Why I can't consider Sonic Battle Cannon

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Why I can't consider Sonic Battle Cannon

Postby Frieza2000 » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:31 am

It has come to my attention that the general opinion of Sonic Battle’s story on this board ranges from good to ok. I cannot understand this. I thought it was the beginning of the end for Sonic (I played this before Heroes). I’m writing this not to convince anyone to agree with me, but to find the reason for your opinions.

To summarize all of the below, I have two problems with the story: Characterization and plot. In other words, the whole thing.

After playing through this a second time, I realize that the characterization wasn’t as bad as I thought. The reason I felt turned off by it was because almost every character interaction is comedic filler, and I’ve always considered Sonic storylines to be about action, not comedy. The personalities weren’t done wrong for the most part; I just found the situations they were in unfitting. Still, there’re a few things I’d like to cover.

It’s worth noting that before this game, Sonic characters displayed little personality. Small hints at vague personal traits and beliefs were made in instruction manuals, but nothing else. The Sonic Adventure games, the first games to feature in-game dialogue, still managed to avoid deeply defining the cast. This time around, though, they’ve taken one or two personality traits from each character and focused on them. Here’re my thoughts on that:

-For Sonic, it’s his irresponsibility and attitude. In Sonic’s case, they got it right. I had no problems with him.

-I forget who I’m quoting, but in this game Tails has been upgraded from mechanically inclined to Wile E. Coyote. I’m not happy about that. I can understand how you might disagree with me on this, so I won’t go deep into it. I just think it’s too cartoonish. Other than his mind, they focused on the fact that he’s still a kid, which is good. Maybe a bit too much sometimes, like here:
Tails: But you’re always so mean to us! And I’m not supposed to talk to strangers!
But that’s a tough act to balance and overall they did fine.

-Knuckles, I had problems with.

Knuckles: !!! That robot! That’s the one who’s been robbing the jewelry stores around town.

Sonic: H-hey... Just chill for a second Knuckles! This robot is powered by “Chaos Emeralds...â€￾

[Knuckles raises is fist in anger.]

Knuckles: Shut up! I’m going to tear this rustbucket apart to teach it a lesson!

Sonic: Oh, boy...There’s no stopping Knuckles once he gets all riled up. OK, listen up Emerl. This guy won’t listen to anybody who is weaker than he is. So if we want to talk to him about “Chaos Emeralds,â€￾ you’ve got to beat him first.

Knuckles: What is this thing Sonic?

[Sonic looks confused.]

Sonic: Beats me!

[Knuckles look angry again.]

Knuckles: You can’t fool me, Sonic!


Knuckles is passionate, not belligerent. He likes to fight, but he won’t start one over nothing. I know this scene is just an excuse for a battle with Knuckles, but it’s still out of character.


Knuckles: Yo, Emerl! What’s up?

Emerl: ... ... ...

Knuckles: Oh, you don’t wanna talk to me, eh?

[Tails looks ready to fight.]

Tails: Knuckles, we have no time for this right now!

Emerl: No time! No time! No time! No time!

[Knuckles raises a fist.]

Knuckles: Why you little...

Emerl: You little! You little! You little! You little!

[Tails looks upset.]

Tails: Hey, stop it, Emerl!

[Emerl goes into a fight with Knuckles]

Knuckles: I wonder what that woman is up to now. Hey, Emerl, did she pull any
kind of tricks on you?

Emerl: ... ... ...

[Knuckles raises a fist.]

Knuckles: Hey, why won’t you listen to me?!?


Not only is this more belligerence, it’s stupidity. Knuckles is gullible, but he’s not stupid. He learns. And he’s seen robots before; they’re not some mystery to him. He should’ve been able to figure out by now that it isn’t talking to him because it’s a brainless machine, not because it’s trying to insult him. But it’s funny, and 90% of this game is comedic filler.

Knuckles: The harder he trains, the stronger he gets? Here’s a warrior after my own heart! I must help him reach his full potential! He’s with Sonic?! If Sonic trains him, he’ll never grow strong! They’re probably at “Tails’ Labâ€￾. I must find them!


...so when did Knuckles become a pansy?

Emerl: Hello! Where the heck have you been?

Rouge: Looks like your little baby has got quite a mouth on him.

Knuckles: Hey, it's not me, blame Sonic!

Rouge: Quick to blame others, as usual, I see.

