Sonic level design, a discussion.

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G.Silver
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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by G.Silver »

gsilver wrote:that's exactly why Sonic CD especially is labeled as having haphazard levels that don't appear to have been well-planned.
flash wrote:Mostly in agreement, up to the CD part. Even I can tell you CD's layouts feel a bit scattershot.
It's like I didn't see that coming at all!

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Ritz »

FlashTHD wrote:Most stages in Heroes, Team Dark extra missions notwithstanding, only take minutes in double digits to clear if you're absolutely awful. Same for Shadow; there are some that push it (6, 7 mins) but just one that can easily go over the 10 mark (Mad Matrix's bomb-hunting horrorfest).
If you're telling me you didn't spend more than 40 minutes on The Doom, then you're either a terrible, terrible liar, or you came to your senses and stopped playing the game long before you encountered that level. Central City was a bit of a timesink, too.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by FlashTHD »

Ritz wrote:
FlashTHD wrote:Most stages in Heroes, Team Dark extra missions notwithstanding, only take minutes in double digits to clear if you're absolutely awful. Same for Shadow; there are some that push it (6, 7 mins) but just one that can easily go over the 10 mark (Mad Matrix's bomb-hunting horrorfest).
If you're telling me you didn't spend more than 40 minutes on The Doom, then you're either a terrible, terrible liar, or you came to your senses and stopped playing the game long before you encountered that level. Central City was a bit of a timesink, too.
Ooh. Shall I fetch some screens from my current times and blow yer mind then?

But as in 40 minutes before making it to another stage? Maybe, I was going WTF in there for a while like anybody. I don't remember Central City being so horrible right off.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Locit »

I played Sonic 06 for about 15 minutes. Then I stopped!

It was nice.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Xyton »

Personally, I like the Sonic Adventure model for 3D Sonic games. There are action stages for the zoom parts and adventure fields for the slower in-betweens or just finding emblems or what have you. The idea of a fully free-roaming Sonic game just... doesn't seem like it would work to me. Sonic games have always been about speed or speed segments, so in my mind it makes more sense to design stages around that. (Of course, they could botch this model up, too. I'm looking at you, Sonic '06! My friends and I actually refer to it as Sonic Adventure 3, because it's got that "Action Stage / Adventure Field" thing going on, but where SA1 tried to fit some semblance of logic or a transition between adventure field and stage, SA3 uses magic mirrors -- an easy way out -- and where SA1 gave you a reason to explore, SA3 felt huge and empty and annoying. Or maybe that's just because I didn't want to wait for the load times.)

As far as stages go, I like the idea of more diverging paths. Maybe they could strike a balance between zoom sections with exploration ones, either within stages or across them. I personally kind of like the speedy sections of S3&K or SA and would be disappointed if they made a game at this point that didn't have any "free speed" some of the time, but I also would like some more plodding or exploration-centric Sonic levels. I think one of the things that made SCD so awesome was that it not only had levels with lots to explore, it gave you a reason to do so, as well as a time attack mode. Actually working that into some Sonic stages would really be great. And hey! Then we could have a Sonic game with enough diversity in the Sonic levels to... just play as Sonic! ¬_¬ Okay, okay, I suppose other characters wouldn't be so bad, but I'd like them to start by just getting Sonic right again, and then we can hope for the rest. ;P

My concern about multiple exits to a stage would be twofold: First, it would mess with time attacks, though you could just have a leaderboard for each exit, and second, I really wouldn't want to see another game with Shadow-style level flow -- tiers of stages. Ergo, if it were up to me, I'd say lots of diverging paths, but one exit. Regardless of path, though, the stages should be of reasonable length. I actually think SA3 would have had good stage length if every time it stopped to load a new area, it counted it as a new Act, so you could take a break or score / time attack just one act.

