the death of surrealism?

[hedgepig]

The fantastical and surreal locales of the early Sonic games are so unusual that's it's difficult to believe that they occur on the same planet as the locations in the Adventure games onwards (bar Heroes.)

With the exception of Robotnik, humans did not appear in the series until Sonic Adventure. It's hard to imagine a human populace in the bizarre stages of the early Sonics, but what about the buildings in the background of zones like Chemical Plant? Are these human habitations?

This has been the biggest cannonical problem for me. I was always content with the Sonic universe being practically alien, with no human population on the scale we see now. There are many minor discrepancies I can overlook, but this huge transition from fantasy to aping reality leaves a gulf between the early classics and the modern series, as good as Sonic Adventure was.

Just want to hear opinions.

[DackAttac]

Didn't we just touch on this in the Unleashed thread? Oh well, reiteration time.

It was one thing in SA1&2 to see, basically, those surreal architectures of the 2D series skinned with the real world. But everything that followed lost the spark of why the levels were designed the way they were. Even near the end of SA2, there were less loops and open-highway style passages and more rooms that Sonic walked through. And of course, the alternate routes, but in order to bitch about that, I need to feel that the Sonic Team we have is capable of meeting the standards of any competent programming company. First, bare minimum. Then the bells and whistles.

But when they attempt to play it surreal, they don't know what they're doing. They don't give a shit. The surrealists are gone, and the creative-vision folks they have now work better with real world/Sonic world hybrids. Every time they try for the abstract, they either end up cribbing the glory years—see Seaside Hill, half of the Advance series—or making something so intent on being fantasy-comprised I feel embarrassed subjecting my eyes to it. Music Plant (SAdv2)? Toy Kingdom (SAdv3)? Circus Park (Shadow)? Doesn't it just feel like they're throwing darts in a room wallpapered with the dictionary and wedging in whatever concept they hit? I'd feel a lot more comfortable crooning for the loss if they didn't try occasionally and consistently fail. It's kind of a bummer, but really, I'd settle for looking back and missing the stylistic touches, because I miss the fun, the flow and the finesse so much more.

[hedgepig]

As poor and contrived as Heroes is at least it makes some sort of sense Sonically. Sonic Adventure 2 may be the superior game gameplay wise but the locations are so far removed from the original series it feels like doraemon on the set of CSI.

Perhaps I just have to accept that Sonic games are gone and now we only get games that feature the Sonic character.

[DackAttac]

That was one concept I grappled with awhile back: why still give a shit? If Sonic Team has such a hard time pumping out decent games, let alone ones similar in style to their original classics, then why do I still jump on each pre-release screenshot like flies on cake, wondering if this game will be different? Am I buying just for the fucking character? And I realized that even as shitty as the games get, they have the market cornered on Sonic games. I'm not an RPG guy, FPS felt awkward until Metroid Prime 3 (say what you will about the Wii's gimmicky premise, the light gun feature is invaluable); so platforming is really my genre of choice. And there's not really a lot else out there that operates the same way Sonic does. That's not to say there are no good platformer games, but they're stylistically different, and Sonic's M.O. is just so niche-y there hasn't really been another series that's attempted it. Quality notwithstanding, even a terrible game like Shadow did more for my high-speed platforming addiction than, say, a game like Galaxy that I hold in higher regard than the recently discovered cure for herpes.

Psyche.

[Frieza2000]

That was one concept I grappled with awhile back: why still give a shit?

I was thinking of suggesting this as a poll. I'm guessing we'd get pretty much the same answer from everyone? Personally I'm just keeping up out of curiosity.

Music Plant (SAdv2)? Toy Kingdom (SAdv3)? Circus Park (Shadow)? Doesn't it just feel like they're throwing darts in a room wallpapered with the dictionary and wedging in whatever concept they hit?

Actually, Music Plant was probably inspired by Ristar's Sonata, and Toy Kingdom has a precedence in Bloxonius from Jazz Jackrabbit's Holiday Hare expansion.

[FlashTHD]

Perhaps I just have to accept that Sonic games are gone and now we only get games that feature the Sonic character.

So are you guys quite enjoying being tricked into becoming even more depressed-sounding and overcontemplative, thanks to a debate sparked over a pet peeve subject now being blown way the hell up?

Frieza, there was this.

[j-man]

I was playing Sonic Advance 3 the other night, out of desperation, and was struck by how much I actually enjoyed it, even Toy Kingdom (especially Toy Kingdom, actually). It has this bizarre, early-nineties SNES platformer feel to it. And the music fucking kicks ass! Who made that shit?

To be honest though, I've given up on trying to fathom what the average Sonic obsessive is actually looking for in a Sonic game. "Realism? None of that please. Surrealism all the way! Wait, a level where you run around a giant piano? No thanks, I want generic beaches! No wait, no more beach levels! Why can't a game start in a city, for example? CITY ESCAPE? ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY? Sonic's not about speed, but about slow exploration! Actually wait, can we speed it up a bit? NOT THAT MUCH."

It's swings and roundabouts, man. Just find your one game, your personal paragon of the Sonic series, and stick with. Chances are high you'll never be that happy again.

[RocketPunch]

To be honest though, I've given up on trying to fathom what the average Sonic obsessive is actually looking for in a Sonic game.

