New Shadow the Hedgehog details

Recent happenings of pertinence to Sonic fans.
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Frieza2000
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Post by Frieza2000 »

Here's a quote from Iizuka that I haven't seen posted yet.

"Each level has its own feeling and its own way of play, so it's definatly going to be a departure from what you've seen."

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Post by big_smile »

I just don't think there's anywhere left to go with 2D Sonic. To my reckoning, S&K was the pinnacle of the formula. The problem with 3D Sonic is the opposite - there's so much potential, but Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.
Sonic Pocket Adventure was extremely disappointing as it not only failed to offer anything new, but it omitted some of the best aspects of the classic Sonic games such as multiple characters, large S3&K style levels and an absorbing storyline. Yet despite these faults, Dimps’ first stab at the Sonic license is superb simply because it allows old memories to be relived with a (very slight) fresh feel.

After all the disappointments we've had, a clone of S3&K would be more than welcome even if it didn't evolve the Sonic series. A few optional extras that don't impinge on the core gameplay (such as time travel, cut-scenes and puzzle pieces) would help to make it feel new. It certainly wouldn't be the start of a new franchise (and if Sonic Team pull it of successfully, it would be best for Sonic to take another 2D sabbatical for at least 7 years), but it may give Naka and co the insight they need to make a 3D game that stays true to Sonic's roots.
But executed correctly I seriously think that an optional partner system could greatly enhance a 2D Sonic platformer.
I disagree. The tag system destroys the characters both in terms of gameplay and personality. Sonic, for example, is Sonic precisely because he can't fly, glide or attack with Mr. Cheese. Knuckles' lone wolf nature, a core aspect of his personality, becomes less credible each time he teams up with others.

The system also complicates level design. The Knuckles-only routes in S&K, for example, would lose much of their charm if Sonic could speed through them. Creating unique level routes for each combination of characters is impractical even with just have 3 characters (which provide 9 possible teams to cater for). Similar problems also affect the development of cut-scenes and storylines.

Character pairing is best saved for 2P mode as long as the levels don't expect two players to use team-moves. It would also make a nifty unlockable bonus for fully beating the game, (with all the Emeralds and Emblems) because, at that point, being able to speed through Knuckles' routes as Sonic would release the last drops of fun contained within the game.

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

Locit wrote:
but Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.
As for what SEGA could do to the original Sonic 2D engine... I have a couple suggestions. As Sonic runs a loop-de-loop, the camera will center Sonic and the stage rotates independantly, giving you a motion trip on the opticals.
Just a quote without any further words? What are you on about exactly?

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Post by Stardust Speedman »

I think Shadow the Hedgehog will really be a good game! I don't deny, that the classical 2D Sonic games had better level designs. I know, that most of the 3D Sonic games had linear level design. But all the 3D Sonic games made a lot fun too. I don't say, that Shadow the Hedgehog will be the best Sonic game ever. But I am SHURE I will enjoy it and many of you to. Besides, I think, that Shadow the Hedgehog will be a game, in comparison to other 3D Sonic games and even a lot of 2D Sonic games, with a lot variety. I REALLY hope it will come to PC too, or I may not be able to play it!

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

I never choose to label any of the recent Sonic games disappointments. In my honest perspective, even Sonic Heroes was enjoyable when I first played it. I would someday like a side-scrolling Sonic game, untouched by gimmicks, trippy level designs, alternate routes and a game the majority of our fanbase can enjoy. Then again, it never hurts to add a little tinsty winsty something to the original formula. Knuckles' gliding and climbing abilities worked, did it not? What about the super spin dash, or how you can go Super/Hyper when you have assembled all the Chaos/Super Emeralds and 50 rings? Gimmicks aren't the problem, it's how they corrupt Sonic's gameplay engine and slows the experience down. Ever seen the X-Play review of Sonic Heroes on G4TV? Morgan Webb does have an excellent point, but she doesn't realize the team-action wasn't the problem, but how it lacks the polishing to even be combined with the traditional 3D engine. Anyways, enough of my lecture. Carry on.

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Post by Cuckooguy »

Well, I played Sonic Heroes after Ico, so SH is the third game I've bought for my PS2 (first being Katamari, second being Ico, third being SH, which, even though I knew of all the hate it gets around here, I knew I was going to play inevitably).

When I was first playing Sonic Heroes, I actually liked it (for a while), and it baffled me (for a while) on how Sonic Heroes could receive <i>that</i> much hate (for a while); I treated it much like a rollercoaster ride with no regards to exploration. I did think it was fun, trying to run through the level as fast as I can with no regards to looking at the little details, and I thought it was a cool extension of the 1.5 play found in the 2D Sonic games; always wanted to fly over to that platform as Tails but didn't have a second player controller buddy person? Just simply switch to Tails to fly, which was implemented in Sonic Heroes; but it was really only fun for me the first or second time around.

Around the third or the fourth time I played a level (with another team), the flaws became apparent, and all the glitches decided to come up when I tried to get all the emblems. Now I'm sick of Sonic Heroes, and I blame my distaste more on the level design than the mechanics (though the mechanics of Bingo Highway slides did suck ass). The only time the "team based" gameplay mechanics annoyed me were when the other characters were incapacitated, particularly during power formation. That was just stupid, and I was like "Fuckin' die already, you stupid hammer bot and E-200 series."

