AYE DEE DUBBLEYUU

[Dr. BUGMAN]

https://kotaku.com/meet-rough-and-tumbl ... 1823070013

More new characters. Ayup. They're skunks, yessiree. Some weather we've been having, eh?

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Also, they look pokemon-esque, yeah? Like I think "it looks like a pokemon" is one of the laziest criticisms, but they really do.

[Wombatwarlord777]

At the very least, all these skunks share tails / the impression of tails that act as pseudo-pompadours. Their coloration and shading is really Pokemon-esque too.

It's amazing how much that big skunk resembles a furry Vector. Also, I'm sorry, but how do you not make your skunk antagonist a sneaky mad-scientist type that attacks with vials of chemicals?

[Jingles]

So these guys are the Scratch & Grounder successors, then? (Well, maybe Sleet & Dingo is a more apt comparison.) I'm not crazy about how they look. Do we really need more sneering quasi-villains? Part of what makes those "two Eggman lackeys" fun in any Sonic adaptation is how goofy and un-serious they are. Scratch and Grounder are both stupid, annoying wackos with great cartoon voices who constantly try to one-up the other for the affection of an uncaring master. Those guys from Sonic X (don't even remember their names) have the whole manzai comedy routine thing going on, which probably works a lot better in Japanese than it does in English. Orbot and Cubot aren't malicious in any regard, and it's fun to see how they bounce off of the Adventure-era characters, like they're afraid to associate with any of them. Rough and Tumble (gettin' real sick of that naming scheme) both just look like someone's Infinite x Bark fan character. Am I the only one who wants some jokes in my comic books!?

I wish Flynn would write some characters that aren't just "X with some of Y's traits". Tempo from the Mega Man series was great, and had a fun design to boot.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

To be fair, they've yet only given the impression of grimness; they could in theory still be comical. That kind of subversion doesn't seem to be in Flynn's wheelhouse, however. And that's the real rub here: all the info is "hey lookee new cawacturs!" like they're jangling a ring of keys in front of an infant. The only hope these halfbaked newbies have is in some competent writing, so what are we supposed to get eager about, here?

[Wombatwarlord777]

I'm kind of wondering why Bean and Bark aren't being presented as the low-level muscle for hire. I can't imagine that they're off limits for the new comic book. Maybe they can't use aspects of their personalities that were established in the Archie comics? I dunno, I think that's kind of a stretch.

One of the things that Flynn seems to struggle with as a writer is character fragmentation. Instead of having one group of villainous mercenaries, he seems to be going for at least two (Rough / Tumble, and assumingly Nack / Bean / Bark). This is kind of similar to how he introduced, by my count, at least four groups of alternative Freedom Fighters during his Sonic Unleashed adaptation (one each for the Desert, Plains, China-looking area, and anachronistic Medieval area), each with three or four members that all had their own gimmicks and backstories. I get that he had to re-establish the Archie continuity from essentially nothing, but my god, it felt exhausting to be introduced to group after group of shallow, overly-saturated critters. Maybe going through a globe-trotting adventure so soon after the recon wasn't a great idea.

Meanwhile you look at something like Sonic X that, for all it's faults, had a pretty good limited cast with a decent amount of character development for a lot of individual characters. It's the only continuity I can think of (aside from some minor moments in Underground) where Those Two Eggman Cronies actually got some development, a bit of a character arc, and actions that affected the plot beyond "hurrdurr, let's git dat hedgehog!"

[Dr. BUGMAN]

To Flynn's credit he is actively cognizant of extra-canonical material. So it might be after the community finally got around to digging up info on Bark & Bean and discovered--what I long suspected--that they were never intended to be villains, he's now reticent to use them as such, especially now as it's a clean slate.

Fang, however, was always meant to be the small-scale, occasionally-bumbling villain. Why we don't get him instead of Stinkachu and Pewcario is flummoxing, but that's nothing new. And I really do hope they drop the whole "Nacks and Weasels" nonsense; it's inevitable he'll be a pentadactyl, though, as that's in deference to a market this will never be made available to.

[Crazy Penguin]

So these guys are the Scratch & Grounder successors, then? (Well, maybe Sleet & Dingo is a more apt comparison.) I'm not crazy about how they look. Do we really need more sneering quasi-villains? Part of what makes those "two Eggman lackeys" fun in any Sonic adaptation is how goofy and un-serious they are.

It doesn't sound like they'll be working for Eggman, or at least not to begin with.

“They’re independent agents, and more bullies than masterminds, but they’re tough enough to maybe become someone’s henchmen down the line.”

I'm sure Orbot and Cubot will remain Eggman's main dogsbodies.

Fang, however, was always meant to be the small-scale, occasionally-bumbling villain. Why we don't get him instead of Stinkachu and Pewcario is flummoxing, but that's nothing new. And I really do hope they drop the whole "Nacks and Weasels" nonsense; it's inevitable he'll be a pentadactyl, though, as that's in deference to a market this will never be made available to.