Who is the average Sonic obsessive these days anyway? Are we talking about fans like the ones here, or those kids who bought Gems Collection having never even heard of Sonic CD before? I've always been under the impression that all the "normal" fans want some sort of game based on the Sonic 3 & Knuckles template as far as gameplay goes. Well balanced exploration, minimal characters, varied gameplay types that are all directly focused on speed, etc. But the younger fans, who probably outnumber us overwhelmingly at this point, are the ones who Sonic Team tends to cater to, and their priorities tend to be guns and princesses and realistic looking Eggmans and werewolves and you pretty much get the point.

Visually, while I do love the abstract style from the early years, I wouldn't say Sonic Team completely got it wrong in the 3-D games. SA1 still feels Sonic-y to me even in the real world setting, especially in levels like Final Egg, Speed Highway, and Windy Valley (the classic style robots helped this as well). SA2 did a good job with the dark, sci-fi design scheme, tweaked with a slight anime flair and the use of San Francisco as a backdrop. These games weren't traditionally Sonic, but they both succeeded in portraying cool, albeit different, styles.

With that said, I'd rather see Sonic Team succeed in one different style than fail in an attempt to reproduce the same style as before. That's when we get to Sonic Heroes, which looks like Sega's cheap parody of itself in retrospect.

[Isuka]

About that poll; I've come to the conclusion that no amount of "resting" for the series can guarantee us that we'll have a functional (be it realistic or otherwise) entry in the series. "Resting a series" helps to build up expectation after the games have more or less saturated its fans.

On the topic at hand... well, I think that what most Sonic fans of old really want to see in their games isn't particularly surrealistic environments, but the portrayal of the series' staple, old stages in full 3D. This is why, while being realistic in style, Sonic Adventure felt like your average Sonic game (1 and CD notwithstanding) instead of some kind of travesty or anything, it didn't attempt to introduce many new styles.
This slowly started to change with Adventure 2, and before you know it almost all the recent games are comprised of at least 50% new styles that feel alien at best, and borderline profane at worst. But the truly worst part is, some of these new styles are instantly associated with suckiness in Sonic fandom because they were first introduced in bad games, with bad controls, bad camera, bad collision detection or a combination of them all.

I too think that surrealism isn't necessarily dead in Sonic games, but there are bigger priorities in respect to what has to change aside from style.

[hedgepig]

Are you not looking forward to Shadow Adventure 3 Battle: Treasure Hunt (Featuring Sonic the hedgehog?)

Yeah the adventure games were good admittedly; It's just hard to imagine Green Hill Zone exisiting in the same world as San Francisco. Are these games canonical or what?

[G.Silver]

I don't think any of Sonic Heroes' problem stems from the graphical style, but just the repetative use of the same elements over and over. Looking at any screen shot of any level, I think they're really very nice, but then, that's pretty much all you get (some stages are better about this than others, the haunted mansion in particular breaks it up a lot). By comparison, almost every section of every level in Sonic Adventure is unique in appearance, the environments are constantly changing.

Then you have the level designs generally and the gameplay that we loathe so, and the graphic style is the least of its problems.

[Malchik]

I think it's a combo of story and bad game play. They tried once to go back to basics with Sonic Heroes by removing all the serious and darkness of Sonic Adventure 2 and it fell flat on it's face because the whole package felt downright lame. This was only part of the issue because the game play (what it's all about people) was just boring/tedious/ and down right repetitive.

Actually I take back all of what I said. All the 2-D games in my opinion still had boring/tedious/repetitive elements. But they knew how and when to use them. Sonic 3 is a great example. Most of the maps were overly long and I often felt like turning off my machine simply because I was getting board of playing but usually by that time I had just hit the end of the map and for some godly reason I kept playing. The tediousness of Sonic 3 was intentional and balance. It was difficult and sometimes annoying at some of the obstacles you would die at and replay. The new Sonic games retain this but it's usually coming from game flaws like floors with no clipping, homing attack not always working, and other botched goodness that just makes us think we wasted some cash.

[FlashTHD]

floors with no clipping

How is this even happening to people? I can only faintly recall one incident in Heroes where it got me, and never again.

[WW]

Once I fell through the floor when I ran through the corner of a wall in SA2's City Escape, but that was the only time it's ever happened to me, AND it was my own fault too.

[Isuka]

I remember there were a bunch of those in the first Adventure, but that's all. Though it's also true that I still haven't played Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic Next.

I think I also saw something pretty similar in the special stages of Heroes, but that shouldn't be a surprise for anyone.

[gr4yJ4Y]

I don't think surrealism can make or break a game. It would be nice for it to come back, rather than seeing really plain, realistic environments like the ones shown so far in Sonic Unleashed. However, if they can do real-life themes in style (e.g. City Escape) they're ok.

I don't think the worlds from the Genesis games and those from Sonic Adventure onward can be looked at as the same worlds (almost like two seperate canons). They're just too different.

Every time a new Sonic game comes out I question why I'm getting it (often dispite average reviews). I think it has to do with Sonic being the only decent series of fast-paced platformers I know of. I've come to the conclusion that I like fast-paced platformers more than most other genres. Mario and the like are fine, but they really don't fit into that sub-genre Sonic has a monopoly on.

[WW]

Sonic and Knuckles had pretty realistically styled enviroments though. And were'nt the original games supposed to take place on islands in the pacific ocean?