I hope that if there is another "Sonic Heroes", the Chaotix helm the series instead of Sonic.

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Post by Crazy Penguin »

big_smile wrote:Sonic Pocket Adventure was extremely disappointing as it not only failed to offer anything new, but it omitted some of the best aspects of the classic Sonic games such as multiple characters, large S3&K style levels and an absorbing storyline. Yet despite these faults, Dimps’ first stab at the Sonic license is superb simply because it allows old memories to be relived with a (very slight) fresh feel.
The one addition I liked a lot in Sonic Pocket Adventure was the hidden puzzle pieces. It was far from inspired but it added some optional replay value.
But executed correctly I seriously think that an optional partner system could greatly enhance a 2D Sonic platformer.
I disagree. The tag system destroys the characters both in terms of gameplay and personality. Sonic, for example, is Sonic precisely because he can't fly, glide or attack with Mr. Cheese. Knuckles' lone wolf nature, a core aspect of his personality, becomes less credible each time he teams up with others.
big_smile wrote:The system also complicates level design. The Knuckles-only routes in S&K, for example, would lose much of their charm if Sonic could speed through them. Creating unique level routes for each combination of characters is impractical even with just have 3 characters (which provide 9 possible teams to cater for). Similar problems also affect the development of cut-scenes and storylines.
I disagree, the more sprawling and non-linear the level design the better. The goal wouldn't necessarily be to give every single pairing its own unique route in every single level, that would kind of be missing the point of it, there would still be plenty of crossover - Knuckles' strength and gliding wouldn't necessarily lead to new routes in every level whereas other times you might need Sonic's speed and a flying character to reach one secret area.

You make a valid point about it maybe not fitting the characters though, despite the basic concept stemming from Sonic 2 and 3&K. Now that I think about it it would be better suited as a spinoff Team Chaotix game, with the addition of Mighty and Ray or some new characters to expand the cast.

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Post by Stardust Speedman »

I like the dificulty of Sonic Heroes. I enjoy playing a Level 100 times to get an A-rank or beat the Highscores in "The Sonic Center"-website. In my opinion, a game MUST be challanging. For egsample, Sonic Adventure DX was a very good game, but it was too easy. Thatswhy I enjoy Sonic Heroes more than Sonic Adventure DX. But most of the Sonic-fans enjoy Sonic Adventure more, because you can't make so many mistakes in the stages. Man, whats the matter with you? Work hard at the dificult Levels! When you get an A-rank, youl be filled with proud! THAT is, in my opinion, what makes fun.
Last edited by Stardust Speedman on Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Crazy Penguin »

Stardust Speedman wrote:I like the dificulty of Sonic Heroes. I enjoy playing al Level 100 times to get an A-rank or beat the Highscores in "The Sonic Center"-website. In my opinion, a game MUST be challanging. For egsample, Sonic Adventure DX was a very good game, but it was too easy. Thatswhy I enjoy Sonic Heroes more than Sonic Adventure DX. But most of the Sonic-fans enjoy Sonic Adventure more, because you can't make so many mistakes in the stages. Man, whats the matter with you? Work hard at the dificult Levels! When you get an A-rank, youl be filled with proud! THAT is, in my opinion, what makes fun.
A lot of Sonic Heroes' "challenge" came out of poor control mechanics and cheap pit-fall filled level design.

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Post by Stardust Speedman »

Crazy Penguin wrote:...and cheap pit-fall filled level design.
I don't say, that Sonic Heroes had the best level design. I myself allways wished a 3D Sonic game with Sonic's classical level design. But all the same, I have a lot of fun with Sonic Heroes.

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Post by Dark Crow »

Stardust Speedman wrote:
Crazy Penguin wrote:...and cheap pit-fall filled level design.
I don't say, that Sonic Heroes had the best level design. I myself allways wished a 3D Sonic game with Sonic's classical level design. But all the same, I have a lot of fun with Sonic Heroes.
I think the closest Sega have come to classical level designs in a 3D Sonic game has been the excellent Sonic Adventure. Despite the visual styles that say otherwise, the levels in Heroes are so completely against the ideologies set out by the original games and SA that there should be no relation at all; the exploration aspect was completely thrown out the window because of the miniscule amount of running room the game allows, which in turn also results in the massive pits of doom causing your demise half the time. There was no sort of non-linearity at any sections in the levels, or going along different pathways to the Goal Ring; it was either "go this way, or fall to your death". The controls were also glitchy (especially the PS2 version), and to round off the list of bad features, the character switching destroyed the pacing as well.

