Samus in Ninja Gaiden

[Esrever]

It drives her to try and shut down the frickin' Space Pirates, man!

Maybe you just find it hard to relate to the story because your parents weren't killed by Space Pirates.

[Radrappy]

but the space pirates are a nebulous evil force with no goal themselves! I just don't know why people are doing things! I liked the manga because it humanized samus and cleared up a few things. But even the manga failed to address who the space pirates are and why they're led by a giant purple pterodactyl!

[G.Silver]

And this is what was so wrong with the franchise to begin with. It wants to be epic, but there are no stakes. No emotional investment in anything that's happening. No motivations, no nothing. That might suit a franchise like Mario, but for a scifi action series, you don't get off so easy.

I don't know what they're doing in Other M yet, and I really don't know what was going on in Prime, but I don't think "epic" was really what Metroid is about, at least not historically. We know Samus is "famous" as a bounty hunter, but not to what extent she's appreciated, or how she's compensated for her work, or anything really. That lonely quality keeps Metroid feeling very small and personal, and this is often what people say about those games, that exploring and discovering things make them feel like they've found something small and special that belongs to them. Not epic.

But really, there are stakes. At the end of Metroid II, we see Samus doesn't really feel like driving a dangerous alien race to extinction after all. That's something to her character right there, and then in Super Metroid we see the consequences of that choice, the Space Pirates steal the baby Metroid, and Samus takes responsibility for the situation. Aside from just being the right thing to do, if Samus doesn't stop the Space Pirates it's not a huge stretch to say that her earlier decision is directly responsible for them being able to use Metroids to take over the universe or whatever their dastardly plan is. If that isn't personal investment then I don't know what is.

Link has hyrule to fight for. Samus has. . .nothing.

And you're comparing Samus to Link, like he has some sense of patriotism that compels him to save Hyrule? He's peasant. He isn't responsible for shit.

Unless he's a shit farmer.

[Radrappy]

That lonely quality keeps Metroid feeling very small and personal, and this is often what people say about those games, that exploring and discovering things make them feel like they've found something small and special that belongs to them. Not epic.

I don't mean epic in the sense that it involves a lot of people/armies. I'm just saying it's a galactic adventure that spans the whole of outer space. it's not about a dude trying to save a princess from a castle. It's about someone trying to preserve the cosmos.

But really, there are stakes. At the end of Metroid II, we see Samus doesn't really feel like driving a dangerous alien race to extinction after all. That's something to her character right there, and then in Super Metroid we see the consequences of that choice, the Space Pirates steal the baby Metroid, and Samus takes responsibility for the situation. Aside from just being the right thing to do, if Samus doesn't stop the Space Pirates it's not a huge stretch to say that her earlier decision is directly responsible for them being able to use Metroids to take over the universe or whatever their dastardly plan is. If that isn't personal investment then I don't know what is.

This is all well and good and makes for a nice little paragraph in the instruction manual, but I'm more referring to motivations within the games. I'm talking about reasons to act on a more specific level. In the prime games, you went to a new location only because it showed up as the next destination point on the map (often accompanied by a report of some kind of atmospheric abnormality or some bullshit). I need a little bit more than that to keep me going. Especially if I'm going to be wandering around tunnels alone for hours.

There's a reason metroid, while selling decently well, isn't nearly as popular/beloved as some of nintendo's other franchises. I'm merely addressing that.

[Radrappy]

What I mean to say, comparing Samus to Link and Mario is that Samus has nothing dear to her that is being threatened by whatever force she is fighting. Both Link and Mario are always trying to protect or save something that is important to them. Samus has nothing dear to her, and in turn is a weak/uninteresting character. bam.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

I've said this before; the stories are in the logs/lore. Your problem if you're too damn lazy to give at least a cursory glance.

The stakes here is the galaxy itself whether they be life-energy draining Jellyfish, or a cancerous ooze, or some combination thereof. It's hinted that the Chozo were a bit of an enforcer race, using their tech to improve the lives of fellow sentient beings. They're gone and Sammy took up the mantle (whilst getting paid, too; a girl's gotta support herself somehow). Space Pirates are largely coincidental to her cause.

And I'm not adamant they follow Retro's portrayal to the T. Not that there was a lot of it. When Meta Ridley burst onto the scene she didn't go into a hysterical fit; she pointed her arm cannon defiantly at the pterodon's beak, then the rest was left up to the player.

