Shadow and Rush, Opinions and General Bitching

Speak your mind, or lack thereof. There may occasionally be on-topic discussions.

Postby Professor Machenstein » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:17 pm

Thankfully, Rush has a lot more platforming elements than the previous two Advance games. Not as much as the Genesis games, but more on par with Advance 1. There's also a lot of room for exploration. I still haven't explored all the stages yet.

And good idea, Frieza. The Tension Gauge should be powered by rings. But what about the tricks? Should we rid of them altogether or find another use for them, perhaps increasing your score? I want to have something to do while I am in the air and not in Kaiten position (Like when you jump onto a spring).
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Postby Ritz » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:32 pm

Professor Machenstein wrote:The rotation engine seems more of a visual gag than an actual improvement on the formula, but I suppose it can be put to use in future level designs.
Yeah, it was pretty much only there for cosmetic purposes in the demos, but it was apparently going to be put to some heavy use later on. I think it would've worked swell if it didn't interrupt the flow of the stage, and it would eliminate linearity entirely. So long as the stages didn't get too complex, at least. After Shadow, it's safe to assume that they would.
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Postby James McGeachie » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:47 pm

Well at least they changed the way to build up the tension gauge in Rush from its original concept. Apparently beforehand all you needed to do was run to charge it.
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Postby tornadot » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:51 pm

I'm surprised they didn't try to get a cameo of Shadow in. Or are they trying to separate the Shadow franchise from Sonic?
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Postby Ritz » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:57 pm

Wouldn't that be a good thing?
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:00 pm

Unlikely, since Shadow is in Sonic Riders. The way I see it, the Pocket/Advance/Rush games are their own continuum and have no connection with the 3D games. Of course, we have Sonic the Hedgehog coming in about six months which claims to "reboot" the series and establish its own continuum.
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Postby tornadot » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:06 pm

Establish its own continuum or just screw it up, inciting more arguments about how Sega has no direction?
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Postby Light Speed » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:07 pm

Where'd you hear six months? Isn't that like really soon? The PS3 probably won't even be out in the US by then.
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Postby tornadot » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:15 pm

If you believe rumors that it'll come out in May.
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Postby Light Speed » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:25 pm

I haven't heard anything at all, so I was just wondering. :)
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Postby Frieza2000 » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:26 pm

Where did you hear reboot the continuity? They said reinvent the series, which I took to mean in terms of gameplay.

I don't care for the tricks (in advance, haven't seen rush). They're overly showy and only work off of springs. That's lame; why have a move that's completly about style that can only be used in one or two places per stage? But I wouldn't mind if they kept them as an extra move with no purpose. It worked for NiGHTS.
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Postby James McGeachie » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:38 pm

People are thinking the next gen Sonic could potentially be out in June, so that it meets Sonic's 15th Anniversary, but I don't see it happening. Unless they've been working on it for well over a year, that'd be far too little development time for it to turn out as good as it needs to be to live up to the hype they're giving it.

I don't expect it until the end of the year, if it even makes it out in 2006.
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Postby jenkins » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Frieza2000 wrote:Where did you hear reboot the continuity? They said reinvent the series, which I took to mean in terms of gameplay.

I don't care for the tricks (in advance, haven't seen rush). They're overly showy and only work off of springs. That's lame; why have a move that's completly about style that can only be used in one or two places per stage? But I wouldn't mind if they kept them as an extra move with no purpose. It worked for NiGHTS.


Haven't played NiGHTS, so can't judge/argue. But as for tricks working off springs, isn't that when they're most useful? After all, it's one of the few times when airborne Sonic is vulnerable. It is, however, stupid when they don't inflict damage, like with Tails and Cream.

