Sonic's Future Confirmed: expect more of the same

[Wombatwarlord777]

In some old threads, there were posters that claimed that among the problems of the new releases of the time (mostly Shadow and Sonic 2006, I believe) is that each new game had an entirely disseperate aestetic feel from the previous entries. I don't consider this a huge flaw, as long as the gameplay feels familiar to what is expected from the given series. A bigger problem with the Sonic games is that the gameplay is inconsistant from game to game. To add insult to injury, each new type of gameplay is usually flawed in some way.

I'm not talking about the Werehog or fishing or any of the auxillary modes. I'm talking about Sonic's game established in Sonic Adventure, and it's refinement in Adventure 2. Each additional entry never bothered to expand upon Sonic's sufficently deep and thilling gameplay of the Adventures.

Arguably, the teamwork gimmick of Heroes ruined the pace of that game, although level design (especially the constant danger of falling to your doom and mandatory battles) are also to blame.

To say nothing of guns and vehicals, Shadow had all the problems of Heroes, in addition to boring level design everywhere else and slippery, unresponsive controls. In my opinion, this game fails to exploit the series' trademark speed more than any other, and thus comes across as the painfully generic platformer it is.

Sonic 2006 seems to try to faithfully follow the tradition honed in the Adventures, but is more of a standstill, if not an outright regression. The Mach Speed sections, the one significant innovation, is much too broken to be taken seriously.

Unleashed's Daytime stages are authentically fun, but are a 3D expansion of the speed-based gameplay developed over the Advance/Rush series, not the more balanced Adventure gameplay.

I think the developers of Sonic games are in a better situation than they realize. Over the course of Sonic's 3D career, he's found two perfectly agreeable modes of core gameplay: that of the Adventures and that of Unleashed. My (amature) advice would be to focus on one (or perhaps a happy medium of the two) and totally nailing it. And not in several additional games either, but the next game.

[Crowbar]

To be honest I realise now that it really doesn't matter what they do, and the problem hasn't been the disparate gameplay modes at all.

All it is is that whatever they've done with the Sonic games, they've done badly, and they've done it badly because, as this interview proves, they genuinely don't care about making a good game. They just want to slap on some shit that'll appeal to their chosen demographic and literally nothing more.

They could make a Sonic game where he uses magic chopsticks to rid the world of mutant capybaras and I wouldn't give a shit as long as it actually had compelling and polished gameplay mechanics. One the flipside, the core fans are constantly clamouring for a Sonic 4 or a Sonic Adventure 3 or a Sonic 2 HD Remix or whatever. But if it was actually made, there is a 100% chance that it would be just as bad as the worst of their regular offerings, and, once again, nobody would be satisfied.

tl;dr The problem with Sonic games now is just that they're shit. Who'd've guessed? Sorry for stating the obvious. Also I'm flagrantly abusing the word "they" in this post.

[UCHU]

Why don't they just hire Treasure? :3

[Yami CJMErl]

Because that would be an intelligent decision.

[K2J]

Hiring BioWare seemed like an intelligent decision, on paper.

[Crowbar]

Jesus, don't remind me.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

It doesn't matter who they put in charge of the property; Sega execs will be pushing an unreasonable deadline on them.

[Crisis]

I guess I was the only one who thought BioWare was a terrible match from the start, then.

[Radrappy]

I guess I was the only one who thought BioWare was a terrible match from the start, then.

not true.

[FlashTHD]

I guess I was the only one who thought BioWare was a terrible match from the start, then.

not true.

I didn't think it was a bad choice but it took those hideously embarassing screenshots to convince me it likely didn't matter worth a shit. Turns out the staff of that thing was exactly that amateurish. Sonic Chronicles was perhaps less a problem of crunch time and more idiots at the helm. (Also, funny how doctors Ray and Greg were trying pretty hard to sell the concept to the press in the beginning, then utterly disappeared...they weren't even in the credits were they?)

[Ngangbius]

Speaking of which, the Japanese version of the game was released last week. It bombed as expected. If there ever was going to be a SC2, I wonder if Sega will go an even cheaper route, and hire Dimps to make it even though their track record on making an RPG is even worse than BioWare.

I wonder if Sonic Team will even acknowledge any of the characters created for that title for their little Sonic Channel site?

