So . . . Mario Kart

[Zeta]

Probably not, considering Wario is at least in his 40's, while Mona is still in high school.

Mario and Peach. Enough said.

[DackAttac]

Wait, is there an age gap there?

[Zeta]

Peach looks late teens to me, and Mario looks mid-30's. But that's just how it appears to me.

[Sniffnoy]

It ain't just a matter of being better, it's being able to do something that puts you on a way higher tier of competition.

I don't get the overwhelming opposal of anything slightly competitive in this forum. Snaking is a more effective way of moving forward than simply holding A, but it comes with a drawback: If you mess up, it hurts a lot more. Its a high-risk, high-reward strategy that requires more skill than the low-risk strategy, which is significantly slower. How is that a broken mechanic?

No shit people are going to be on a "way higher tier of competition" if they put the time and effort in to learning the hardest skill in the game and put it to use in matches. People complaining that snaking is bad because they believe it was unintentional is one thing, but complaining that its bad because it rewards better players for their time and effort is just retarded.

Dude, I don't think you're reading what they're writing. The forum does seem to have an anti-competitive tendency, but they're complaining here about the game design, not what people do. I've never played Double Dash, so I'm going to have to speak about this purely in theoretical terms. ISTM the complaint is that it's a high-risk, high-reward technique that you have to use (and all the time) in order to be competitive. That last bit essentially is what "brokenness" is - no diversity of play at high levels. I don't think it's normally required that something be easy to use to be considered "broken", because if it's powerful enough, all the high-level players will learn how to use it properly, and you will get the same lack of diversity.

Let's also think about where high-risk/high-reward techniques belong. Expected value is not everything; swinginess, for one, matters a lot as well. High-variation strategies, I think, are most fun when you do are not going to use them often. E.g. situational answers and specialized counter-stragteies, fragile superweapons, desperate recovery gambits... good places for them. When you are forced to use one all the time to be competitive however, the result is frustrating, as much of the game reduces to "don't screw up or it's over". Of course, you could just use it less, but in this case, where snaking is so much better than not doing so, at a high enough level this is ultimately not a viable solution. (Again, isn't that just a way of stating that it's broken?)

Consider also what this does to the game. Ideally we want a gradient of skill from the lowest to the highest. Now, obviously this still exists; but it is no longer so evident in the game. Because at a certain point you have to start snaking, and because the technique is so high-risk, what you get is that for those in the middle - those who are beginning to learn it but cannot yet pull it off consistently - the game becomes "who manages to not screw up". Firstly, this isn't much of a game. Secondly, in such a case, individual games will seem like luck, and whoever wins will win by a lot. The result is that you have little effective way of gauging your opponents' skill except by playing many, many games against him, leaving you with little idea as to whether or not your victory was luck. Obviously this problem goes away once you and your oppoents are all at the point you can consistently snake, but I think that's an unreasonable requirement for the game to be fun (especially as many people might be driven away before they get to that point).

Of course, seeing as I don't actually know the game, and am just going based on what I've read here, my impressions of snaking may be wrong, but if I have it right, then what I've said above should follow, yes?

[FlashTHD]

I can remember several occasions where, despite the best efforts of me and one or two other(s) to trip up one snaker, the items - Mario Kart's universal equalizer - fail to stop the dude from smoking us with a big lead at the end. So yep. (Also, we're talking about Mario Kart DS :p) It's not quite the epidemic on wifi racing as you sort of paint it as, but (edit: well, uh, read next post.)

And a reminder Hybrid: you're defending a technique you've already admitted to sucking at.

[DackAttac]

If you have a game that lends itself to multiplayer fun, then you're gonna have people who play it competitively. And there will be people who learn how to do whatever techniques it takes to win. You can shake this by adding more and more techniques to master, but this frustrates the poor beginner, who just wants to get to the finish line without getting his ass blown apart, and will become irrelevant in however long it takes the competitive camp to figure it out. It's difficult to introduce enough advanced techniques to keep the advanced play interesting while keeping the basic tier fun for the neophytes.