Best launch date? I think McGeachie is right here, with June being their target. But they really should wait until they have it perfected, in '07 or even '08.
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Postby Light Speed » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:45 pm

They'll have it out in time for Xmas 2006 I'm sure. It'd be a pretty lousy 15th anniversery if it missed 2006. Besides, I'm sure it's been in development since at the very least shortly after Heroes. I can't remember when Heroes came out though, it's been two years hasn't it?
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:00 pm

Heroes came out in Japan somewhere around December 2003, so if SEGA has been working on Sonic the Hedgehog since, then it has been in development for a little more than two years. I have no idea when third party companies got their next-gen development kits though. I reckon Sonic the Hedgehog will come out on Q3 of this year.
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Postby Esrever » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:11 pm

I can not see how next gen Sonic could get a June release. The only build they've showed off so far is tremendously incomplete. If this game was coming out in June we would have seen more by now.
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Postby One Classy Bloke » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:24 pm

I'm pretty sure we're looking at a 2006 Xmas release at the soonest, at least in Europe. There's been no talk of it coming in for testing any time soon.
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Postby Egore » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:50 pm

Rush is good, but it still doesn't make up for the shit Sonic Team has put out lately.

Shadow the Hedgehog - shit
Sonic Gems Collection - repackaged games
Sonic Advance 3 - shit
Sonic Heroes - shit
Sonic Battle - meh
Sonic N - (shitty) repackaged game
Sonic Adventure DX - repackaged game
Sonic Pinball Party - shit
Sonic Advance 2 - shit
Sonic Mega Collection - repackaged games
Sonic Advance - meh
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle - repackaged game

The last eleven games were either total crap or something we've already played and payed for. That's inexcusable. I'm not going to praise Sonic Team/Sega/Dimps for making one decent game in a pile of turds. In fact, it should be expected of them to have some decent games every now and then. Their track record is piss poor. And even though Rush is good, it still has a number of flaws that are unforgivable at this point.

First off, there's the pits, but that's been mentioned enough as it is. We all know the dialogue is trash, but it's not just the actual voice acting. Who writes the script? It's garbage. Cream and Tails are slowly becoming the same (annoying) character. I'm sick of the parallelism in Sonic games. It was very evident in SA2 how every character had an opposite. The individuality is being sucked out of all these characters. And then there's the amount of characters...It's not necessary to introduce a new character in EVERY FUCKING GAME. And look at Riders...there's three! And they all suck! Sonic has too many crap characters as it is. Then the setup of the game itself, as others have mentioned, is the same as the last ten games before it. Is it that hard to include Super Sonic in every level? What ever happened to that? That added so much replay value to Sonic 2, 3 & Knuckles. Every level from every recent Sonic games seems to be: second to last level- some sort of plane, last level- Robotnik-built space station, REAL last level- Super Sonic fight in space. It's old already. There's no originality anymore. This last one is more of personal gripe: the ranks at the end of every level. Luckily this time you don't need to get S-ranks, but in SA and SA2, it just made me frustrated trying to get those. I don't want to be tested on how well I get through each level.

Aside from that long list of flaws, Sonic Rush manages to still be good. It has done a lot right since the Advance series. First of all, they limited the characters down to two, thank God. I didn't want to play every level 5 times and get every Chaos Emerald 5 times just to see the real ending. The tricks system is finally done well. It isn't necessary, and so it isn't forced upon you, but if you choose to use it, you'll enjoy it. Also, I like the whole burst thing, although it kind of makes the Spin Dash obsolete. Sonic Rush also removed those redundant and stupid extra moves, like Sonic's kick. No one has EVER used that. It was just there for no reason. And since when does Sonic kick? I thought the point of having the roll attack was to keep your momentum going. The kick just stopped you, so I'm glad to see it removed. Aside from the bottomless pits, the levels are designed a lot better than recent games. They have a certain flow now, and they rely on little things that were missing from the other games, like pushing buttons and just plain platforming instead of running. The early Sonic games weren't just running.

There's probably a few more I could add to each one, but I'm too lazy to continue thinking.
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Postby SegaSonic » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:36 pm

Egore wrote:Rush is good, but it still doesn't make up for the shit Sonic Team has put out lately.