They're probably holding off on elements exclusive to "Classic Sonic" until the new comic is more established.

I'd definitely want to see Fang as a wild card solo agent again, rather than teaming up with other characters. Also hope that they fully embrace him being a jerboa, since it's actually congruent with his design and desert explorer outfit. Maybe just a small nod to his wolf heritage. (He was designed to be a jerboa, but SoJ's sales department decided he was half jerboa and half wolf. Then SoA decided he was a weasel.)

Interestingly, Nack was his intended name during development, but they decided to change it in Japan because it was too similar to their other new character, Knuckles ("Nakkuruzu").

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Oh, I assumed it was inspired by Knuckles, specifically this:



There is also a character named Fang in Sega's Dynamite Deka series. Which is neither here nor there (he debuted in 1996), but still somewhat amusing. He even has a purple theme and triangular white face ornamentation:

[Crazy Penguin]

Great game. Bizarre mid cut scene loading times on the Saturn version though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-RIxiYjS98&t=7m53s

[big_smile]

Interestingly, Nack was his intended name during development, but they decided to change it in Japan because it was too similar to their other new character, Knuckles ("Nakkuruzu").

Interesting! Where did that come from?

[Crazy Penguin]

Fang's creator, who is now a toy designer, mentioned it to a fan on Twitter a few months ago (after "like"-ing his fan art). Keep in mind that he was using online translation tools:

https://twitter.com/toumartcom/status/9 ... 8927423491

In development it was named NACK. However, it means that a character called KNUCKLES will appear in SONIC 3,

and I have to change my name because the pronunciations in Japan are similar. I think that we publicly invited names in Japanese magazines

However, in the United States it was told that KNUCKLES starting with K and NACK starting with N are differentiated.

He also answered a question about his clothes and four fingers:

He is interested in collecting what is shining. So I am doing something like an explorer. This is because the four fingers are mice.

[big_smile]

That's really interesting. Thanks! Out of interest, has he posted anything else of note? (Maybe I am just too old fashioned, but Twitter is a bit awkward to browse).

[Frieza2000]

http://www.gameinformer.com/themes/blog ... GroupKeys=

When I got on the original book, there was already something like 15 years of continuity. ... With IDW Sonic, we have the backdrop of the games to draw from, but there's no overhanging expectation with what the book should be; nobody's come before and set the tone or done something wacky. We can do whatever we want. We can go wherever we want because we have the same freedom that Sonic does to just run with it.

From the outset, I'm only considering the game material to draw from because you never know what the licenser wants represented or not. So, down the line, we might incorporate other older elements and fringes of the franchise, but for right now, it's that core game feel. Straightforward stories, lots of cinematic action early on. No long monologues or deep world building. No heavy focus on lore or backgrounds. It's focused on the adventure we have on hand and building on that.

This is surprising. Did Sega really give them carte blanche to do whatever they want? I expected them to cast it as much more of a promotional comic than what Archie had become, but it looks like Ian is going to tell whatever story he wants to using whatever characters he feels are needed rather than sticking with the 100+ characters the games already have. That's probably for the best. Limiting it to game tie-in comics would be boring, and even if they tried to stick close to what's considered established canon, we've got Iizuka redefining things on a whim so they'd run aground of the games eventually. Starting a new universe makes it much easier to work with, and if he wants a new personality type I'd much rather see him invent a new character than twist an existing one beyond recognition.

It also looks like the old Freedom Fighters are finally being put to rest. There wasn't so much as a nod to them in Forces, which already had the assets needed to make something resembling them and ample opportunities to throw them in the background (such as replacing one of the 5 copies of the same yellow rabbit from this scene), so without the comics they're probably gone for good.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

It's really fascinating what is and isn't considered kosher vis-a-vis Japan and tetradactyl characters. It's gotten a lot of attention recently and everyone's become an expert, but they often neglect that some prominent Japanese-created characters have four-fingered hands, most notably King Koopa and Yoshi. I vaguely recall reading that it's acceptable depending on how otherwise humanoid they might be (I wish I bookmarked that source.) I guess Fang rides that particular line.

Starting a new universe makes it much easier to work with, and if he wants a new personality type I'd much rather see him invent a new character than twist an existing one beyond recognition.

Agreed. As much as I am for economy of detail, if it wasn't the creator's intention then it's disrespectful.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

I'm not familiar with the licensing of the Sonic Archie comics, but is there anything stopping Archie from using their characters in their own comic series, or are they owned by Sega? (I recall Tetsuya Nomura mentioned in an interview once that all Kingdom Hearts characters, including his own original characters, are the property of Disney. Didn't know if Sonic Archie works like that, too.)