So that said, I do see how competition can be enjoyable. I understand the allure of advanced, complex match-ups that are close because your opponent is at the same skill set you are. There's an amount of adrenaline as you see him behind you as the finish line approaches, and knowing that in that stretch, you can't make any mistakes. But when the whole game is like that, I'm sorry, it starts to get so competitive you have to be perfect, I'm out. Screw that noise; I'm not perfect. When there's no margin for any mistakes at all, the whole thing's lost any hint of character one could fathom. And the people say that there's something wrong with me, because it is fun; it is enjoyable. But when I goof up and lose, I laugh it off with the friends I'm playing with, because odds are it was pretty funny. When they goof up and lose, they throw their controller against the wall and throw some kind of tantrum like a spoiled six year old (with a more profoundly vulgar vocabulary). And what happens if they win this soulless, pulse-escalating match? They just boast, brag and belittle their opponent. Over a game. In order to do that, they must find the fun sacrificed from playing a game non-competitively to be more than made up for (and worth all the stress of the match) in getting to do so in winning.

I've played my fair share of video games. They're a lot of fun. I've also had opportunities to rub victory in people's face before. It's not even enjoyable. If I got more joy out of doing that than video games, which were designed to bring joy, I think I'd have to just blow my elitistly depraved brains out the back of my bratty little skull.

I've played Double Dash for a good long time and don't know what the fuck "snaking" is.

[The Iron Giant]

Peach looks late teens to me, and Mario looks mid-30's. But that's just how it appears to me.

That can't be, because in M&L 2 and YIDS, their shown to be close to the same age.

[Hybrid]

And a reminder Hybrid: you're defending a technique you've already admitted to sucking at.

...And? Yeah, I suck at snaking. I don't see how that is at all relevant to whether its a broken technique?

@Sniffoy: You seem to be getting confused between a "better technique" and a "broken technique". Being better than all your other options (which in this case is "just hold A") doesn't inherently break the gameplay. Pick any fighting game. I can guarantee you that attacking your opponent is generally a better strategy than not attacking your opponent. In fact, using your attacks on your opponent is so far superior to all your other options ("shield forever", "run away forever") that trying to employ these other strategies will probably cause you to lose!

That's the line of logic you're following. Just because Option A is leagues better than Option B doesn't make A broken. Your complaint about diversity is equally illogical; What's the alternative? Either everyone snakes or everyone just holds A. Neither is any more diverse than the other.

[Sniffnoy]

And a reminder Hybrid: you're defending a technique you've already admitted to sucking at.

...And? Yeah, I suck at snaking. I don't see how that is at all relevant to whether its a broken technique?

@Sniffoy: You seem to be getting confused between a "better technique" and a "broken technique". Being better than all your other options (which in this case is "just hold A") doesn't inherently break the gameplay. Pick any fighting game. I can guarantee you that attacking your opponent is generally a better strategy than not attacking your opponent. In fact, using your attacks on your opponent is so far superior to all your other options ("shield forever", "run away forever") that trying to employ these other strategies will probably cause you to lose!

That's the line of logic you're following. Just because Option A is leagues better than Option B doesn't make A broken. Your complaint about diversity is equally illogical; What's the alternative? Either everyone snakes or everyone just holds A. Neither is any more diverse than the other.

*shrug* Yeah, at this point I can't really say much of anything, not having any real familiarity with the game (other than that presumably it's a lot like other Mario Kart games). But I get the idea the usual here is to snake constantly? That's... kind of bad. Not broken... definitely too strong a word. But still bad. The problem here is the difference between "generally better", "strictly better", and "pretty much strictly better once you can pull it off consistently, which some people can actually do".

Your fighting game analogy doesn't work, though. Or... uh... maybe it does. Well, I don't think it does, I want to say "But if there was a character where you just used one move all the time, you'd call that move broken, no?", but since I'm not really familiar with the game beyond "it's a Mario Kart game", I'll just say it sounds like a pretty bad analogy.

I'm confused why you say my complaint about diversity is illogical, though... except that this is a racing game. So it's basically multiplayer solitaire anyway, and the items are basically random except for saving/using shells forward or backward and aiming the green ones. And it doesn't have F-Zero's random track generator. So I suppose it's really a bit silly to judge it in these terms in the first place.

...yeah, I'm just gonna shut up now. Still, I think I've put some good reasons why it's from what I know, probably bad for the game.