Less is more.

[Green Gibbon!]

I sure am glad there aren't any nerds in this forum!

[Esrever]

The storytelling in Prime is definitely reliant on you being the kind of person who likes the sensation of investigation. The story is there, but you have to uncover it, just like you have to uncover the geography. You arrive alone on an alien world with little to no information about where you are or what happened there, and then you methodically paw your way through it like some kind of... space detective.

That's where the enticement to play comes from, and even though I LOVE it, I understand why it's not everyone's bag. The game is a mystery and you have to want to solve it. The story is more about discovering what already happened than what happens next.

Also, I am a huge nerd.

[Zeta]

"Pirate Log #24304

In retrospect re-designing our entire planetary societal structure to revolve around piracy may have been a mistake, as industry in all other areas not related to raping or pillaging has ground to a sudden halt. I remain puzzled that our species hasn't died out to sheer lack of reasonable priorities. I remain cautiously optimistic, I just hope Samus Aran doesn't shoot me in the fac- AaaaaAARGh.

- Space Pirate HK6J0 (Dictated)"

[G.Silver]

I don't see how Samus' personal motivation that carries her from one point to another prevents you from enjoying a quality product, while Mario's goal--which is the same in every game and largely confined to the instruction manual--somehow makes him a "stronger character?" Somehow Hyrule is more "near and dear" to Link than "the whole universe" is to Samus? I don't buy it! If you don't like running around in some dark cavern hoping you might shoot a rock with five missiles in it then just say so.

I'm also pretty sure Metroid doesn't sell as well as other Nintendo games for the very same reasons people like it: it's harder, darker, and has a stereotypical SF theme, which is exactly the sort of thing you do to appeal to a geeky niche and turn away everyone else. Not because of Samus' lack of personality.

[Radrappy]

Half of the shit I scanned in Prime was just nonsense and walls of text. You guys are full of it.

The storytelling in Prime is definitely reliant on you being the kind of person who likes the sensation of investigation. The story is there, but you have to uncover it, just like you have to uncover the geography. You arrive alone on an alien world with little to no information about where you are or what happened there, and then you methodically paw your way through it like some kind of... space detective.

That's where the enticement to play comes from, and even though I LOVE it, I understand why it's not everyone's bag. The game is a mystery and you have to want to solve it. The story is more about discovering what already happened than what happens next.

Also, I am a huge nerd.

I guess I thought good stories were based on the relationships between characters. I mean this stuff is all good for MYTHOLOGY or giving the universe texture, but its not what the game is about right?


. . . right?

I don't see how Samus' personal motivation that carries her from one point to another prevents you from enjoying a quality product, while Mario's goal--which is the same in every game and largely confined to the instruction manual--somehow makes him a "stronger character?" Somehow Hyrule is more "near and dear" to Link than "the whole universe" is to Samus? I don't buy it! If you don't like running around in some dark cavern hoping you might shoot a rock with five missiles in it then just say so.

I'm also pretty sure Metroid doesn't sell as well as other Nintendo games for the very same reasons people like it: it's harder, darker, and has a stereotypical SF theme, which is exactly the sort of thing you do to appeal to a geeky niche and turn away everyone else. Not because of Samus' lack of personality.

Mario games are easy and colorful. The story is simple: he's trying to rescue someone he loves. In a game that is relatively easy and simple, I don't need much to keep me going. Link totally has more things going for him than just saving hyrule. They even gave him a cute little sister to look after in Windwaker.

Metroid on the other hand, is straight grueling. It's as you say, dark and difficult. I need a little more encouragement then, to stick with it. Because quite honestly, trying to figure out what to do next in a grimy environment with no story motivation what so ever is nauseating to say the least. Of course Hyrule is more dear to link. You see his home at the start of every game and he is constantly interacting with folks of hyrule. Half the fun is interacting with colorful(as in full of personality) characters and enemies. With samus, we never see what exactly it is she does on her off time, whether or not she even gives a damn about people, or what her universe is even like. I stand firmly behind my explanation for why metroid is less popular. The character and the universe are equally hollow.

But yeah I agree that its also because the games are ugly and difficult.

[CM August]

Metroid is vacuous trash but Mario somehow isn't? Oh, but we know Mario loves his preencess. Jesus Christ.