It would also be nice to return to the "Get Chaos Emeralds in special stages, then turn into Super Sonic in stages and get an extra last boss" thing, though I could see that skewing time attack leaderboards, which would have to be taken into account (AKA disable Super Sonic in time attack :P). I could also seeing that messing with level design, but still, it'd be neat. At the very least, I'd like to see more in the way of special stages. Heroes' bonus stages weren't that great, but it least they tried. :P

They could always just make a 2.5D Sonic game -- stick Sonic on a 2D path and make the game in 3D. That could work. Still, though, I really do think there's potential in a f'real 3D Sonic game, even if you're still on a track most of the time as you are in the recent games.

Lastly, this isn't level design, but another thing I think they could do to greatly improve Sonic games is cut back on the freakin' story! The transitions between stages in S3&K were kinda neat. The drawn-out dialogue between stages is more recent games is not. I didn't mind it so much in SA1, and even in SA2 it was okay, but when it starts to get in the way of the game, there's a problem.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by FlashTHD »

If they restore the adventure fields to respectability again, I can see Special Stages working fantastic. Maybe scatter the Special Rings in well-hidden areas that take some ingenuity (or occasional plot development) to find. Better yet: make 14 specials, two for each emerald or whatever. The extra ones can be just for fun and to give you more to do after the end credits, but harder to find and clear.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Xyton »

FlashTHD wrote:Better yet: make 14 specials, two for each emerald or whatever. The extra ones can be just for fun and to give you more to do after the end credits, but harder to find and clear.
That's actually a really cool idea. The harder, better-hidden stages could be for emblems / medals in stead of Emeralds. That way you're not keeping some of the Emeralds from the casual player with prohibitively hard special stages, but everyone else isn't bored. :)

So who's getting the contents of this thread to the Sega higher-ups? :B

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Post by Isuka »

Whoever he or she is, I hope he or she has a pretty good sense of humor and self-humiliation.

I understand P.P.A.'s point, the S3&K's stage layout complexity usually rules out the player's own decision to go FAST-FAST-FAAAAAST or take a break and explore the surroundings. Though sometimes you can still decide (like, when you slow down while running on the water's surface in Hydrocity), most of the time you don't have any other option but to follow the game's own pace in the same way both Sonic Adventure games did.
Unless you hired two different stage designers to do both types of stages and then mix them in the same game so anyone'll find a favourite stage, you'll have to decide which style suits you better. I find 3&K's balance between speed and exploration a tad better than CD's way too open stages, but yeah their concepts of how a Sonic game should play are really different from the get-go.
As in, recurring to the game's bugs?

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Omni Hunter »

I think open-ended levels are a fair idea, but I can't help thinking that maybe Sonic isn't built for free roaming as well as other characters could. For example, look in Sonic Adventure and you have level segments that are recycled and maybe jigged about a little bit for other characters such as the second stage of the highway level, with Knuckles the level felt like a free roaming experience but with sonic the same map had a more defined route with a couple of deviations if you had enough momentum to run on walls. I think it's almost a great balance, it could have had a couple of different routes for Sonic but I feel that level is on the right track as the map could be interpreted in totally different ways depending on your choice of character.

I just think free-roaming isn't exactly the right style for Sonic, a selection of routes as was already pointed out is enough, but leave the roaming to the characters that can afford to do so.

The only other option I can think of (and I highly doubt it would work) is where a side scrolling structure is used in a 3d world, like "Wild 9". The gameplay would be more akin to a 2d game but I can't help but feel that it would turn out like a pile of shite.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Arcade »

Sonic Rush Adventure proved that is good to use 2D for the levels and 3D for the bosses. Also, change most of the bottomless pits, for pits with spikes. I don’t care if you cant avoid death anyway, use spikes damn it!. And Sega if you are lazy, just do as 3D game with only Sonic, then hack it ten years later to include the others characters, Super Mario 64 DS anyone?.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Hybrid »

Arcade wrote: Also, change most of the bottomless pits, for pits with spikes. I don’t care if you cant avoid death anyway, use spikes damn it!.
That's really, really stupid.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Omni Hunter »

I'd rather bottomless/spike pits be made sneaky like they were back in Mystic Cave...