...

Knuckles: All right, all right. I'll be more careful.


...so when did Knuckles become a pansy?

Emerel: Thank you very much! Looks like you've got a use after all!

Rouge: Well, I never...! How exactly are you raising him, anyway?

Knuckles: S-sorry...


...so when did Knuckles become a pansy?

On a side note, I think it’s about time they tone down on Knuckles’s gullibility. At first, he’d never had contact with the outside world and was naïve, but he’s been around awhile now and should be able to see through at least some tricks. It would’ve impressed me if they’d done that, but instead they stuck with their comedic guns and poked fun at him.

-I didn’t like the whole ‘Emerl is our baby’ bit they did with Amy, and that’s all she does for the whole game. It felt like an episode of Sonic X. Not that Sonic X was terrible. But it was kiddy. And so is this gag.

-The only thing Cream has said before this game was 2 or 3 lines in Advance 2, so there’s nothing to screw up. She’s a filler character. I liked her development, though. Emerl’s refusal to fight and her gradual acceptance of fighting was one of the few good scenes.

-Rouge is just made for comedy. No need to touch her. No problems here.

We’ll get into Shadow later. Eggman was flawless.




After playing through a second time, I’ve found that the plot was much WORSE than I remembered. First of all, it was boring. 90% of the game is comedic filler. The entire chapters of Tails (except for one scene), Rouge, Knuckles, Amy, and Cream are pure filler. Their only purpose is to establish a relationship between Emerl and all the characters, which I assume is also supposed to create an emotional attachment between the player and him. On top of that, far too many characters and concepts that should have been put to bed are shamelessly revived to exploit their original popularity. And the story itself repeatedly makes no sense.

You’re probably expecting me to bring up the setting. Emerald Town. Rouge owns a Casino. Amy and Cream share an apartment. Knuckles on Holly Summit. While that’s all annoying, it’s bearable.

What really got to me was all of this:



Sonic: Man, I’m so bored.

[Sonic looks surprised when he sees the robot.]

Sonic: Hmm? What’s this? It’s a robot!

Robot: ... ... ...

Sonic: Are you all right?

Robot: ... ... ...

Sonic: I wonder if it’s busted. Look at all this dust. I wonder how long it’s
been here. Hey! Are you all right?

[The robot looks around.]

Robot: ... ... ...

Sonic: Hey it’s moving now! Need any help? Can you walk by yourself?

Robot: ... ... ...

Sonic: Can’t speak, eh? Well it figures. Can’t expect much from ol’ Eggman.
Well, let’s get you over to Tails’ first, so we can help you out!

Right from the get-go, this game doesn’t make sense. Since when is Sonic concerned with the well-being of Eggman’s robots? Normally, he either destroys them to free the animal trapped inside or destroys them to prevent the havoc whose creation is their sole purpose for existing. When did they become good guys? And don’t you say Gamma. Gamma was a pink bird, not a robot, and the only reason it wasn’t destroyed on sight was because the bird overcame the mental inhibitors/ programming /whatever with maternal love and helped Amy. And even after Amy told Sonic about the good Gamma had done, he still hesitated to let it go. Now he wants to FIX Eggbots he finds lying around?

Tails: Well, I know two things. 1: it’s powered by “Chaos Emeraldsâ€￾. Once we
give it more “Chaos Emeraldsâ€￾, it will regain its energy and even be able to
speak properly.

Sonic: Maybe that’s why Eggman...

Tails: My next discovery about this robot is even more stunning. This robot is
capable of adopting attack techniques either by observation, or by being
attacked by the attack techniques.

...

Sonic: Hmph... It all sound so complicated, but basically this robot has the
ability to learn our moves right? If that’s the case, then let’s start
training it! Let’s do a “KO Battleâ€￾! The one who gets “10 KOsâ€￾ first wins, OK?
Are you ready, Tails?

...

Tails: “Chaos Emeralds...â€￾ Hey, Sonic! Let’s go see Knuckles!

Sonic: Hey! Yeah. Knuckles might be able to help us out! Especially since he’s
familiar with “Chaos Emeraldsâ€￾! OK, are you ready, Emerl?

