Hate mail?

[plasticwingsband]

Do not even try to question Del's authority, Grant. She has many more posts than you do.

[Grant]

Why?

Just because some literature is the equivalent of complete and utter crap doesn't mean that it's not literature.

Literature, by definition (according to Webster), is "imaginative or creative writing, especially of recognized artistic value." In other words, it's similar to the word "art." It's absolutely subjective, but sometimes there's just no question. Would you call Picasso's work art? Sure, even if you didn't necessairly like it. Now, how about Rob Liefield's? I sure wouldn't call it art. Certainly not true art. The difference being that Picasso was expressing himself and Liefield was simply drawing superheroes.

It's the same with fanfics. There's no real expression in them. People simply use someone else's characters to play with, as if they were action figures. Ernest Hemingway, Alexandre Dumas, fuckin' Shakespeare wrote literature. Johnny Cockenmauf, author of "The Sonikku Ultimate Death Egg Trilogy: Shadow Stalks NYC chapter XXV," did not.

[Grant]

Do not even try to question Del's authority, Grant. She has many more posts than you do.

This is true. I must submit myself to her 437 post cock now.

[Delphine]

It's the same with fanfics. There's no real expression in them.

Ah. You're one of those people. Just wondering.

[Zeta]

It's the same with fanfics. There's no real expression in them. People simply use someone else's characters to play with, as if they were action figures. Ernest Hemingway, Alexandre Dumas, fuckin' Shakespeare wrote literature. Johnny Cockenmauf, author of "The Sonikku Ultimate Death Egg Trilogy: Shadow Stalks NYC chapter XXV," did not.

While I agree most fanfiction is tripe, there's always that 4% margin of authors who manage to do something better with the characters than the creator. Trust me, it's out there. It's just rarely worth the effort of sorting through all the manure while looking for the one cow patty made out of solid gold

I'd just like to point out that Shakespear was just playing with other people's characters as if they were action figures, too. Julius Ceasar certainly wasn't some new character that Shakespear came up with. Neither was Henry VIII. And William certainly didn't come up with Titania or Oberon.

Writing isn't instantly bad just becuase you use characters that aren't original creations. It's not what you use, it's how you use it. If you can take someone else's characters and show an interesting new side to them that is at the same time, original, while not being false to the integrity of the fandom - you've done something pretty damn special and difficult.

And besides "Sonikku Ultimate Death Egg Trilogy: Shadow Stalks NYC chapter XXV" isn't worse than the plot of Sonic Heroes. An "official" plot isn't better than fanfiction just because it's produced by the owner of the property and characters. In recent years, it's the opposite way around.

Saying that all fanfiction is like "Super Sonic killzorxr pe0pl3 and h4s s3xx0rs w/ Amy" is like saying "Dragonball Z sucks. Dragonball Z is an animated television show, therefore, all animation sucks".

[Green Gibbon!]

The difference being that Picasso was expressing himself and Liefield was simply drawing superheroes.

What if Rob Liefield is expressing himself by drawing superheroes?

(I have no idea who Rob Liefield is.)

[Zeta]

Exactly, Gibbs. It's all subjective. You can't say that an artist is unable to express themselves by drawing superheroes or writing fanfics. As long as you're doing something creative, that's art.

Of course, the value of each piece of art is up for serious debate - but again, that's entirely subjective. There are pieces of art hanging up in museums, and to this day I say "That doesn't look like art. They splashed some paint around and are telling people it's too complicated for the average person to understand". But I'm not going to run around saying that it's a piece of trash with NO value whatsoever. There could be someone deeply moved by it, for all I know.

And that's what you try to do with art. Connect to people. Talk to them. Express yourself indirectly. Reach out.

And if you want to do that by writing a story about how Sonic, Seven of Nine, and Elijah Wood have an orgy in a giant bowl of pudding - who is anyone to say that you're wrong to do it?

If Herman Melville had somehow went forward in time, and Moby Dick became a Free Willy/PoTC fanfiction in which the white sperm whale was changed to a floppy-finned orca, and Captain Ahab was changed to Jack Sparrow - would that make it any less a piece of literature? Honestly?

[Radrappy]

I dont really like fanfics that much either. . . . .I hate reading stuff that long on my comp, and any idiot can use someone elses characters. I think fanfics are just written by lazy people looking for easy glory, or hardcore fans. Now what i really respect are fan comics and fan mangas! If done well those can be amazing!!

[Esrever]

The difference being that Picasso was expressing himself and Liefield was simply drawing superheroes.

What if Rob Liefield is expressing himself by drawing superheroes?

(I have no idea who Rob Liefield is.)

I agree too. There's a difference between expressing something assinine and expressing nothing.

"Art" isn't a qualitative term, it's a declaration of intent. The difference between music and noise is that music is deliberate effort to communicate ideas through sound, whereas noise is an incidental byproduct of attempting to do something unrelated. The same applies to all art in general.

You can critique the quality of the ideas and the quality of their delivery. But just because Liefield communicates stupid ideas with poorly drawn images doesn't mean he isn't making art. He's just making bad art.

[Delphine]

Nice! I got annoyed at having this argument <i>again</i> and so decided not to have it, and then everyone else made my points for me! You guys rock! *huggles*

[WhoopA]

D'ah! Let go! Let go!

[Delphine]

D'ah! Let go! Let go!

It's not <i>for</i> you.

[Green Gibbon!]

It's not for you.

With all that flab, innocent bystanders are bound to be caught in the torrent.