Actually, more spikes around in levels would be better too, not just for the deep pits.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Wooduck51 »

Omni Hunter wrote:I'd rather bottomless/spike pits be made sneaky like they were back in Mystic Cave...
Do not ever mention that damn pit again, it brings back unpleasant memories of being Super Sonic with loads of rings and having to wait very slowly to die.

On topic: If I remember correctly, in Sonic 1,2 and 3&knuckles there were few pits and spikes along the main "speedy path", but once you headed towards the bottom of the level in exploration you gave up speed for platforming, and instead found yourself performing death defying leaps over bottomless pits and sharp obstacles. There were plenty of exceptions of course, but the setup was nice, you could choose speed, exploration, or you could wander up and down the level and have both.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Arcade »

Ah, those where nice, my favorites where the Sonic 1 ones, mostly because it was the Sonic game I played more until Sonic Rush Adventure...

Sonic Rush Adventure was the first Sonic game Since Sonic Adventure that had me playing the same levels over and over again just for fun…

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by DackAttac »

Wooduck51 wrote:
Omni Hunter wrote:I'd rather bottomless/spike pits be made sneaky like they were back in Mystic Cave...
Do not ever mention that damn pit again, it brings back unpleasant memories of being Super Sonic with loads of rings and having to wait very slowly to die.
I think it's that pit in particular that makes me feel that the regular levels just aren't meant for Super Sonic, so if you're gonna have him at all, it sadly needs to be in one of those beaten-to-death boss battles.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Wooduck51 »

But that is the only level with such a pit, it as though it was meant to spite players.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Crazy Penguin »

I think we all hold some level of affection for that pit.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Hybrid »

Is my imagination playing tricks on me, or do I remember a deep pit in Sonic 2's Mystic Cave that didn't actually have spikes in it? I seem to remember having to either reset the game or wait for a time out to get out of it.

I also remember the spike pit though. That thing was the worst.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by DackAttac »

I'm unsure what kept me from doing so up until now, but I just sat down and read the entirety of this thread, and thought up a bunch of responses to everyone's thoughts. I spent an hour on that response, but then I just deleted it, out of feeling more like a nay-sayer than problem-solver. I will, however, leave up the one part about level length, as I felt there's a few nuggets of wisdom in that issue.

Hey Jude by the Beatles and Captain Jack by Billy Joel are both around 7 minutes in length. Both are awesome songs (in my book). Captain Jack has four verses, about eight lines apiece, just enough to paint the picture of a different aspect of this going-nowhere pothead's life before getting to the chorus. It's a slightly down-tempo, but simple tune for being 7 minutes, and I think I knew all the lyrics within a matter of weeks of hearing it for the first time. After the last chorus repeats for a second time, Billy ad-libs and fades. 7:18. Not a second wasted. Hey Jude has four really, really concise verses and two mid-length bridges, and moves at an upbeat pace. The actual song is done at about three minutes, ten seconds in, then Paul ushers in an entirely-too long coda that starts out triumphant but ultimately tests my patience after about two minutes of it, because I know there's going to be another two before it's over. 7:08. And it feels a lot longer than Captain Jack, simply because it took a strong element and wore it out into redundancy.

S3&K was not a victim to this too-long-for-its-own-good problem as a game, but rather on a stage-by-stage level. Sandopolis, everyone cites as being too long, but they really mean too hard. It's a challenge, but it's never redundant. Let's look at Act 2. There's a stretch where you mostly have to worry about racing the little lever-activated gates before time runs out and they close, while finding time to hit the lights to keep the ghosts at bay. Then after they tried some different orientations and inversions of that trick (by throwing in different obstacles, all also tailored for that zone), they move on to those little sand corks. Bust 'em lose and the place fills up like an hourglass. You can hit that light switch to keep from getting ghost-maimed if you want, but you'll run the risk of getting trapped in the upper chamber where that is. And then, it opens up to a looser and freer area, where it's standard platforming until you get to a puzzle which you have to figure out using your knowledge of all the gizmos that you've seen in that zone, tailored for that zone, sharing a visual and functional motif with that zone.