Also, recently Ray Muzyka was interviewed on his all time favorite video games and one of them was Sonic the Hedgehog. Funny that Sonic Chronicles feels nothing like Sonic 1 in the atmosphere of the game.

[Arcade]

I think Sonic should be more like Modern Warfare, tee bee ach. Just add some guns and Russians.

They tried that with Shadow, only the enemies where aliens, cause the cold war is over, it didnt work...

Really, is that hard to see how modern 3D games play, and make a Sonic game with that?

A Sonic Adventure with a good camera, better graphics, no fishing, and without parts where you fall to the "nothiness", like in the first Sonic Adventure.

if they say a 3D game takes time, fine, make Sonic the only playable character, maybe include Shadow, make Shadow just a diferent skin for Sonic, like it was, more or less, in Sonic Adeventure 2. There, you have a game with the two most popular characters, and you only have to program one (Sonic, Shadow plays the same, so is just a diferent skin). Is that really hard?

[Crazy Penguin]

Sonic should be appealing to children. The original games were hugely appealing to children. However, a children's game that is truly great will also be just as appealing to adults.

See much of the Mario series, particularly Super Mario Galaxy.

A good game is a good game is a good game. A mediocre game is a mediocre game is a mediocre game. A bad game is a bad game is a bad game. All of this is regardless of age range suitability.

"I think we've had challenges with [the 2006] Sonic the Hedgehog and Unleashed," he said. "[The 2006 game] Sonic the Hedgehog sells extremely well at a budget price. So clearly it's very popular with a young audience. But first and foremost is: We've got to make a quality game for that audience. Does quality mean it's got to be a Metacritic 90 percent? Well not necessarily. It's just got to be quality that's appropriate for them.

How is that anything other than an admission that they'll produce sub-standard games because kids are apparently too stupid to know the difference? Why do they feel that under 12 year olds are deserving of a lower quality of entertainment?

[Crazy Penguin]

We can and do spend a lot of time discussing what kind of ideas of appropriate for Sonic games and Sonic as a character, but that hasn't been the main issue for a long time.

Sonic with a sword is a stupid idea, sure. But the bigger issue at hand is that they made a BAD Sonic with a sword game and not a GOOD Sonic with a sword game. Whether it's the sword or werehog or team system or Shadow with guns it all comes back to the fact that the games are genuinely bad on their own merits.

The Sonic Advance series was relatively gimmick free and yet the games remained thoroughly mediocre at best.

It would be nice for Sega to ditch the dumb gimmicks. It would be nicer for them to actually make good games again.

[Xyton]

I think part of the issue here, too, is the length thing. I know someone posted a clip from an interview saying that basically, they added the night stages lengthen the game. If it was day stages alone, it would have only been x hours, and that wasn't enough, so they went back and added the night stages, and presumably the Sun / Moon Medals to make it y hours.

I'm willing to concede that part of that logic isn't Sega's fault -- reviewers put way too much emphasis on how long a game is, and don't give adequate weight to replay value. Still, look at the Genesis games: You could easily beat them in an afternoon. Part of that is that you're already familiar with them, sure, but the first two didn't have saves. You were supposed to beat it in one go. Why is it so terrible to make a game you can beat in an afternoon now, so long as it's good? I understand that making a game takes a lot of time, effort, and money, even if it turns out to be terrible, but why not spend that time making a short, polished game?

[Senbei]

Sonic is pretty much the only thing keeping Sega afloat at this point, right? Even the couple of good games they released, Madworld and House of the Dead, completely bombed. It sucks, but it makes sense that they would put their marketing team in charge of Sonic instead of designers. There's just no reason to make a quality game if a gimmicky one will make just as much.

[Majestic Joey]

Reviewers I think are a big problem with Sonic games because they always think they know what Sonic is about. They will go on about he was all about speed and then switch it up and say he is about the attitude and then later say he is all about platforming. But the fact is they are preaching shit they don't even know and a lot of people believe it/listen to it.

[big_smile]

Don't Sega put out these messages on bi-quaterly basis? I'm sure I remember them stating before that Sonic is only cool for the under 12s.

Although I have always wondered how Sonic has managed to remain popular, when other low quality franchises (such as Tomb Raider) eventually fell to the way side after they extinguished their initial popularity. Why do the under 12s religiously buy Sonic games? Don't they get frustrated by the unfair obstacles or bored by the tedious sections present in each title?