So basically the conversation went like this:

Sonic: Hey Tails, check out this robot.
Tails: It looks like Eggman built it. It runs on Chaos Emeralds and has the power to absorb our fighting moves.
Sonic: I see...hey Tails, how about we give it all 7 Chaos Emeralds and teach it all our fighting moves...ya know...just to see what happens.
Tails: Cool!

They have no idea how it’s programmed. At this point they still believe that Eggman created it.
Tails: Your structural data will tell us who your creator was, what you were created for, and so on... Since I already know you were created by Eggman, I need to be on my guard.
I know that Sonic is supposed to be somewhat irresponsible and that Tails is somewhat submissive to Sonic, but this is either ridiculously exaggerated or just plain nonsense.

Sonic: Hey, there’s another robot over there!

Tails: Sonic! It’s another one of Eggman’s robots!

Sonic: Hey, it looks just like Gamma!

Tails: Hey, long time no see, Gamma! ... ...

Strange that they’d remember its name. They only heard Eggman shout it once. They never met it after that. Why would they consider it a friend? And if it were really Gamma, wouldn’t they want to free the animal inside? Anyway, including a Gamma rip-off (not even the original character, just a look alike...) screams unoriginality and milking past success.

Tails: Gee, that scared me!

Sonic: I guess this isn’t Gamma...

Tails: I wonder why it tried to attack us...

Sonic: Well Tails, I kinda raped his mom back on the Egg Carrier–IT’S A FREAKIN’ BADNIK! WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?!

Knuckles: !!! That robot! That’s the one who’s been robbing the jewelry stores around town.

Knuckles: I know this because I have cable now. Guarding the Master Emerald got boring.

Sonic: Sound like a plan! So how would we reset him?

[Rouge crosses her arms.]

Rouge: I... I don’t know.

Sonic: What? You don’t know?

Tails: So all we have to do is find all 7 “Chaos Emeraldsâ€￾ and then find a way to reset him!

Rouge: Then, he’ll be free, once and for all!

...or he’ll do what he was designed to do: kill us all. Are they all naïve or stupid?

President: An ancient weapon, “Gizoidâ€￾, which was sealed and misplaced 50 years ago, has been recovered by Eggman...

Come on, this is the first game with a story they’d released since SA2. You’d think they could wait at least one game before rehashing the exact same story.

Eggman: I used the raw data from that robot to build a much better robot. Its name is E121 “Phiâ€￾!

...

These guys are powered by pieces of the “Chaos Emeraldâ€￾. I created
“Phiâ€￾ by using Emerald shards from the Chaos Emerald I crushed!

This is just a minor point, but breaking the emeralds makes me uncomfortable. I’m sure you can imagine the reasons why. I’m not saying this was detrimental to the game; it just seemed somewhat blasphemous.

Knuckles: Gamma, is that you? Last time, you ran off without even answering me

...last time you didn’t ask any questions. Last time you didn’t know or care who the robot was.

Knuckles: Look what we found!

Tails: Hey! The last two “Emerald shardsâ€￾! I have enough shards to make a whole “Chaos Emeraldâ€￾!!! Hold on one second...

So...Tails can magically reassemble the Chaos Emeralds? Wouldn’t that be Knuckles’s department?

Gamma: The “Emerald shardâ€￾ is leaving me...

[“1â€￾ “Emerald shardâ€￾ acquired. “Chaos Emeraldâ€￾ created]

Cream: Oh! The combined “Chaos Emeraldâ€￾ has been absorbed by Emerl!

...what? Now all of a sudden the emerald shards can just combine themselves? That’s some lazy writing, man.

Shadow: I’m not here to steal him, I’m here to welcome him as a fellow weapon of war.

He’s only been in one game, yet they still manage to make him out of character. More on this in a minute.

Sonic: I’ve heard that he who collects 7 “Chaos Emeraldsâ€￾ will be granted unlimited energy. So, are you trying to tell me that awakening Emerl is dangerous?

Stupid or naïve? I’m still deciding.

Sonic: Maybe you’ve forgotten, but I seem to recall you saving humanity at one point.

Shadow: ...that was for Maria.

On a side note, this would indicate that he’s not a clone after all (or that the real one is alive), because he remembers final hazard. For it to be a clone, Eggman would have to have done some kind of neural scan to copy his memories, and that would have to take place after SA2.

Shadow: No, you are wrong. We were created as weapons. If the people of this world ever want peace, they must destroy us.