It all goes back to what Locit said in that topic that Isuka linked to. Your levels are not "too long" until you run out practical applications for all its components, gizmos, baddies, obstacles, etc. How about Carnival Night Zone? Anyone else hate that dump? It's all lights and cool stuff, and circus music, and balloons you can bounce off of, and bumpers, and rotating cylinders you have to ride or avoid, and cannons, and huge, rotating meshed columns you can ride up and down and... well, that's just what you see in the first 30 seconds. But, really, that's all you see in that stage. Its second act probably isn't much longer than Sandopolis' second act, but you're already dealing with reruns in your scenery. So Knuckles turns the lights off. Big deal. It's just as boring in the dark. How many circles of three bumpers did I have to fight through? Dunno, lost count. How many of those little soda-can-lookin' badniks that shoot off blue sparks did I have to get by? Sorry, those memories are too damn repressed to say. And how many times did I go through a wall, hit a special ring, do the special stage, but then fall through the floor and have to replay the last godforsaken two minutes of stage over again?! Way. Too. Many.

You sit down, you come up with a stage complete with all the different components, gizmos, baddies, obstacles, etc., and draft up all their implementations—on some level, you already know how long your stage is gonna be, ballpark. You exceed that, the zone suffers. Of course, if you don't come up with specific items for each stage, you run the risk of making (read: you will make) a game that is, itself, redundant. One of Shadow's most glaring flaws is the biggest difference between most of the levels was the color of the walls.

Of course, Sandopolis was at an advantage because its first act was relatively different from the first. One of the things I liked about Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the progression within each zone. In Sonic 1 & 2, the whole act thing seemed to be just a way of making three different levels with the same scenery, but in Sonic 3 & Knuckles took on an idea which wound up being very adrenaline-pumping. Change up the scenery on the way through. Like when that robot set Angel Island Zone on fire. Or when Mushroom Hill started drying out. Or when the active volcano in Lava Reef cooled off, and then suddenly took a Death Egg blast and became active again.

SA1 took a very proactive stab at this by giving each level different act-esque segments. There's rooftop Speed Highway, running down a building Speed Highway, and street level Speed Highway. Hell, it was barely the same level at the end of it, but since it kept the same components (cop car baddies, shattering glass floors, etc.), it wasn't too obtrusive. I think that's what's hurting a lot of the current stages; they come in one flavor and one flavor only. The water level concept is played out, yes, but if you can do something interesting with it, over the course of it, then I'm listening.

In fact, I have an idea. Check it out.

Let's just say for the sake of this example, the cast is Sonic, Tails, Knuckles & Rouge. (There could be more, but just for this example, there aren't.)

Start out on the beach, run along the shore and the pier (with, as previously indicated, a bunch of shore, beach and pier-relevant enemies, obstacles and all). But then, get swept away by a horrible storm, and use a piece of the pier to surf/boat/raft through it, if you're Sonic or Tails, who don't do so great with water. If you're Knuckles or Rouge, you swim underwater and find a secret underwater base. When the storm settles, Sonic and Tails find themselves in a fleet full of Eggman-infested ships. There's obviously a main ship with the big-ass Eggman logo they're trying to get to, but they have to do so by battling their way through the little ships, first. Knuckles and Rouge will instead, infiltrate the underwater base, then finally find a torpedo launcher that'll launch them into the entrance of the big ship Sonic and Tails just found an entrance to. And then, when the player finishes, boss time.

(The only reason this wouldn't work with the characters I've described is that Rouge is too similar to Knuckles, and their runs through the game would likely always play identical to one another. But twas just an example.)
dacksleveldesign.gif
Mind you, I mean "act" in more of the SA1 sense, where the music takes on a different arrangement and subgenre (but the melody remains), the scenery changes, but it's still the same level. No "act cleared" screen and music, just a segue into the next part. Also, the level-specific elements stay constant. For instance, the crab enemies from the beach will still be found on the fleet ships and the base, just to keep some consistency.