[Pepperidge]

Hey Gibs, her post count is higher than yours.

[Delphine]

It's not for you.

With all that flab, innocent bystanders are bound to be caught in the torrent.

I suppose it's better than getting stuck up in that gargantuan nose of yours.

[-wyvern]

I wish you had posted your real pictures in that thread ages ago...

[Light Speed]

Well then these insults might not have any merit. It is much more fun this way, we can use our imaginations.

[Green Gibbon!]

No, my nose really is pretty big... I have to be careful around midgets or I accidentally breathe them in.

[Popcorn]

Do you have incredible powers of super-scent?

[Crazy Penguin]

Rob Liefeld sucks.

[Neo Yi]

Fanfic inspires vitriol at a highly alarming rate. You could be writing the best piece of literature ever thought up and you'll still get death threats. It's great.

I know, especially when they have absolutely no reason to back up their flames of "OMG, it Sux!!111!111". Gosh, how I love the world.

As for the fanfic being literature or not, I'm in my "lazy stage"...again, so I don't wanna bother giving my piece of it.
~Neo

[Ngangbius]

I dont really like fanfics that much either. . . . .I hate reading stuff that long on my comp, and any idiot can use someone elses characters.

But very few people can create an excellent story with dead-on characterization based on those pre-existing characters.

I think fanfics are just written by lazy people looking for easy glory, or hardcore fans. Now what i really respect are fan comics and fan mangas! If done well those can be amazing!!

<sarcastic mimicry>I think fancomics/manga are created by talentless and unimaginative people looking for easy glory, or hardcore fans. Any fool can create a comic that uses someone else characters. Just look at the number of sprite-based comics that plague the Sonic and Megaman fanbase! And the internet proves that you don't need a real good sense of art talent and direction to create a fan-based manga. Why, I'll bet most of that crap lies in that Deviantart site or Keenspace. Plus, I hate waiting for pictures that big to load on my computer, lol.

Thus with my brilliant deduction skills, I conclude that all fancomics/manga sucks ass!</sarcastic mimicry>

[Grant]

While I agree most fanfiction is tripe, there's always that 4% margin of authors who manage to do something better with the characters than the creator.

Is that really saying much? I mean, really?

Especially if we're talking about video game character fan fiction.

Writing isn't instantly bad just becuase you use characters that aren't original creations.

I never said that. For example, I love Brian Michael Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man. I'd venture to say that it is a huge improvement on the original comics. I still wouldn't call it true art or even real literature.

And besides "Sonikku Ultimate Death Egg Trilogy: Shadow Stalks NYC chapter XXV" isn't worse than the plot of Sonic Heroes. An "official" plot isn't better than fanfiction just because it's produced by the owner of the property and characters.

Again, I didn't say that and I didn't mean to imply it. Whether it's "official" or not has nothing to do with quality. Just because the Sonikku fanfic is better than the story for Sonic Heroes certainly does not make it "good". If my shit smells better than yours, that doesn't mean it's a good smell, necessairly.

Of course, the value of each piece of art is up for serious debate - but again, that's entirely subjective. There are pieces of art hanging up in museums, and to this day I say "That doesn't look like art. They splashed some paint around and are telling people it's too complicated for the average person to understand". But I'm not going to run around saying that it's a piece of trash with NO value whatsoever. There could be someone deeply moved by it, for all I know.

You're almost there. It is all absolutely subjective. To the author, "Sonikku Fux0rz Amy Part III" is literature; just like to Delphine, her fanfic about her favorite anime characters is literature or perhaps even art. Then again, I know that I consider some of the Beatles' work to be art and she doesn't. It simply depends on who it is. Maybe someone out there considers 50 Cent or Ja Rule an artist. I don't know.

If all we're doing is debating the definition of the word, then yes, in the loosest term of the word, anything created is art in some way, I suppose. However, many people (and I'm one) hold the word to a higher value. I mean, in the loosest use of the word, I can cook. In reality, I can make a pop-tart successfully and little else.

The difference between music and noise is that music is deliberate effort to communicate ideas through sound, whereas noise is an incidental byproduct of attempting to do something unrelated

What if birds chirping is music to my ears? Or a bunch of cars honking? Or rain hitting the rooftop? It's not a deliberate effort to communicate an idea through sound, but I hear it as music because of the way I choose to listen.

He's just making bad art.

Then it isn't true art. It isn't to me, anyway. I would consider "bad art" to be an oxymoron.

I guess we need to understand that there is more than one definition for this word. One definition is that anything created is art and the other uses the word as a means of praise. This isn't to say I haven't ever used the former use of the word; there's nothing wrong with it. I mean, I'd say Liefield creates art, but only for lack of a better word. I still don't consider it true art.

Does that mean achieving true art in the comic field is impossible? Or is real literature impossible to make as a fan fiction? No. It isn't the medium's fault. But I have yet to find any that I would consider real art or literature. Mainly, I think it's because most brilliant artists or writers are above these things.

The point is, it's all subjective. I think calling something art or literature is like calling something beautiful. I consider my girlfriend beautiful. Zeta probably wouldn't (at least, not in the same way I would). But then, even the definition of any of these words is how you interpret them.

[Segaholic2]

Your post contradicts everything I believe because the words you use mean different things to me. Therefore, I will ignore everything you just said because you are wrong.</sarcastic point>

[Grant]

If by "ignor[ing] everything you just said" you mean "addressed every point", then yes, I did just that.