[Hybrid]

Snaking is the last option: "pretty much strictly better once you can pull it off consistently, which some people can actually do". Yet I don't see why that's broken, or even bad. Its hard as hell to do it properly, which I think justifies the fact that its better than the standard mode of travel; Nobody would bother learning the hardest technique in the game if it didn't offer them any sort of advantage.

Keep in mind that without snaking, Mario Kart simply cannot be played in "super serious tournament" format. Because take snaking away, and the game really does just boil down to who gets the best items at the right times. You could argue that that's the "spirit of the game", but it doesn't make for a balanced competitive game.

The fighting game analogy was kind of bad, so I'll rephrase it: If you have a Punch-Punch-Kick combo which does 10% of your opponent's life bar, and Punch-Kick-Punch combo which does 20%, the PKP combo is by far superior to the PPK combo assuming that both combos have the same amount of vulnerability. While doing the PPK combo might be easier (let's say you just tap A 3 times, while for PKP you tap A once, then B, then A), its overall less effective than the PKP in every way. This doesn't make the move broken, it just makes it better; Snaking is the same.

[Isuka]

Keep in mind that without snaking, Mario Kart simply cannot be played in "super serious tournament" format. Because take snaking away, and the game really does just boil down to who gets the best items at the right times. You could argue that that's the "spirit of the game", but it doesn't make for a balanced competitive game.

... So yeah, Mario Kart is serious fucking business, now you all know!

While there are other variables to take into consideration in a typical fighting game, luck generally isn't one of them, unlike Mario Kart's case. Do I really need to say that the game isn't "OMG COMPETITIVE!!" in the same way an equitable versus fighter is, that its main focus is towards "fun... until someone abuses the exploits"?
There's a reason why everyone claims SoulCalibur is almost perfect when it comes to competitive play and SCII is a piece of useless crap, and that's its exploits.

[Sniffnoy]

Because take snaking away, and the game really does just boil down to who gets the best items at the right times. You could argue that that's the "spirit of the game", but it doesn't make for a balanced competitive game.

...oh yeah, I'd kind of forgotten about that. :-/ I sort of assumed there was at least enough actual racing to make it worth it anyway? But I suppose the items eventually have a much larger effect...

Regarding the fighting game thing... eh, screw it. I'm not familiar enough with the game. I think I'm probably just misunderstanding how snaking is used.

[Hybrid]

... So yeah, Mario Kart is serious fucking business, now you all know!

Once again, someone feels its necessary to say that playing any game semi-seriously is a waste of time. Thank you, but I've read more or less this exact statement a couple of times already so I don't really know how you're contributing by posting it again?

Mario Kart will never be on the same level as a game like SC because of the inherent randomness of... well, everything. Snaking is the only technique which can compensate for time lost getting hit by Blue Shells and Bullet Bills, without snaking its all about the items and whoever gets the best ones usually win (not counting the person coming last who gets nothing but Blue Shells and Stars but never gets any benefit out of them. If there's a broken mechanic in Mario Kart, that is the one you should be complaining about).

[FlashTHD]

...oh yeah, I'd kind of forgotten about that. :-/ I sort of assumed there was at least enough actual racing to make it worth it anyway? But I suppose the items eventually have a much larger effect...

Regarding the fighting game thing... eh, screw it. I'm not familiar enough with the game. I think I'm probably just misunderstanding how snaking is used.

You prolly should back out man, cause you're being misled by a halfwit who knows not what he babbles about in a whole other way. To begin with, we weren't even talking about "super serial tourneyfag" format until he made it that way.

So you're aware: Snaking is using powerslide-boosts, a move that was made for better cornering, back and forth repeatedly down a straight stretch of track - essentially, doing it constantly. There's only one reason ingame to learn it, and that's if you insist on trying to beat the staff ghosts. (Hence my time attack saying.) Now, that ought to hopefully make it clear as day how much power it packs. I should also mention that wifi races are run at 100cc speed - slower means it's a little easier to chain boosts.

There's plenty of room for racing skill in Mario Kart, I assure you. There aren't an outstanding number of techniques but course designs generally make up for it. And the items are largely about luck, yes, but they're engineered to maintain balance, not turn the entire thing into a mindless dice roll. But, bottom line: snaking to win is, as been repeated ad infintum now, largely about spamming one trick and making the whole race about it whether you want to be that cheesy or not.