It doesn't matter who they put in charge of the property; Sega execs will be pushing an unreasonable deadline on them.

But at the end of the day, Sonic is a business and if a game is only ever going to sell X number copies, then its hard to justify spending more time if its not going to result in a guaranteed increased return.
The real problem is with the designers who, when given an unreasonable deadline, start filling up the games with unnecessary junk.
Take Sonic Unleashed - the RPG elements were completely unnecessary and added nothing to the experience. The time wasted on these could have been spent on refining the core gameplay.
Nearly every Sonic game since Sonic R has had this problem. Secret Rings sold itself as focusing just on Sonic, but it too managed to clutter itself up with unnecessary moves and missions.

The Rush games have the lowest amount of baggage and, while far from perfect (or free from clutter), are some of the better games of the post Mega Drive era.

[Crazy Penguin]

I generally like the idea of bonus missions as a way to make a game last longer. If they're not implemented properly they can be inane and repetitive and not particularly add much to the game, but as long as they don't detract from the game then everything's fine and dandy. Ideally though every mission would be just as fun as the first level play through, just like (again!) Super Mario Galaxy.

In Sonic Rush Adventure the bonus missions weren't mandatory. Most of them were kind of dull and blah but they were just an extra for those who wanted to do them. You didn't need them to unlock bonus material or get a new ending or level or anything.

Then there are games like NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams on Wii where the bonus missions were mandatory. Poor form!

I think that something could be benefited from going back to video games' arcade route and having a high score table in place. Having the top ten highest scores and lowest times and entering your initials beside them. Improving upon your skills just for the pure fun of it. That's magic right there, and one of the biggest reasons why the original NiGHTS into Dreams... (and Sonic CD, for a Sonic example) worked so well.

[big_smile]

The problem with bonus missions in Sonic games is that Sonic Team often use them as a substitute for exploration, which results in bland, overly liner levels.
Obviously, that's a flaw of Sonic Team rather than a problem in the concept of bonus missions. Having said that, if enough exploration is present, then bonus missions become unnecessary.

Exploration is key to the Sonic experience. In other platform games, exploration can end up causing boredom, as the activity inherently requires backtracking.
With Sonic, backtracking is not a problem, as he can move through levels fast enough to prevent boredom from setting in.
In fact, due to his high speed, exploration is required to prevent the experience from devolving into a shallow speed run.

If a Sonic game offers enough scope exploration, then the player becomes empowered to create their own mission.
I think that is one the reasons why Sonic 3 & Knuckles is so much more rewarding to play than Sonic CD. Both have large levels but in the latter, devices such as the Metal Sonic projector and capsules made the exploration feel artificial, as you knew the designers had left those items for you to purposely find.
In S3K, finding a secret route felt more organic (and so more rewarding), as it wasn't something that you had been specifically told to look for.

^_^

[FlashTHD]

Reviewers I think are a big problem with Sonic games because they always think they know what Sonic is about. They will go on about he was all about speed and then switch it up and say he is about the attitude and then later say he is all about platforming. But the fact is they are preaching shit they don't even know and a lot of people believe it/listen to it.

Joey am goooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal

In Sonic Rush Adventure the bonus missions weren't mandatory. Most of them were kind of dull and blah but they were just an extra for those who wanted to do them. You didn't need them to unlock bonus material or get a new ending or level or anything.

You need to do a lot of them to put the sound test together, which sounded cool for 2 minutes until the obnoxiousness of it hit me. I mean, it doesn't sound so bad on paper - the mission variety is somewhat like SA2 - but the way the levels are built, it's too repetitive. To name one, the time trial missions are pretty pointless because there's already a Time Attack mode and, for that matter, racing in vs. mode (just ask the japanese speedrunner who humiliated me through nearly the whole game one night). (edit: uh, I guess you could ignore time attack then, but that's a little lame isn't it)

Basically, too many ways to do too little. And it's for that reason I got tired of juggling the Unleashed town missions too. I really ought to finish getting all the emeralds in SRA though...

Now, I refuse to read the full interview due to risk of brain cells frying from the stupidity, so tell me people, where in there is it implied that these two knuckleheads have any say in deciding the direction of the series? God forbid if they're actually relaying word from someone with importance?