Shadow the Hedgehog - shit
Sonic Gems Collection - repackaged games
Sonic Advance 3 - shit
Sonic Heroes - shit
Sonic Battle - meh
Sonic N - (shitty) repackaged game
Sonic Adventure DX - repackaged game
Sonic Pinball Party - shit
Sonic Advance 2 - shit
Sonic Mega Collection - repackaged games
Sonic Advance - meh
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle - repackaged game

The last eleven games were either total crap or something we've already played and payed for. That's inexcusable. I'm not going to praise Sonic Team/Sega/Dimps for making one decent game in a pile of turds. In fact, it should be expected of them to have some decent games every now and then. Their track record is piss poor. And even though Rush is good, it still has a number of flaws that are unforgivable at this point.

First off, there's the pits, but that's been mentioned enough as it is. We all know the dialogue is trash, but it's not just the actual voice acting. Who writes the script? It's garbage. Cream and Tails are slowly becoming the same (annoying) character. I'm sick of the parallelism in Sonic games. It was very evident in SA2 how every character had an opposite. The individuality is being sucked out of all these characters. And then there's the amount of characters...It's not necessary to introduce a new character in EVERY FUCKING GAME. And look at Riders...there's three! And they all suck! Sonic has too many crap characters as it is. Then the setup of the game itself, as others have mentioned, is the same as the last ten games before it. Is it that hard to include Super Sonic in every level? What ever happened to that? That added so much replay value to Sonic 2, 3 & Knuckles. Every level from every recent Sonic games seems to be: second to last level- some sort of plane, last level- Robotnik-built space station, REAL last level- Super Sonic fight in space. It's old already. There's no originality anymore. This last one is more of personal gripe: the ranks at the end of every level. Luckily this time you don't need to get S-ranks, but in SA and SA2, it just made me frustrated trying to get those. I don't want to be tested on how well I get through each level.

Aside from that long list of flaws, Sonic Rush manages to still be good. It has done a lot right since the Advance series. First of all, they limited the characters down to two, thank God. I didn't want to play every level 5 times and get every Chaos Emerald 5 times just to see the real ending. The tricks system is finally done well. It isn't necessary, and so it isn't forced upon you, but if you choose to use it, you'll enjoy it. Also, I like the whole burst thing, although it kind of makes the Spin Dash obsolete. Sonic Rush also removed those redundant and stupid extra moves, like Sonic's kick. No one has EVER used that. It was just there for no reason. And since when does Sonic kick? I thought the point of having the roll attack was to keep your momentum going. The kick just stopped you, so I'm glad to see it removed. Aside from the bottomless pits, the levels are designed a lot better than recent games. They have a certain flow now, and they rely on little things that were missing from the other games, like pushing buttons and just plain platforming instead of running. The early Sonic games weren't just running.

There's probably a few more I could add to each one, but I'm too lazy to continue thinking.


Wow,

Welcome aboard!
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Postby Locit » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:58 pm

tl;dr
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Postby One Classy Bloke » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:44 am

Because all other series are consistant brillance.
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:23 am

Egore wrote:Rush is good, but it still doesn't make up for the shit Sonic Team has put out lately.

Shadow the Hedgehog - shit
Sonic Gems Collection - repackaged games
Sonic Advance 3 - shit
Sonic Heroes - shit
Sonic Battle - meh
Sonic N - (shitty) repackaged game
Sonic Adventure DX - repackaged game
Sonic Pinball Party - shit
Sonic Advance 2 - shit
Sonic Mega Collection - repackaged games
Sonic Advance - meh
Sonic Adventure 2 Battle - repackaged game

Some of those games only have a small degree of shit in them, specifically the Advance games. Heh, I still can't believe Sonic Battle is "meh" when Advance 2 is "shit", but sure...

Egore wrote:The last eleven games were either total crap or something we've already played and payed for. That's inexcusable. I'm not going to praise Sonic Team/Sega/Dimps for making one decent game in a pile of turds.

Wow, I would hate to see how you would raise your childeren.

"Thanks for cleaning the garage and mowing the lawn, both front and backyard, but since you haven't cleaned your room or loaded the dishwasher, no praise for you! GO TO YOUR ROOM! I don't want to see your face."

