. I mean, you know, even though they're reasonably different than Ocarina's they're still set in the same rough locations with the same races and so on... as opposed to being totally new and utterly weird shit like dungeon five is.

Rlan · Post by **Rlan** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:29 pm

Sky Temple was awesome, in my opinion. There have been some naysayers, but the weapon upgrade is awesome and the puzzles were a lot of fun.

I also really liked 4th Dungeon Boss Battle. That was a lot of fun.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:00 pm

Oh yeah, the 4th Dungeon boss battle was a blast. Who would've thought a skateboarding boss fight could work in a Zelda game so well?

Post by **Esrever** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:26 pm

I put a spoiler tag in your post, Zeta, just cause GG apparently hasn't gotten to that part yet and it's such an entertaining surprise!

Post by **Delphine** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:51 pm

I hate you people. I can't find a Wii anywhere that's not $400+ on some sketchy no-name website. I hate you ALL.

Post by **Green Gibbon!** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:54 pm

Also, I am deeply pleased that Link finally wears pants.

Post by **Segaholic2** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:58 pm

What, so you can imagine him taking them off? You big <i>gay</i>.

KitsuneDarkStalker · Post by **KitsuneDarkStalker** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:58 pm

Green Gibbon! wrote:Also, I am deeply pleased that Link finally wears pants.

Are you more deeply pleased because they are TIGHT pants?

Dash · Post by **Dash** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:40 am

I didn't mean to be the devils advocate and call the game bad in comparison to MM and WW. I recognize excellent craftmanship when I see it, and Twilight Princess is indeed better crafted than MM, WW, and probably even OOT(I chalk that up to the fact that it got more development time than the last 2 games combined!). It's excellent. My problem with the game is more what Eserver said: It took so long to get to the crazy new stuff.

I guess the problems stated by Zeta and GG!, while they are real ones, didn't bother me as much. I liked the stopgap mechanic of Majora's Mask because while I technically had all the time in the world it still provided a sense of urgency. People had daily routines and weren't perpetually in the same place. I liked that. As for Wind Waker, the sailing didn't bother me so much as I just really enjoyed finding new islands(I spent so long in Skies of Arcadia trying to find all the islands) no matter how long it took to get there, and I was also one of the saps who was entranced by the art style in motion.

Either way, I didn't mean to call anyone here closed-minded. I've just had to try and convince so many people to play these games it hurts. I suppose I've never considered there might be a reason for that.

I'm also sick of getting the "Are you fucking Gay?" look when I say I liked Wind Waker... I have vaild reasons!

Anyway, my favorite dungeon in TP had to be Yeto's Mansion. It wasn't the best gameplay-wise, but I liked the fact that it wasn't a dungeon at all! It seemed like it had a strange history to it... one that you weren't able to figure out because the pictures lying about were so freaking fuzzy. I guess it used to belong to some rich goat herders? Who lived in the mountains? And had cannons? It was some pretty funky stuff.

That's what happens in almost every game, though.

Yeah but there was such a lack of celebration in this one. I'm sure that was intended, it just felt odd.

Post by **Delphine** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:27 am

I finally found one. Now I can stop whinging.

I'm gonna add all you bitches, so you better add me:

0092 9258 2530 2278

edit: Except you, CE. I got the same error everyone else did.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:19 pm

You know what? Fuck Tingle. I want a Midna spinoff game. I've now decided she's the greatest fucking character in the entire series. Everything from Zant to Hyrule Castle is pure Midna awesomeness.

Shadow Hog · Post by **Shadow Hog** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:04 pm

Told you she was hot.

Post by **Crazy Penguin** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:25 pm

Did anyone else find Twilight Princess to be more than a little lacking in terms of sidequests and stuff to do in the villages?

Majora's Mask and The Wind Waker had excellent village areas in the form of Clock Town and Windfall Island. Both were very involving and full of characters with their own little stories and quests and side games. They were a welcome breather between the dungeons and added a layer of depth to the world and stories.

Twilight Princess started off well with Ordon Village, lots of character interaction, the goat herding mini games, target practice, bird calling, fishing etc. Then as soon as you're past that area there's little or no reason to return, save one or two short plot-driven trips. Kakariko Village is essentially just a road with a few subpar shops. It doesn't even look interesting, huge disappointment.

Castle Town had the unwelcome return of the fixed camera angles from Ocarina of Time (and it felt outdated back then too). Half of the fun of town areas is being able to have a proper look around, using the first person camera and discovering things. Too much of Castle Town felt false, you couldn't interact with most of the characters or enter many buildings, or buy anything from the market, even the bar was dead most of the time.

The fishing hole had a surprising amount to do in it, given what it is. The hidden tilting game in particular was a cute little reward for paying attention to your surroundings.

Oh, and who else noticed the "Tingle" character for this game? It took me a while to make the connection.

Grant · Post by **Grant** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:46 pm

I found TP to be lacking in quite a few aspects although most of that might stem from the fact I'm beginning to grow tired of the LttP formula. Somewhere around the Temple of Time and especially the long fetch quest afterward, I was pretty much ready for the game to be over (it seems like the developers felt the same way considering how quick the last two dungeons went after Sky Temple, although Zant was a really fun and clever boss).