[The Doc]

Not even reading the replies in this thread to that interview, here's my two cents:

How fucking lazy do you have to be to say "Well, let's do something really stupid and see who likes it, then we'll cater to them and ONLY to them."? That's not even fair. That's #1.

#2, how fucking stupid do you have to be to completely ignore the adult fanbase? They're the ones clamoring for something new, they're the ones screaming and practically pleading for just one game that is made for them...and you deny them that for no good reason other than "we don't wanna"? Again, that's just laziness.

[Wombatwarlord777]

#2, how fucking stupid do you have to be to completely ignore the adult fanbase? They're the ones clamoring for something new, they're the ones screaming and practically pleading for just one game that is made for them...and you deny them that for no good reason other than "we don't wanna"? Again, that's just laziness.

I think the adult fanbase of the Sonic games are pretty much the people on this forum. If Sega's goal truly is to only appeal to their target audience - the preteen crowd by the sound of it - then they're doing a fine job. But if they want to create a game that expands that audience, then you've got to go the extra mile.

But Sega shouldn't have to set their standards as low as they do now. They've got a great character that could easily make a great game with a little effort. Sonic's basic design is so bizzare that he'll attract the kids for sure. But he's also got that smug edge (or at least he did), so adults won't be embarrassed to play as him. The youngsters will appreciate how easy he's (supposed to be) to control, while the older set will keep playing to discover the secrets and depth of the stages. Just iron out the glitches, and you should have a perfectly good Sonic game. It doesn't seem so much harder to make than the bilge that Sega cranks out now.

Sonic is pretty much the only thing keeping Sega afloat at this point, right?

Sonic is what's keeping Sega from sinking further in the red. They're not afloat in any sense of the word.

[Ngangbius]

Sonic is pretty much the only thing keeping Sega afloat at this point, right? Even the couple of good games they released, Madworld and House of the Dead, completely bombed. It sucks, but it makes sense that they would put their marketing team in charge of Sonic instead of designers. There's just no reason to make a quality game if a gimmicky one will make just as much.

Actually, I remember reading that the HotD Wii titles was a success and that Sega was pleased with the sales. As far as Sonic goes, I remember the latest entry Sonic and the Black Knight sold pretty poorly in comparision.

Although I have always wondered how Sonic has managed to remain popular, when other low quality franchises (such as Tomb Raider) eventually fell to the way side after they extinguished their initial popularity. Why do the under 12s religiously buy Sonic games? Don't they get frustrated by the unfair obstacles or bored by the tedious sections present in each title?

It's not so much kids are buying the games, but the parents(some who possibly grew up playing the original Sonic games) are purchasing the titles for them since Sonic seems to be a trusted "safe" brand for tykes. The character design is also appealing to kids--whether it's his pre-SA design or his current one. Most of all, I think his continued popularity is due to the existance of Sonic X and to a smaller extent, the Sonic comics. I mean, I wonder if Sonic X(or any other Sonic cartoon) was never made this decade, would many kids even give a crap about the franchise?

[G.Silver]

If a Sonic game offers enough scope exploration, then the player becomes empowered to create their own mission.
I think that is one the reasons why Sonic 3 & Knuckles is so much more rewarding to play than Sonic CD. Both have large levels but in the latter, devices such as the Metal Sonic projector and capsules made the exploration feel artificial, as you knew the designers had left those items for you to purposely find.
In S3K, finding a secret route felt more organic (and so more rewarding), as it wasn't something that you had been specifically told to look for.

What the hell Smile, you turning this into an S3K vs CD thing?! What does this have to do with this topic? But I'll take the bait!

There are next to zero "secret" routes in the Sonic games, it's just a continual stream of branching and joining paths. How does it become "artificial" just because there actually are things you can find? Not just the specific artifacts you mention, but Sonic CD's terrain is ripe with unique formations that you won't find anywhere else and are largely not worth anything except for exploring and discovering. Wouldn't it be equally valid to say that the exploration in S3K is "artificial" because you need to find the big rings and they actually are hidden, and to access the whole game you need to find them? S3K is also not built for exploring in the same way, because backtracking is often impossible. With a few rare exceptions, Sonic CD's stages are built so you can get from any point to any other point, like a playground, compared to S3K's one-way rollercoaster construction.