Going to side with G. Silver on this one. The entire argument smacks of "the style and aesthetics don't appeal to me, therefore it's objectively bad!"

[Dr. BUGMAN]

"Metroid didn't appeal to me so I'm all about appeasing the lowest common denominator"

One of the most famous female VG protagonist has been reduced to a moe magic girl, which is a pretty big deal considering the treatment the gender usually gets in this medium.

You want more cinematic? Fine. But apparently Sack-man thinks he's up to the task of creating one, when clearly he ain't. Double dick points for playing the enigmatic card just to pull the rug out under from everyone.

[Esrever]

I guess I thought good stories were based on the relationships between characters. I mean this stuff is all good for MYTHOLOGY or giving the universe texture, but its not what the game is about right?

It's absolutely what the game is about. That's why people describe the series with words like "lonely". You are investigating some kind of mysterious calamity on a strange alien world and you are completely alone. And that's what the fans love about the series... that atmosphere of isolation, exploration and discovery. It's a huge part of the series' identity, and since you don't like it, I'm not really surprised you don't think much of the games!

It is true, though... the end result of this design choice is games with very little "in the now" storytelling. So even though I love the Prime games, I was definitely intrigued by the idea of a Metroid game with a more prominent story. But man... if you can't do something right, don't do it at all, know what I mean?

As for the overall sales of the series, I think you can attribute that primarily to two factors: the ever decreasing number of older games with Nintendo systems in the West, and the fact that Japanese... well, just really don't like it very much. I feel like Zero Mission and Other M especially were designed specifically to woo over Japanese players.

That said, Metroid Prime sold several million copies, even without much luck in Japan. Prime 3 is one of the Wii's few million+ sellers, too. So it's not like the series doesn't have an audience!

[gr4yJ4Y]

Samus is a scientific type of person seeking out answers on her own. A group or extra support would only bring her down. It's hinted at that she has previous training or special skills with some kind of space marines/the Chozo (I haven't played a Metroid in a while) which makes her incredibly skilled with combat and exploration. Part of her goal is to explore while trying to survive. I'd say her overall motivations are in surviving, saving, and exploring.

There's a lot that is engaging about Samus because there isn't a lot known about her. You only get a vague sense of who she is with each game.

[Crisis]

I quite liked Metroid Prime for reasons I can't satisfactorily explain - I certainly didn't enjoy the sequels to anywhere near the same degree. I think it might have been escapism. I'm a colossal introvert, so being whisked away to inhabit a mechanical husk and exploring vast swathes of beautiful but deadly environments in search of some unknown bounty is exactly my idea of a good time. Samus could have been an experimental gorilla and I might not have noticed. A lot of games just feel like games, and some games feel like movies, but Prime is a rare game that feels like a book; not because it's particularly well written, but because it's an immersive activity I can sink into for a couple of undisturbed hours and take at entirely my own pace.

Is it good storytelling? I'm not sure, but I already feel pretentious for writing that last paragraph. I think that the scanning mechanic is great but a lot of people disagree, often pointing to the content of the scans as well as the tedium of the mechanic itself. Prime couldn't have gotten away with the walls of texts it regularly deluges you with if it had hired a voice actor to deliver each line, but is that a good or a bad thing? I honestly have no idea; on the one hand, part of me feels like unnecessary text is a waste of the player's time and Prime occasionally took it to ridiculous levels, the other part points out that it adds flavour, and that excessive scanning is both entirely optional and not nearly as much of a hassle as opponents like to admit. I wish more developers had tried it so I had more basis for comparison. (Has anyone outside of Retro picked up on the idea, by the way?)

[G.Silver]

Sorry to keep the pretentiousness of this thread going, but I just played through Other M and holy shit.