Snaking is the only technique which can compensate for time lost getting hit by Blue Shells and Bullet Bills, without snaking its all about the items and whoever gets the best ones usually win (not counting the person coming last who gets nothing but Blue Shells and Stars but never gets any benefit out of them. If there's a broken mechanic in Mario Kart, that is the one you should be complaining about).

And this...shows it ain't just snaking you suck at.

At any rate, i've had my fill of talking to a wall. Anyone who knows MKDS well can keep at Hybrid, if you don't mind shitting up the thread even further.

edit: toned down slightly, but this discussion's pushing absurd

[Isuka]

Hey, I don't see the need for such trash-talking aimed at Hybrid, he's making his point. It's only that I happen to not fully agree with it, that's all.

For instance, the blue shells may be looked upon as a exploitable, broken mechanic, but it'll only affect negatively the player who happens to be in first place, who could be anyone. All the while snaking'll give an arguably unfair edge to a single, particular player who happens to dominate it, basically negating anything else the other players may try to keep the pace.

[Hybrid]

Hey, FlashTHD. Good job on proving you know... virtually nothing about the subject.

To begin with, we weren't even talking about "super serial tourneyfag" format until he made it that way.

No, we were talking about snaking... Which is only really practiced by these so-called "super serial tourneyfags". Good one!

There's plenty of room for racing skill in Mario Kart, I assure you. There aren't an outstanding number of techniques but course designs generally make up for it. And the items are largely about luck, yes, but they're engineered to maintain balance, not turn the entire thing into a mindless dice roll.

Have you ever played Mario Kart before? No, I'm really asking you this. "Racing skill" in Mario Kart essentially boils down to holding A, pressing left and right to turn, and hoping you get good items when you need them. Seriously, that's it. And please tell me how the fourth-place player getting a Blue Shell and causing the second-place player to win is "balance"? Hey, my four-second lead that I held for the whole race was negated because player four is really, really bad! Thank you, "engineered to maintain balance" item system!

How is it "not a dice roll", again? The player in last might get a star or a bullet bill: The player in first is unaffected and wins. Or he might get a Blue Shell: The player in first gets nailed and comes second. Isn't that, like... the definition of a dice roll?

And this...shows it ain't just snaking you suck at.

And this shows you still don't quite grasp the concept of why snaking makes the game more "balanced". If you get hit by a Blue Shell, you're going to suffer tremendous lag regardless of whether you snake or not. Without snaking, you've also got to get the engine revving and slowly reach top speed again, accentuating the cost of being hit. With snaking you can hit top+ speed as soon as you've got control again, which makes getting hit with the item less likely to completely screw you over.

Seriously, if your argument amounts to "hybrid is a half-wit snaking is boring and this topic is shitty i bet he just sucks" then maybe you should consider just not posting at all?

[G.Silver]

Racing games are not interesting in a serious competitive environment. That's all there is to it. Even without "snaking" you are still just completing a wholly linear course the fastest way possible, and guess what? Unless you discover some breakthrough new technique or shortcut, there is only one fastest way, and if that fastest way involves snaking, then so be it. I will guarantee you that if you take the technique away, competitive Mario Kart would be just as dull, in fact possibly moreso, because you've taken away a skill layer, players will simply not be pushing as hard as they otherwise could.

I don't think snaking--except at the very highest levels of play--really gives a person a terribly unfair edge either, certainly not any more of an edge that just being more experienced at it does.

Hey, my four-second lead that I held for the whole race was negated because player four is really, really bad! Thank you, "engineered to maintain balance" item system!

The blue shell really does have no business in a "serious" race but it's there so you just have to deal with it. I like to share it with my friend in 2nd (or even 3rd) place. Instead of losing those 4 seconds, make sure someone else loses them too!

[Hybrid]

Yeah, I'm not trying to say Mario Kart is really seriously competitive with or without snaking (outside of Time Attack). Just that snaking isn't a "broken" or even "bad" technique, and is in fact necessary if you're trying to play the game in any way other than the usual light-hearted manner.