What I imply is that, yes, you should bash SEGA for making crappy games. But when they make a good one, encourage them to make more. Otherwise, SEGA will continue to sit on their thumbs going, "WHADAREWE DOIN WRONG????" then pump out the next gimmick.

Sonic Rush is the closest to what we have ever got to a game worthy enough to live up to the Sonic name since Sonic & Knuckles. You should encourage SEGA to make more like it. Let's just see to it that they fix the flaws that inherited the first game. (Unlikely)

Egore wrote:I'm sick of the parallelism in Sonic games. It was very evident in SA2 how every character had an opposite. The individuality is being sucked out of all these characters. And then there's the amount of characters...It's not necessary to introduce a new character in EVERY FUCKING GAME. And look at Riders...there's three! And they all suck! Sonic has too many crap characters as it is.

Very true. No matter how much we have complained about that, SEGA insists they keep adding new characters. It's like the Mario Party games of the Sonic franchise; we don't want anymore, but they still keep adding them.

Egore wrote:Then the setup of the game itself, as others have mentioned, is the same as the last ten games before it. Is it that hard to include Super Sonic in every level? What ever happened to that? That added so much replay value to Sonic 2, 3 & Knuckles.

Super Sonic is more of a convenience than anything else, but I too would be delighted to see him in every level again.
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Postby Crazy Penguin » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:38 am

One Classy Bloke wrote:Because all other series are consistant brillance.


The Legend of Zelda series has done well so far and remained strong both in terms of critical and fan acclaim and sales and marketability.
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Postby Professor Machenstein » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:19 pm

Crazy Penguin wrote:
One Classy Bloke wrote:Because all other series are consistant brillance.


The Legend of Zelda series has done well so far and remained strong both in terms of critical and fan acclaim and sales and marketability.

Why, of course. Nintendo takes their time to make sure each title in the series lives up to their full potential, even if it means delaying it until Summer 2006 (Yes, I went there). That's what SEGA did with the Sonic games in the early 90's, and look at how they ended up. Quality titles, each with their own style, atmosphere and fun factor. But starting with Chaotix, they have developed a habit of rushing them out into the street before they're even finished.

What SEGA needs to do is slow the Hell down and stop working on so many projects at the same goddamn time. Why are they developing Sonic Riders when they should put all of their development time into Sonic the Hedgehog? No matter how good or bad Riders will turn out, it will have zero impact on the overall quality of series. Whereas Sonic the Hedgehog will the the one-and-only game to determine the vitality of the Sonic name.
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Postby jenkins » Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:47 pm

Professor Machenstein wrote:
Crazy Penguin wrote:The Legend of Zelda series has done well so far and remained strong both in terms of critical and fan acclaim and sales and marketability.

Why, of course. Nintendo takes their time to make sure each title in the series lives up to their full potential, even if it means delaying it until Summer 2006 (Yes, I went there). That's what SEGA did with the Sonic games in the early 90's, and look at how they ended up. Quality titles, each with their own style, atmosphere and fun factor. But starting with Chaotix, they have developed a habit of rushing them out into the street before they're even finished.

What SEGA needs to do is slow the Hell down and stop working on so many projects at the same goddamn time. Why are they developing Sonic Riders when they should put all of their development time into Sonic the Hedgehog? No matter how good or bad Riders will turn out, it will have zero impact on the overall quality of series. Whereas Sonic the Hedgehog will the the one-and-only game to determine the vitality of the Sonic name.


This is very true. In general, Sega should put much more time into development and testing. What happened to beta testing? I've seen beta test shots from Sonic Advance, but none from any more recent game. And then with Sonic 2, there's a beta version which everyone knows and is almost as highly regarded as the finished product. To cut to the chase, they should test Sonic games before releasing them. And not on a bunch of pre-middle schoolers. That's never going to be a good focus group. They should test them on die-hard Sonic fans, maybe not as extremist as we are, but at least as concerned. That's where they can really have an impact.
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