I am really shocked, and I probably shouldn't have been, but I really gave Sakamoto the benefit of the doubt. There's some weird decisions in here, and I did not think, as they were described, it was necessarily bad. I didn't have a bad reaction. I thought it would recover. Even after everyone said the story was awful (forget the acting--considering the garbage lines those poor actors were given, I think they did a great job), I still figured it couldn't really be *that* bad. (It is, of course.) But the thing that is the absolute worst quality is the reduction of Samus from a powerful figure to someone who is completely impotent. That's one thing, and then there's the Metroids, in squidgy symbolic context:

If you want to compare Metroid to Alien, then you have three obvious elements. You have a female lead, you have decrepit, abandoned facilities, and you have an alien who is sexually suggestive. Of course Geiger's Alien is well-documented as phallic, but the Metroid is blatantly yawnic. It's not just any flying pussy, though! It's got horrible, gripping spikes all over the underside (far grosser in 3D than 2D), and it will suck away all your life energy. But don't worry--they're kind of cute when they're young and still relatively harmless. You can take this metaphor as far as you like, for instance if you consider that the only weakness of metroids is that they're weak against the cold (ie, they can be made "frigid") and in Other M, genetic engineering produces metroids that can't be frozen--read that as insatiable female sexuality--and Samus impotence is demonstrated again by Adam, the virile male, who sacrifices himself to destroy them instead. Once you go down that road there's no coming back!

So yeah, it's a totally misogynistic work. Thanks, Sakamoto.

[Radrappy]

I think you and everyone who's upset by this version of samus are over thinking this way too much. He was trying to humanize her. Nothing more, nothing less. I think the story at its core is about two friends meeting again after a long time from being apart and having a conclusive end to their relationship. If you can look it like that and discard whatever gender based crusade you're on, I think you'll enjoy the game a lot more.

Remember sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

How did you feel about the gameplay though? Wasnt the "little Birdy" reveal cool??!

[Yami CJMErl]

I thought the gameplay was quite solid, and the revelation of the "choogle" (a.k.a. Little Birdy) was quite interesting.

While I had my own issues with the actual story and its' delivery, I found this article while doing some random web-browsing that might shed an improved light on the Ridley boss battle.

[G.Silver]

That's an interesting take on the boss battle but it also shows how far removed the creators are from the audience--the audience doesn't think Samus should respond like that. As a player, I have the reaction "oh look, it's Ridley! I will kill him good, this time!" (Or maybe, "how did he grow up from a tiny white chick into that giant creature in the few hours I've been on this ship?") while my on-screen character's mind just stops working entirely. When people talk about how they are more or less able to connect with a character because he or she does or doesn't talk, or how they can't relate because--Rappy--they don't understand what motivates the character, this is exactly what they're talking about.

But the parts that really get me are like when Adam shoots Samus for seemingly no reason (to cripple her so she couldn't engage the metroids because he couldn't stop her any other way? That seems overly complicated when he could have just got there before her, clearly no one in this game has any trouble getting to places before her despite all the monsters in the way) and then goes to sacrifice himself, when Samus routinely goes into places that are going to explode or be ejected into space and always manages to escape in the nick of time. So I went all the way through this section of the game only to be told I wasn't going to do this one, and to go all the way back the way I came (and fight that damn Nightmare boss from Fusion again, too!)

This next bit probably wouldn't have bugged me so much if I'd figured it out quicker. At the very end, you are restricted to an immobile first-person view and you have to shoot a bunch of bugs who leap all over the place, are hard to track, and can kill you very quickly. It turns out that there's a target in the middle of the area and I just need to shoot bugs until I get a clear shot. After taking so long to figure this out, I am really itching to kill that target. So it is with great satisfaction that *I* pull that trigger and *I* kill that badly-written plot contrivance. But then someone shouts "NO!" and Samus doesn't do it, and then a bunch of "bad marines" come in and do it anyway, like it's one of those Disney movies where the hero can never kill the villain, but he gets his just desserts in the end anyway. That's fine for a movie aimed at not offending anyone's parents, but come on! These are the kinds of things I'm talking about when I say Samus is impotent. Very little that she does matters, or she is stopped from doing it by someone else.

I think the story at its core is about two friends meeting again after a long time from being apart and having a conclusive end to their relationship.

If I look at this as just a story about how Samus and Adam are friends meeting again after a long time apart, then I find their relationship completely unbelievable and don't find either of them even a little bit likable. Looking at it as an unintentional glimpse at what Sakamoto considers a sympathetic female character is a lot more interesting.

I did like the gameplay though. I think the 3rd person perspective was well implemented and really preserved the feel of the 2D games, and I liked the rhythm of the quick-dodge and charge attacks. It reminded me pleasantly of Burning Rangers. It did feel very linear compared to the 2D Metroids and I think that hurt it a bit, it definitely wasn't as compelling as I found Fusion and Zero Mission.