All you guys who were complaining about Shadow being too dark and whiny in the other topic? If this is cannon, I agree now. I don’t like this.

Sonic: And one more thing! Rouge said that there’s a keyword that can free Emerl! If we could find out what it is, Emerl could become just a normal robot!

Shadow: Ha! Such hopeless dreams... Weapons have no need for a conscience. Freedom? What use is a weapon that does not follow orders?!

You mean like you? Are you a weapon or not? Or do you just consider yourself useless? ‘Cause I do. You were supposed to die a meaningful death. Instead you’re dying the slow death of a meaningless existence.

Sonic: All right, all right! Just take Emerl already! If you’re not going to listen to me, then do whatever you want.

Didn’t you just fight Shadow a short while ago to prevent him from getting this robot? Haven’t you consumed your every waking thought with the empowerment and safekeeping of this thing? And now you just give it up? All that depressing talk must’ve made him apathetic.

Shadow: Tell me... What am I? What is the Gizoid? We were created as weapons, so why is it that we have hearts? Why do we have souls?! What the heck are we?!

Is it just me, or did he never seem concerned with this before? In fact, I don’t think he’s ever considered himself a weapon. He was a life form who acted on his own, not a machine following some programming. In SA2, he tried to kill everyone because his memory was fouled up, not because he felt compelled to do so from an order from his master.

Emerl: You sure about that? I don’t want you whining that you didn’t have your “Chaos Emerald.â€￾

Shadow: I no longer need it. I have Maria in my heart.

Chaos control without a Chaos Emerald? Blasphemy. Or maybe not. Sonic and Shadow’s battle in SA2 leaves that open.

Emerl: (Long speech about being happy and loving everyone)

Shadow: Hmph! There’s no need for a weapon to have feelings. ...this is ridiculous! I’m leaving!

What? After that whole big speech Rouge gave and that stuff about the heart of Maria, you still can’t accept having a soul? Or was he just looking for an excuse to get away from them? Doesn’t sound good either way.

Gerald’s Journal:
I have heard there was an accident at the research facility... ... ... Everything...Everything is gone. My own Maria's name was among the list of casualties. My beloved granddaughter...They tell me her parting words were 'Bring hope to humanity.' I have decided that the keyword to activate the Gizoid's free-willed emotions-based AI program will be those very words. 'Bring hope to all humanity.' My poor, poor Maria...

First of all, we’ve heard the journal entry where he records first hearing about Maria’s death. He sounded much more distraught. Second, I’m pretty sure he went insane faster than that.

Gerald’s Journal: A heritage of the past I dug out, “Gizoidâ€￾ ...And the ultimate life form I created by my own hands, Shadow... I equipped both with “heart.â€￾ If all powers are not what is to be obtained for oneself, but what is to be born from hearts that yearn for someone, I believe all conflicts should cease to exist. Please...If there is anyone listening to my prayers... bring hope to humanity."

We KNOW he went insane faster than that. Maria is dead! She meant everything to him! It shouldn’t take more than a week for him to start losing it. Really, how can you go from begging humanity to stop wars one minute to plotting Armageddon the next? He isn’t supposed to be giving Shadow a heart. He’s supposed to be telling him to kill everyone. And why not Gizoid too? Why not unleash him instead of Shadow? Or both?

Eggman: Um, The Phis were all destroyed. Chaos and Gamma are useless too.

Um, when did Chaos get here? Um, and when did he start working for Eggman? Um, I’m going to assume this is a translation error or something.

Eggman: Hah hah hah!!! Enough with the small talk! I have no use for this pile of junk anyway! I have completed the perfect weapon! I have installed the “Final Egg Blasterâ€￾ on the ultimate planet destroying battleship...â€￾the Death Eggâ€￾!!! Haaaah hah hah hah!

Score one more for the rehashers.

Tails: But something’s not right. Why would he be so out and out honest about his plans? Even the government keeps some things a secret... It feels too deliberate... Like he’s trying to lure us into following him. I’ve got a bad feeling about this.

Thanks for the blatant foreshadowing, Tails! But doesn’t Eggman always announce his plans? Doesn’t he always dare Sonic to stop him? Isn’t that half of why he’s always trying to take over the world anyway? To play with Sonic?

Tails: Anyway, I’ll go fetch a warp transporter so we can reach the battleship, so go to “Holly Summitâ€￾ and I’ll meet you there!