[G.Silver]

I believe they are all owned by Sega. Here's a post from another forum where someone gathered up some relevant quotes:

http://www.sonicsatam.com/forums/index. ... 48&p=44231

Here's from Ian Flynn:

"Ultimately SEGA owns everything in the book. If it's associated with Sonic in the book, it is by extension SEGA's. From my understanding, that is why BioWare could so freely emulate the Dark Legion for the Marauders [in Sonic Chronicles]. I know there was some confusion elsewhere concerning rights to SatAM. As it was explained, SEGA owns the intellectual property—the characters and such—but DiC retains the rights to the animation. So you wouldn’t see SEGA reselling SatAM boxsets willy-nilly. Conversely, DiC wouldn’t be able to just up and make a new Sonic cartoon."

I think this is why that whole Ken Penders thing and killing off all his characters a while back was such a big deal. Sega was supposed to own any IP Archie created for the comic, but allegedly no one ever told Ken that and they never got it in writing.

[Frieza2000]

Archie claimed the paperwork was lost in a fire. Ken ended up getting ownership of a sizable number of characters, which he appears to have done nothing with in the last 5 years. Sega should still own the SatAM characters, and last year they won the lawsuit with Scott Fulop, so Mammoth Mogul should still be on the table, but I think they would rather see that whole era of the franchise fade into history.

[Crazy Penguin]

They're certainly never going to touch the pre-Flynn/Yardley Archie exclusive characters or concepts ever again. Whichever way you look at it, Archie fucked up when it came to getting their contracts in order with the '90s comic freelancers. That Gordian knot isn't worth the hassle.

I imagine IDW's Sonic plan will be similar to their approach to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - start off with the universal core of the brand and a few new twists, then bring back old favourites from secondary sources (Bebop, Rocksteady, Mondo Gecko etc) when their own series is more established. It's a good way of maintaining hype and interest rather than putting it all in issue 1. Bringing in Sally Acorn would have a bigger impact in #32 than it would in #2.

That's really interesting. Thanks! Out of interest, has he posted anything else of note? (Maybe I am just too old fashioned, but Twitter is a bit awkward to browse).

He doesn't really post much about his Sega days. I asked about Tails Adventure a little while back and he confirmed that he designed the enemies.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

He doesn't really post much about his Sega days. I asked about Tails Adventure a little while back and he confirmed that he designed the enemies.

I knew it! I don't suppose he was forthcoming on what animals the Battle Kukku are based on, if any?

Based on their name alone I was certain they are cuckoos, but they could just as well be kookaburras. I compared and contrasted the Japanese letters but neither are much if a match, however. It also crossed my mind that they could be hybrids like Fang, but now knowing that was not his idea that may not be the case.

"Burra" sounds vaguely like "battle"...

Fukurokov seems to different species altogether, suggesting a Babylonian-esque menagerie making the rank and file. Or he could be the odd one out. Considering how out of left field Fang being a jebora was (I still think he more closely resembles a bettong), Fuku could be something as obscure as a nightjar or even a potoo.

[Crazy Penguin]

He doesn't really post much about his Sega days. I asked about Tails Adventure a little while back and he confirmed that he designed the enemies.

I knew it! I don't suppose he was forthcoming on what animals the Battle Kukku are based on, if any?

He didn't specify. I didn't want to pester him with any follow-up questions. (He apologised for how the manual illustrations turned out due to his inexperience with Photoshop at the time.)

Based on their name alone I was certain they are cuckoos, but they could just as well be kookaburras. I compared and contrasted the Japanese letters but neither are much if a match, however.

I'm 99% sure it's supposed to be Battle Cock. The skull and cross bones on Great Battle Kukku XV's hat has a red comb on it.

And "battle cock" like a fighting cock. In Japan cockfighting is called 闘鶏 (Tōkei). Apparently the 闘 character can translate to "battle" and 鶏 is "chicken". Since Sonic characters all have English words for their names, Battle Cock probably sounded right to them, even though the actual English language term would be gamecock or fighting cock.

Fukurokov seems to different species altogether, suggesting a Babylonian-esque menagerie making the rank and file. Or he could be the odd one out.

Fukurō (フクロウ) means owl. I got the impression that the army is made out of a bunch of different bird species.

Considering how out of left field Fang being a jebora was (I still think he more closely resembles a bettong)

Nah. A battong does have a thicker tail, but Fang's long ears are a distinctly jerboa trait.

[G.Silver]

So did anyone get these? The second book is out. I was thinking of picking them up but when they revealed everything was taking place in the "aftermath" of Sonic Forces my interest took a nose dive. However, now that there are articles up saying issue 1 has sold out and I /can't/ get one, now of course I kinda want it. Anybody have any thoughts on it?

[Frieza2000]

Ee-yup. Iiiiit's a Forces tie-in. No thanks, IDW.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

It's the least of these problems, but dafuq is up with the inking on that first one? Yikes.