And don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting this as an alternative to replace the previously discussed excellent ideas on the "revamped linear" model (especially Senbei's Generic City Zone example.) And truthfully, the bulk of the level would probably be in Acts 1 & 3, since the parts you have to go through no matter who you play as need the variety of multiple routes the most.

But that's just my big pie-in-sky idea. I'll cap off this monster of a post with two issues regarding the actual specific architecture.

I'd like to see less bottomless pits out of laziness, of course, but I'd like to see more climatic stretches of bottomlessness, when the story calls for it (à la Lava Reef Act 2 pre-boss, or Flying Battery Act 2's stretches). But that doesn't mean impending peril has to take a vacation. Remember getting crushed? Yeah, I actually liked that facet. That no matter how many rings I had, I couldn't get too cocky. That's why I was bummed out in Lost World when I saw a row of spikes drop and found out that they didn't kill me. Just your typical lost-ring fare. I'd like to see crushing meaning instantaneous death get re-introduced without getting driven into the ground like bottomless pits did.

(Know what'd be a good segment? Triangle jumping across two walls closing in on you Star Wars dumpster style. They do that yet?)

Also, am I the only one who recognized the potential in that last stretch in Sonic's Sky Deck for that to be akin to the chaotic speed section of Chemical Plant? But it couldn't happen because bumping into the wall slowed you down. (The presence of the worst camerawork in the game didn't help any, either.) Come to think of it, most of the speed sections were either ruined by bumping into the wall or automated with dash panels so you feel like you're just watching a movie of Sonic running fast. How about broadening up the pathways so that Sonic can run on them without bumping into guard rails on a too-narrow straightaway? City Escape had some great moments like this. The only other thing that could help is if you could "drift", like in Riders or the bike riding part of No More Heroes. I have a damn blast driving that thing, and there's really nothing making it interesting other than the drifting. Really, that could be great. B + a horizontal flick of the Wiimote to corner sharply (or a button/joystick direction, since, after all, Sonic games shouldn't have to be Wii exclusive, even if I have a sinking feeling they will be after S06). I think the biggest problem is that they always zoom out whenever Sonic hits a loop, so you can see how cool it looks. Problem is, the directions are always relative to the camera, so this necessitates those awful dash pads. I'd rather see the scenery spin from Sonic's POV at the loss of the 2D experience of the thing, than have my flow be interrupted by a dash pad, after which I know nothing I did up that point any longer has any bearing on my current momentum.

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That's all I've got to say about that.
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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by P.P.A. »

DackAttac wrote: Mind you, I mean "act" in more of the SA1 sense, where the music takes on a different arrangement and subgenre (but the melody remains), the scenery changes, but it's still the same level. No "act cleared" screen and music, just a segue into the next part. Also, the level-specific elements stay constant. For instance, the crab enemies from the beach will still be found on the fleet ships and the base, just to keep some consistency.
This is more or less exactly what Sonic 06 did (to great effect).

Oh, and for the MCZ pit: I never bother to unlock Super Sonic, so I don't mind it that much. :p

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Post by Isuka »

Crazy Penguin wrote:I think we all hold some level of affection for that pit.
Well, it kind of saved me from starving to death, so...
DackAttac wrote:How about Carnival Night Zone?
Yeah, it's all cool and weird and fun for a bit until some kind of "McDonald's effect" kicks in and you just want to get out of the place as soon as possible after getting sick of it. In the end, Carnie doesn't stand a chance to good ol' Vegas Casino.
DackAttac wrote:Of course, Sandopolis was at an advantage because its second act was relatively different from the first.
Fix'd.
DackAttac wrote:There's obviously a main ship with the big-ass Eggman logo they're trying to get to, but they have to do so by battling their way through the little ships, first.
Oh great, it's Ocean Palace all over again. I hope we can keep that badass BGM too :D .
DackAttac wrote:Mind you, I mean "act" in more of the SA1 sense, where the music takes on a different arrangement and subgenre (but the melody remains), the scenery changes, but it's still the same level. No "act cleared" screen and music, just a segue into the next part. Also, the level-specific elements stay constant. For instance, the crab enemies from the beach will still be found on the fleet ships and the base, just to keep some consistency.
Actually, I'd really like to see the sub-bosses returning. In fact I would probably turn the game into a Treasure-esque series of bosses interspersed between acts, but that's just me and my (potentially) bad ideas.