Wow, screw Chaos Control! All we need is one of these warp things and we can go anywhere on the planet and the surrounding atmosphere instantly, even if you have no idea what’s there and teleport yourself into solid matter!

Knuckles: You came, as expected...

Sonic: Knuckles... What on Earth is this...?

Knuckles: When the battleship appeared, the “Estuaryâ€￾ instantly froze over,
for no reason,
and “Chaosâ€￾ appeared. He’s just sitting there, guarding the “Death Egg.â€￾

Let’s count: The whole 50 years ago story, Gerald and the Ark, Shadow and Chaos Control, Gamma, the Death Egg, and now Chaos.

Knuckles: Chaos is the guardian god of the Chao. He only shows himself in times of great crisis. Looks like we’re in deep trouble this time!

This has gotta be the worst line in the game. I’ll let them get away with calling Chaos a god, but what’s he doing here? His purpose was the guard the chao and the emerald shrine. Neither are here. And didn’t Chaos and Tikal ascend into magical happy land at the end of SA1, putting their spirits to rest? This is the most blatant cameo of all, and it doesn’t even make sense. And Chaos’s moves suck anyway. Writers gots-ta die, yo.

Sonic: Hm... So that’s the “Death Egg,â€￾ huh? I can see why the old guy was so excited... That thing’s huge!

I say as though I haven’t seen it in 5 games already.

(As soon as you get on the Death Egg)
Tails: Emerl? Can you hear me? We’re watching from a monitor over here!
(fails to indicate direction)
We can project our voices to your location, so we’ll be cheering you on! Amy, Cream, Shadow, and Rouge should be here soon, too!

Can’t this chapter go a single conversation without pissing me off? I know it’s just more magical technology from Tails, but they aren’t even trying to explain it anymore.

Eggman: ... Hah! NOW!!! Launch “Final Egg Blasterâ€￾!!!

[Screen flashes white, ground shakes]

Emerl: Urk...Eggman...What are you doing?!

...

Eggman: Haaaah hah hah hah! Look! All the stars over there have been destroyed! How do you feel Gizoid? Are you ready to start capturing energy???

...
Ok...
I’m not even going to go into the fact that those stars are light years apart.
Or the fact that a blast that could do that would have enough gravity to be classified as a black hole and demolish everything around before it left the ship.
Or even that those stars are trillions of light years away, and even if the blast could instantly reach them, we wouldn’t know that the stars had been destroyed for trillions of years, or if they were even alive at the time of the blast to begin with.
No. We’ve already established that this game is above the laws of physics.

But you’re telling me,
That Eggman built a weapon
Without using a single Chaos Emerald
That can destroy an unknown number of star systems with a single shot.
And he’s dicking around with this Gizoid...why?

ANNIHILATE IT! You don’t need its power! Just blow the emeralds to kingdom come and nobody can stop you!

Emerl: Launch “Final Egg Blasterâ€￾ at earth...

Eggman: What!?

...

Eggman: Knock it off, Gizoid! If the earth is gone, I won’t be able to achieve world domination!

And he wasn’t even planning to use all that power! Isn’t the power to blow up a solar system enough to bluff your way into world domination?!

Sonic: What’s this?! A “Master Emeraldâ€￾! Where did this come from?

The Master Emerald. Another translation issue, no doubt. And where DID it come from? Everybody’s standing right there, and Angel Island is nowhere in the game. I wish I got paid to write nonsense.

Sonic: Emerl has...disappeared...
Magically.
Shadow: This was Gerald’s final program... Should a weapon go out of control, the weapon will terminate itself... ... ... ... It is my desire to bring hope to humanity. I can’t stand it...

Cream: Sob... Emerl...

Sonic: Hey-hey! Don’t you cry! Cream!

Cream: Sonic!

Sonic: Come on, don’t cry! Emerl... is right here!

[Shard floats down]

Cream: ... Yes! As part of the “Emerald Shardsâ€￾...

Did he disappear or explode? Are those shards of a Chaos or the Master Emerald? And are they being artlessly symbolic or literal?

Tails: Someday... If the world finally knows true peace... If this world no longer needs weapons or wars... If we can make this world a truly peaceful place when we’re older... If we can make a world where there’s only laughter... Do you think we’ll be able to play with Emerl again?

Sonic: ... ... ... ...Yeah! Defiantly!