[Radrappy]

That's an interesting take on the boss battle but it also shows how far removed the creators are from the audience--the audience doesn't think Samus should respond like that. As a player, I have the reaction "oh look, it's Ridley! I will kill him good, this time!" (Or maybe, "how did he grow up from a tiny white chick into that giant creature in the few hours I've been on this ship?") while my on-screen character's mind just stops working entirely. When people talk about how they are more or less able to connect with a character because he or she does or doesn't talk, or how they can't relate because--Rappy--they don't understand what motivates the character, this is exactly what they're talking about.

Lets be honest with ourselves here. Sakamoto is retconning the Prime franchise. Taking that into account, this is the studios first stab at defining Samus as a character. They obviously decided that the 2d games were not the proper outlet to do so. The fanbase reacted in a certain way because by this point they have forced some kind of image on the character and made it their own. Which is totally fine. But don't be upset when the CREATOR of said character puts his foot down and decides to portray her a certain way. It's not misogyny. It's not sexism. I'm sorry that the official depiction of Samus contradicts whatever it is you want her to be. I know everyone is desperately trying to make everything click perfectly and make sense in an official chronology, but you really have to look at this as more of a reboot. Because that's what it is.

All the poorly written plot points you address are completely valid complaints. Im just saying that poor japanese story telling conventions are more to blame than sexism.

[G.Silver]

Well that's fair. I don't seriously think he's a misogynist, but it's totally open to that interpretation, and like you say, this is something that happens with Japanese creators not even knowing what they are doing (though they've managed to make their "weak" characters likable plenty of times, too). And as a consumer, I'm free to be upset by whatever the creators of whatever product decide to do. That doesn't mean I know better than he does, but damn if I'm not going to say something about it to people on the internet who are sort of like friends.

But isn't it a retcon only as far as Prime in concerned? I'm not entirely sure what the Prime games established as far as her character (I'd love to know, I didn't play them) but in this "new" timeline, Sakamoto's games all still happened, Super Metroid especially, and I am sure I read somewhere that the events of this game somehow lead into Metroid Fusion as well (though Other M makes it thematically redundant in nearly every possible way). These games--not Prime--are what most peoples' perceptions of the character come from, they're where Retro got their own ideas of what the character should be like.

And why should we treat the creator's view of the character as sacred and unchallengable, when he says that the decision to make Samus female came late in the development of the original game, and wasn't even his idea?

[Radrappy]

You're absolutely justified in being upset with the consistency of her characterization. But when a game is taken to the third dimension on the scale of a blockbuster(with production values to match), everything kind of gets reset. And, in this case, creators get a little greedy/irresponsible with storytelling now that every cinematic convention is at their disposal. It's like when George Lucas was suddenly free to do whatever he wanted with computer graphics and created the Star Wars prequels. Limitations force you to get creative and well, elegant, at times. In all seriousness though, I can forgive Sakamoto's eagerness to get a reaction out of Samus when she runs into Ridley in Other M because its not something that was ever capitalized in the Nes/Snes games and quite frankly wasn't even possible at the time. With that in mind, you really need to ignore the fact that she's dispatched the purple menace three times (six if you include the primes) already.

Reading everyone's thoughts about the Metroid franchise in general has shed light on what I think I was missing when I played the prime games. I think I came into the series expecting one thing and in the process ignored what made the series great in the first place(narrative wise, anyway. I still don't like platforming in the first person).

I also completely understand your frustration with a character who has thus far been extremely proactive, acting extremely weak/passive throughout the entire game. To be fair though, she kicks major ass, just not in any of the cutscenes. Oh and that final first person sequence you described was absolute shit. Did you beat the post game? It's pretty cool.

[G.Silver]

I did! Though obviously since I didn't really appreciate Samus relationship with Adam, I still groaned at the ending (and it raised more "this story isn't very good"-type questions in me) but it was a really nice surprise after I'd been deprived of the expected escape sequence earlier. The game side really is pretty good, but it's hard not to let the story color my impressions of it because it really is tied in there quite effectively. It's just too bad that it's awful, and the game itself doesn't have many moments where I would say "this part was really cool and affected me in a positive manner," and there are so many parts that feel unsatisfying because of the context the story puts them in.

The Ridley scene is really pretty low on my list of scenes that annoyed me, btw.

[Radrappy]

http://nerfnow.com/comic/image/372

wonderfully relevant