From what I've read of SA2 it seems that the entirety of Sonic's and Shadow's game is like a 3D evolution of Chemical Plant, so that's probably the way to go in that regard.
And many loop-de-loops (more like those corkscrew bridges from Emerald Hill) in Wave Ocean take the camera to Sonic's back for some of the rare, scarce Sonic '06 moments.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by DackAttac »

...I think you're the first person to ever use "Fix'd" nonsarcastically.

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Post by Ritz »

Isuka wrote:Actually, I'd really like to see the sub-bosses returning. In fact I would probably turn the game into a Treasure-esque series of bosses interspersed between acts, but that's just me and my (potentially) bad ideas.
Actually, one of my biggest gripes with the classic games (All of the games, really, but it's more of a sore thumb in the classics when everything else is practically flawless) is that all of the bosses are completely uninteresting, and a liability more often than not. Seriously, the end-of-stage bosses have always been a cozy series staple, but when was the last time you ever thought, "Oh, man! I can't wait to fight the Screw Mobile!"? I'm not sure if it's because Sonic's gameplay simply isn't suited to combat, but the boss battles were always something I've wanted to see expanded upon.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by Crazy Penguin »

Sonic CD had the most creative bosses of the old games, but most of them didn't allow for much freedom, particularly the treadmill boss. And they decided to make the first and final bosses suck for whatever reason. For the most part the problem with Sonic bosses was that they required little skill, you just needed to keep bouncing in place. They all did interesting things but it was too easy to beat them and they stuck to a set pattern.

The Sonic Rush games had surprisingly decent bosses, despite the superfluous 3D graphics.

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Re: Sonic level design, a discussion.

Post by DackAttac »

Rush Adventure's I really enjoyed (especially the Nega/Johnny fight, which may be a highlight in saga), but SR's had some problems with the one-hit kill. They came too often, and even when I tried to analyze what the boss was doing, I had a too-difficult time getting the timing right.

You're pretty much right about the bosses, though.

Know what was a great boss? Egg Viper, even though it operated more like a 2.5D boss à la Rush series than a true 3D boss. But it shakes off all the negative qualities CP just pointed out. Eggman wasn't vulnerable until you evaded his round of attacks. The main problem of Eggman (or whatever weak spot) being vulnerable all the time is that there's no real drawback for just going at it. If one of his attacks happens to hit you, that's fine, you'll just lose your rings and you can get them back if you're not sluggish, then try it again, (and if you're quick about it, you're temporarily still invincible from the hit and can't be harmed until you're already doing the six-seven-eight bounce on Eggman's scalp again). Viper made you wait through his attacks, which got increasingly varied and challenging as it went along... it was really a gradual progression until the end, where there was nothing in common between that attack pattern and the old one. And for a bottomless pit stage in a 3D Sonic game, it was remarkably hard to fall in unintentionally. That was a pretty well-polished fight, and they'd do well to model the vulnerability window and attack pattern variability of each boss after it.

I also hate chase sequence battles, (I'm looking at you, Advance 2 & Heroes) but there are some exceptions. Secret Rings' best boss was just such a fight, and Rush Adventure had a well-implemented one.

Also, final battles need to stop this Super Sonic shit, even though he's a given for any climax regarding Chaos Emeralds. I may have shared this idea before, but my ideal awesome last-story twist would be to have Super Sonic battle the final boss. (I'm not done, don't kill me yet.) Then the final boss comes back, much like Perfect Chaos, but hey, guess what? Sonic's not Super anymore. Now you have to fight the same fight, without invulnerability on your side.

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