The end. The Death Egg is still floating up there with it’s impossibly powerful cannon, the Master Emerald is in pieces on the floor, and the fate of the Chaos Emeralds is somewhat ambiguous. None of that is really bad; I’m just pointing it out.

I interpret the theme of the story to be that no matter how hard you try you can’t change what you are. It might seem like you can for a while, but you can’t. You’re doomed. And if you don’t like it, you can die like Emerl. It’s kind of a stark contrast from ‘If you try, you can do anything’ and ‘Dreams come true’ and ‘Wishes are eternal.’




Not only does the story contradict previous games, it contradicts itself. It’s a cartoonish comedy that isn’t funny, forced on top of some dark theme that doesn’t belong. Grammar errors.

This is not good writing.

To quote myself after I first finished the game:
As I played on, I became more and more discouraged by the Sonic Team’s newfound incompetence. Every element of the story took away from my enjoyment and left me ultimately sorry I’d wasted time playing it. If this is all they’re capable of, maybe Sonic Team should go back to making games without storylines. ... If this game represents the future of Sonic, then I think it’s time I left it behind. I hope I‘m not alone.


I don’t think I can ever consider this cannon. It was after this game that I first used the phrase that I’ve been using to describe Sonic Team’s every move since,

Image

Now can anybody please tell me how this story is OK? Or even any better than Heroes?
Last edited by Frieza2000 on Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Spazz » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:32 am

...tl;dr
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Postby -wyvern » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:40 am

I think the writers on sonic battle were the only talented guys in the whole project - although they had no idea how the characters are supposed to act, at least there was no "We are all Sonic Heroes!". But since the latest sonic game I played was Sonic 3D, I don't pay attention to story info since then anyway.
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Postby Kishi » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:04 pm

You dirty bastard!
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Postby Crazy Penguin » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:55 pm

Canon, not cannon.
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Postby Light Speed » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:56 pm

That is one long ass post, and since I didn't play Sonic Battle even if I did read it, it wouldn't matter. I'm still making this useless post though.
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Postby SegaSonic » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:02 pm

Its like The new Games are a New Universe..that even Contradicts itself.

Sonic Talked as if he never had seen the Death Egg before, it sickens me!

and the Fact that that Moron director Iruka Changed Team Chaotix into New Characters Has be Flaming with Rage! Not to mention that their new looks are Total CRAP!

and Metal was Treated like Garbage in Heroes, I hated it!

*Sigh*
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Postby Green Gibbon! » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:11 pm

Whoever started using the word "canon" in this context, anyway? I hear it all the time now, and I'd like to slap him.
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Postby Double-S- » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:17 pm

tldr
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Postby chriscaffee » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:17 pm

I guess I have a few comments.

1: Sonic's stupidity

So Sonic assumes that Emerl is a creation of Eggman's and decides to help him out. He is also a cocky little shit and has become somewhat soft as of late. In SA he fails to destroy Gamma at Amy's whim. In SA he decides to challenge Chaos rather then just going with the easy solution of locking him up for another few thousand years. In SA2 he lets Eggman get away after the Last Episode scenario, despite all the evil that Eggman has done, and probably will still do. In SH, he doesn't finish Metal when he has the chance and allows him to call a rematch "anytime."

In other words, Sonic is the hero that refuses to take life. He rarely ever shows anger (only times that comes to mind are towards the conclusion of his story in SA and when he gets arrested because of Shadow in SA2) and is really confident in his abilities, such that he thinks nothing of walking into traps or helping his foes.

2: Knuckles is a pansy.

There was an allusion that Knuckles and Rouge had a "thing" in SA2 so he could be a bit weak in the knees when around her and thus not act so tough.

3: Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald

In the original Sonic the Hedgehog manual, it is stated that the Chaos Emeralds distribute their energy to all living creatures. Depending on their output, it could be possible to use Chaos Control without having an emerald on your person. It could also explain why Eggman uses animals in his robots, he could use them as a medium for drawing out CE energy.

4: Shadow's Angst

Shadow believed he was the Ultimate Lifeform and was fulfilling Maria's wish by destroying those who took her innocent life. In the end of the game he comes to realize that he may or may not have been the ULF but he was designed as a weapon and he was made to betray Maria's final wish. This could set up some massive inconsistent internal conflict within him.