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if the dungeons (or at least the dungeon puzzles) recieved a massive shake up. By this point, we know the drill and I feel like I sleep walked through a few of them. Light this torch, push this block, get this key, z-target the boss and use your new item. I mean, of course there were some really neat touches here and there: for instance, I liked the idea of the second half of the Temple of Time puzzle, if not the execution of it.

What I'd really like to see in the next Zelda is more meat between the dungeons. I dug the hell out of protecting the horse cart to Kakariko Village from Castle Town and was disappointed there weren't more things like that.

And yeah, like Crazy P said, more mini-games and further interactivity with the NPCs wouldn't hurt either.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:00 pm

This is the first Zelda game where I've completed all the sidequests and got all the hearts. Which seems suspicious to me. Usually I'm totally unable to do so because the necessary time and huge world make it daunting. All of the sidquests were just too short and easy in TP, and the towns were pretty boring.

The next Zelda definately needs more sidequests, and more towns.

Post by **Esrever** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:46 pm

Really? If the towns and sidequests and "character interaction" had played any larger a roll, I probably would have gotten bored and quit playing just like I did in windwaker. Quite frankly, the NPCs in past Zelda games -- with their tediously overwritten, overlong dialogue and borderline personalities -- have never been interesting enough to justify the amount of time they take up.

I found the Ordon Village sequence at the beginning of TP to be the most excruciating part of the entire game. Penguin, I'm amazed you got as much out of that sequence as you did! I can't even begin to imagine why anyone would want more of... whatever that was. ZZZZZ

Dash · Post by **Dash** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:16 pm

I'm with CP on Castle Town. In any game, I hate seeing doors I can't open. It's like some sadistic tease.

But yeah I would have really liked more character-based sidequests. I get that the focus was on the environment in this one and they did that well- There's pretty much a reward around every corner- but the environment is only half of making a living, breathing world. The characters that inhabit it are the other half to that challenge. You should be given a chance to care about them. Without characters to care about, you just have a satisfying diversion. Twilight Princess wasn't totally devoid of likeable characters*, but there could have been more for those who cared to seek it. I mean, it's totally fine if you don't care for the characters/think those side quests are boring... it'd just be there for the people who want it.

Speaking of which, was anyone else a bit sad about the band of characters from the bar showing up to help you outside Hyrule Castle, but then you don't ever see them again?

"Hey guys thanks for the help! Wanna help me fight Ganondorf?"

"Nah, we out."

"..."

*I guess one could argue that the lack of character interaction was intended to make Midna and Link seem "doomed to obscurity".

FlashTHD · Post by **FlashTHD** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:03 pm

Es is right - the one Zelda game i've played was the GBA port of LTTP, purely out of curiosity. I beat it and I haven't come back to it since. Almost everything about it save the dungeons is so repetitive and tedious I could barely stand it. After the first dungeon or so, it starts becoming more and more obnoxious to play. The worst thing about it for certain is the overworld track - it drove me bats the whole way through and it's got to be Kondo's worst composition ever.

But I know it's not this gameplay formula that's the problem; I happen to like Metroid. They're both basically the same thing (round up new gadgets and health/weapon upgrades as you adventure your way to the next boss), just played from a different perspective. I guess it's Metroid games being better/faster paced...and having better level design...and catchier music...and more focus on the task at hand...ect.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:29 pm

But I know it's not this gameplay formula that's the problem; I happen to like Metroid. They're both basically the same thing (round up new gadgets and health/weapon upgrades as you adventure your way to the next boss), just played from a different perspective. I guess it's Metroid games being better/faster paced...and having better level design...and catchier music...and more focus on the task at hand...ect.

The problem I always had with Metroid was that it didn't feel like you were in a living, breathing, compelling world so much as it felt you were in a set with the discarded props of a Ridley Scott movie.

Locit · Post by **Locit** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:40 am

Dash wrote:*I guess one could argue that the lack of character interaction was intended to make Midna and Link seem "doomed to obscurity".

Someone would have to wonder who got rid of the giant polygon around Hyrule Castle. If they ever actually noticed it in the first place.

I'm being pretty conservative with the spoiler tags.

Zeta · Post by **Zeta** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:30 am

It seems that quite a bit of people noticed Link's actions, but they weren't as viewed as important as previous or later Links. I suppose because a war or something didn't break out. The Gorons, the Ordonians, the Kakariko Villagers, the Zoras, and the Spirits all seemed to recognize your effors. However, from their point of view, all that really happened was:

* Some creepy bugs attacked them and everything when dark.
* The Zora Queen got killed.
* The Goron Chief got turned into a monster.
* People got locked out of Hyrule Castle for a month or so.

They seem to know that Link fixed this crap to the best of his ability, but seen through the eyes of the general populace? Most of this stuff wasn't too awful compared to what usually goes on every century in Hyrule. It was the Twili who are the ones who really suffered.

Also, I'm annoyed at how many people aren't getting the Gerudo = Twili thing just because no one out and out states it in the game when there are so many fucking hints throughout the game that this is the case. Everything Twili related is located in the deserted Gerudo desert, the Twili and the Gerudo have the exact same histories, and the leader of the Twili has all the facial features associated with the Gerudo. Their response? "Oh well, the Gerudo are hiding somewhere in the desert where you can't see them." Sure.