[Esrever]

I put snaking in the same category as the "infinite spin" in Tetris DS. Yes, it's in there; yes, it's fair to use; yes, it should be removed in future games. I just don't think physical stamina should be a factor in games controlled by button-pushing... I like my "competitive play" to come from strategy, not the ability to mash the same button (or button sequence) over and over and over without hurting my thumbs.

[G.Silver]

You might call that sensation in your thumbs "pain," I call it "victory!"

I think a better thing to do would be to increase its ease of use (or make it harder to use in straight stretches), because there's still a lot of strategy in knowing where to use it, and at times you want it to come out quickly (the straightaways where snaking "abuses" it) and other times you want to ride it out longer. Powering around corners like that is half the fun of the game!

[Crazy Penguin]

To try and avoid a snaking bitchfest, here are some rumors/potential spoilers.

Two new characters are said to be making their debut in this game. Supposedly they are Wario and Waluigi's girlfriends. Yes, more "Wa's"!

Wapeach and Wadaisy?

Other rumored characters are Metal Mario, Dixie Kong, and the long-awaited return of Wart (from SMB2/Doki Doki Panic).

Wart would be cool. Next they need to bring back Tatanga.

[P.P.A.]

I have never played MKDS online (due to the lack of a Wi-Fi adapter), so I don't even know if what I do actually is snaking and how good I am at it. I do constantly boost left and right along straights and it's been enough to beat most of the staff ghosts so far. However, I didn't learn this technique to dominate other players online. I simply learned it because it's fun to do and it makes me go faster. Both normally are the primary objectives of a racing game, aren't they?
Now, while I can imagine it to be frustrating for inexperienced players to lose against others who have mastered this practise, I still don't see why it should be entirely removed then. It's easy to learn (for me at least) and gives players who are already used to the game a nice opportunity to increase their speed. All you'd have to do is implement a feature for online games that classifies players into different ranks, maybe observing if they snake or not (by using a miniboost counter or something like that) and mark them with symbols or groups and voilá, problem solved. People unwilling or unable to learn snaking can choose to only play others of their likes or challenge snakers while the latter still can have fun playing against each others (which is also more of a challenge then).
Removing it entirely is a very bad choice in my opinion. Even since Mario Kart DS, I actually have less fun playing previous Mario Karts without snaking as it takes away some additional speed and depth.

[DackAttac]

I do constantly boost left and right along straights and it's been enough to beat most of the staff ghosts so far.

According to some haphazard research I did after my last post, this is exactly what snaking is. I feel like a jackass now since it's not so far removed from what I do (I don't really 'snake' all the time, but I will boost on anything vaguely resembling a corner.)

I suppose what it effectively does is separate people into different tiers, those who do it and those who don't. It's just kind of a shame that there's no real way to keep them separated in online play.

[G.Silver]

That's what I've been assuming it is. In F-Zero GX, snaking really was a bit of an exploit, where certain ships can move faster by combining their forward momentum and lateral turning to increase speed and acceleration beyond what is normal. It's very difficult and very unlikely that it was intentionally designed, and many players say that despite being as hard a game as it is, all the objectives in the game can be accomplished without it. In Mario Kart that should be impossible since there is no lateral movement.

[Zeta]

Nintendo Power says 18 playable racers plus a Mii. Famitsu says 24 playable characters plus a Mii.
12 characters per race.

In case anyone was interested, only the Special Cup tracks are currently missing:

32 tracks. 18 new. 18 old. So far, only the Special Cup tracks are unknown. Old tracks may have extra ramps and such added for more tricks.

New Tracks:
* Luigi Circuit
* Mario Circuit
* Moo Moo Meadow
* Wario Goldmine
* Coconut Mall
* DK Summit
* Mushroom Gorge
* Toad's Factory
* Daisy Circuit
* Koopa Cape
* Vermilion Woods
* Roaring Volcano

Classic Tracks:
* SNES Mario Circuit 3
* SNES Ghost Valley 2
* N64 Bowser's Castle
* N64 Sherbert Land
* N64 Mario Raceway
* GBA Shy Guy Beach
* GC Waluigi Stadium
* GC Peach Beach
* DS Mario Circuit
* DS Peach's Garden
* DS Delfino Square
* DS Yoshi Falls