Again, I've never played Battle, so I don't know how much water any my comments hold, but I figured you wanted to bat a few ideas around.
Last edited by chriscaffee on Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Spazz » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:19 pm

chriscaffee wrote:3: Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald

In the original Sonic the Hedgehog manual, it is stated that the Chaos Emeralds distribute their energy to all living creatures. Depending on their output, it could be possible to use Chaos Control without having an emeral on your person. It could also explain why Eggman uses animals in his robots, he could use them as a medium for drawing out CE energy.
0_o Did you think that up by <i>yourself</i>?!
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Postby chriscaffee » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:22 pm

Uh yeah. Why? Were you being sarcastic or what?
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Postby Locit » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:23 pm

Why I don't particularly care one way or the other:

I... just don't, is all. It's a story, which I enjoyed. Concerning Knuckles' idiocy, they wanted a reason for Emerl and Tails to fight Knuckles. You don't have to take it as character development, just as a setup for a brief fight.
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Postby Delphine » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:54 pm

Crazy Penguin wrote:Canon, not cannon.

Goddamnit, I wanted to say that.
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Postby Dache » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:26 pm

tl;dr
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Postby Baba O'Reily » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:30 pm

WALL OF TEXT.
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Postby Protodude » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:50 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but what does canon mean?
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Postby Tsuyoshi-kun » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:57 pm

It refers to something that's in the overall storyline of a movie/video game/etc. For example, Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Knuckles are all canon (official) Sonic games, as are Sonic Adventures 1 and 2. Spinoff games, link Spinball and 3-D Blast, are not part of Sonic canon, as they are not related to the main plot of the series.

It's much like every Mario game that's been released since 1996. The only one that actually means adds to the Mario universe is Super Maior Sunshine. All the others are party/golf/tennis/pinball spinoff games.
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Postby Baba O'Reily » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:57 pm

Motherfucker posted before me. So, here's a picture of a teddy bear:
Image
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Postby Tsuyoshi-kun » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:58 pm

Aw! How cute. Thanks =D
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Postby The Doc » Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:47 pm

Well, thanks a fucking lot! I just bought this game and you ruined it for me!

*steals teddy bear and shoves it up Frieza's peehole*
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Postby Anon » Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:22 pm

chriscaffee wrote:3: Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald

In the original Sonic the Hedgehog manual, it is stated that the Chaos Emeralds distribute their energy to all living creatures. Depending on their output, it could be possible to use Chaos Control without having an emerald on your person. It could also explain why Eggman uses animals in his robots, he could use them as a medium for drawing out CE energy.

Slightly expanding upon that:

While other animals might have a connection with the Chaos Emeralds, Flickies in particular naturally have a stronger connection than most. Eggman finds out about this connection, and shoves them into every other Badnik that comes his way; hence why they've popped out of said machines in all but a few of the Sonic games. (The birds going Super in Sonic 2 and 3 might have just been because of shared palettes or whatever, but Super Tails in S3&K cast out that notion.)

On a side-note, it would be cool if there was a Sonic game that touched down upon the Flickies connection with the Emerald (3D Blast doesn't count); it's too bad that Sega has all but forgotten about the little buggers.
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Postby plasticwingsband » Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:34 pm

I agree with you completely Freiza. Aside from the fact that the characterization is off and the storyline is rehashed for the umpteenthed time, the game just isn't fun to play. I think the best word for summing up Sonic Battle is monotonous.

I believe it's pretty much impossible to have a fighting game that's actually fun when you're limited to 4 buttons, and SB was a good indicator of that.
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Postby Spazz » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:51 pm

Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:It refers to something that's in the overall storyline of a movie/video game/etc.
More specifically:

canon
n 1: a rule or especially body of rules or principles generally established as valid and fundamental in a field or art or philosophy
(If that went over your head, it means "canon"=the <i>real</i> truth, and it can refer to any "field or art or philosophy")
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Postby Frieza2000 » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:39 pm

chriscaffee wrote:1: Sonic's stupidity

So Sonic assumes that Emerl is a creation of Eggman's and decides to help him out. He is also a cocky little shit and has become somewhat soft as of late. In SA he fails to destroy Gamma at Amy's whim. In SA he decides to challenge Chaos rather then just going with the easy solution of locking him up for another few thousand years. In SA2 he lets Eggman get away after the Last Episode scenario, despite all the evil that Eggman has done, and probably will still do. In SH, he doesn't finish Metal when he has the chance and allows him to call a rematch "anytime."

In other words, Sonic is the hero that refuses to take life.


Personally, I don't have a problem with this. If the threat a villain posed were imminent, I'm sure he'd kill it. The fact that he takes to many swings at Eggman says as much. His battle with the Egg Viper is a good example. Sonic gave no regard to keeping Eggman alive. It's a miracle he escaped that massive explosion. But once the immediate threat is gone, he feels no reason to pursue the villain (like Goku...I just can't resist). I think it fits him fine. It's how I'd always pictured him, anyway. But that doesn't apply to this situation. He finds a nameless bot that can't even talk and starts treating it with deep sympathy. That's not benevolence, it's nonsense.

chriscaffee wrote:He rarely ever shows anger (only times that comes to mind are towards the conclusion of his story in SA and when he gets arrested because of Shadow in SA2) and is really confident in his abilities, such that he thinks nothing of walking into traps or helping his foes.


Yeah, calm and laid back. Too cool to worry. Whimsical. I think this quality fits fine as well.


chriscaffee wrote:2: Knuckles is a pansy.

There was an allusion that Knuckles and Rouge had a "thing" in SA2 so he could be a bit weak in the knees when around her and thus not act so tough.


Yes, it was supposed to be a little joke about the two of them being parents and Emerl being the child (wasn't readily obvious, you had to think about it for a moment). It's just more humor at his expense. And come to think of it his old profile says he's weak around girls, so maybe it's not so bad.

chriscaffee wrote:In the original Sonic the Hedgehog manual, it is stated that the Chaos Emeralds distribute their energy to all living creatures. Depending on their output, it could be possible to use Chaos Control without having an emerald on your person. It could also explain why Eggman uses animals in his robots, he could use them as a medium for drawing out CE energy.


An interesting thought. There really hasn't been any mention of the emeralds distributing energy since that manual though, so I doubt it's what the writers were thinking. Anyway, I'd prefer to write that off as an old idea. Perhaps the emeralds did once imbue all life with energy, maybe while they were on the altar with the Master Emerald, but I don't think it's still going on.

chriscaffee wrote:In the end of the game he comes to realize that he may or may not have been the ULF but he was designed as a weapon and he was made to betray Maria's final wish. This could set up some massive inconsistent internal conflict within him.


I really don't think he was 'designed' as a weapon. Why give a weapon free will and sympathy? Shadow made friends with Maria before Gerald allegedly gives him a heart. If you believe those memories of her were planted to make him seek revenge, then explain the presence of the 'Maria begging Shadow to save everyone' memory. It seems much more likely that his memories were tampered with, not fabricated, and the 'completion' of Shadow following the Ark incident (mentioned in the journals) refers to Gerald screwing with his mind.

Regardless, Shadow doesn't WANT to believe he has a soul. He wants to be a weapon with no hope of happiness and whatever. Sonic suggests that he's in denial. Maybe he's just antisocial and it's all an act to keep people away.

And thanks for at least tossing something up. You don't really need to have played the game; the quotes speak for themselves in regards to my grievances.

-wyvern wrote:I think the writers on sonic battle were the only talented guys in the whole project


Which speaks volumes of the game. Consider the graphics department. I found the reuse of Advance 2 sprites to be symbolic considering all the reuse going on in the story.

The Doc wrote:Well, thanks a fucking lot! I just bought this game and you ruined it for me!


I was going to include a spoilers thing, but I forgot. But shouldn't you have stopped reading once you saw me quoting the game?

Anon wrote:While other animals might have a connection with the Chaos Emeralds, Flickies in particular naturally have a stronger connection than most. Eggman finds out about this connection, and shoves them into every other Badnik that comes his way; hence why they've popped out of said machines in all but a few of the Sonic games.


Also interesting, but I blame the Flicky's ubiquity on Sonic Team's love of the game. On another side note, the birds appear to be interdimensional by nature (those exit doors look like they go to another world to me), which was probably the inspiration for 3D.

Anon wrote:On a side-note, it would be cool if there was a Sonic game that touched down upon the Flickies connection with the Emerald.


Well, they don't really have any connection with the emeralds yet. This is all speculation.

23 posts later, I still haven't heard anybody defend this game. Was I wrong when I said most of you liked it?
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