Although in Sonic Adventure there were a few death pits, they were not nearly as major a hindrance when compared to Heroes, and there were several sections were you could complete the levels differently whilst the game still retained its focus in being fast paced (the beginning sections of Speed Highway, the "wall running" puzzle of Lost World, Tails' sewer and Eggman race, ANY of Knuckles’ levels etc). To state that SA(DX) is inferior to Heroes on the basis of it having little challenge because of its relatively low number of flaws artificially making the game harder, I would honestly have to say that you have mixed up priorities Stardust.
Last edited by Dark Crow on Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Frieza2000 »

There's 2 different kinds of difficult. The kind where the levels are designed well and require some practice, and the annoying kind that involves glitches and praying to God that your character doesn't fall through the floor while trying to get those poker chips on the ramp. Sonic Heroes had some of the good difficulty, but most of the bad.

I too enjoyed Heroes when I first played it. In fact, I was so focused on winning that I never stopped to notice how terrible it was until I heard the horrific dialogue. When Sonic shouted that ear-splitting final line, I looked back and realized that the game was devoid of everything that makes a Sonic game: good music, art, levels, and (to a lesser extend) story.

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Post by SegaSonic »

Getting all "A's" isnt worth it in Heroes.

Now if you got Team SuperSonic...

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Post by Omni Hunter »

I was hoping for Metal Knuckles, Metal Sonic and Tails Doll in a team myself.

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Post by Opa-Opa »

I was hoping for an a Team Arcade or something like that. If you could only swap the team members to play the Super Hard it would be great. I don't know, a Chaotix with Knuckles instead of Vector would be nice, or some crazy combinations like Espio, Cream and, I dunno, Omega...

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Post by Dark Crow »

There are a collection of hacks that allow for certain characters to be exchanged on the PC version. In the unlikely event you actually have it, they can be found here.

I reckon somebody should hack the game so that there would be a Team SegaSonic, where the Tails model is modified to look like Ray the Flying Squirrel, and Knuckles to look like Mighty. I'm certain it could be possible, because I know the Heroes model files are floating around the internet somewhere.

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Post by Locit »

Professor Machenstein wrote:
Locit wrote:
but Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.
As for what SEGA could do to the original Sonic 2D engine... I have a couple suggestions. As Sonic runs a loop-de-loop, the camera will center Sonic and the stage rotates independantly, giving you a motion trip on the opticals.
Just a quote without any further words? What are you on about exactly?
That the idea would just be a weak gimmick. It would add nothing to gameplay and would probably just get in the way. It would be disorienting to the point of distraction.
Read between the lines.
Hell, just read the lines.

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

So you believe you can think of a better idea? It just torks me off that people complain that the Sonic series hasn't had a truely new idea, yet we complain because Sonic Team doesn't keep it pure. Christ, what do you want? If the next Sonic game was a clone of S3&K, we'd complain because it wasn't something new, whilst if the next Sonic was something completely different (No matter how unnesessary or minor), we'd complain because it wasn't true to the original formula. Woe is Sonic Team.

EDIT: Modified to not stretch to the page.
Last edited by Professor Machenstein on Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Stardust Speedman »

I believe, that there is a Team Metal Sonic to unluck and I am trying to do this. But this is another thematic and does not fit in this thread...

In my opinion, Sonic Adventure isn't that much close to the classical Sonic games. I would love to see a 3D Sonic game with Levels like Wacky Workbench, Tidal Plant, Scrap Brain Zone, Sky High Zone, Jungle, Marble Garden Zone, Sandopolis Zone, Wing Fortress Zone, Rusty Ruin Zone, Marina Madness, Stardust Speedway, Marble Zone and so on, with many paths, varities, and vehicles. Whith vehicles, I don't mean cars. I mean for example kites, like in Sonic 2 for GG, or bubbles, which take you up when your under water. Sonic Heroes is everithing else, but the things listet above. Sonic Adventure is a little closer to these things, but still, in principle, Sonic Adventure is a linear game (compairing to the classical Sonic games) with too few varities in the different action stages. In this point, I think Sonic Heroes is even better than Sonic Adventure (The levels are more different, though their still linear in comparison to the classical Sonic games). Hovever, it is true, that in Sonic Adventure there are multiple ways to finish a Level and in Sonic Heroes there is not. This is a BIG plus for Sonic Adventure. But both, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes, are far away from the classical Sonic games. And you know what? Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes are AWESOME games! I loved and enjoyied Sonic Adventure and now, its the same with Sonic Heroes! And I'm sure I will love Shadow The Hedgehog (the game) to!

You know, I think I know what your problem is. You are maybe a little conservative and can't conform yourself to changes and your to critical and pesimistic, conserning Sonic games. You say Shadow The Hedgehog will be a disapointment; and when the game is out, you will see a disapontment. But this is just because of your "everithing-gets-worse-and-worse" way of thinking. Enjoy the new Sonic games without thinking too much about Sonic's past. The new Sonic games are a type of game for theirselves and have nothing to do with the old Sonic games and are enjoyable in their own way. Be tolerant, enjoy every game in its own way, think positive and you will have a much more beautiful life. Think about it. I didn't mean to insult you with this text. If someone feels offended, please excuse me. But PLEASE think about it. MAYBE you will agree with me!

Besides, what du you want? A game with more variety and big places to explore? I believe Shadow The Hedgehog will have all this characteristics. So, why are you all so critical in terms of this game?

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

The classic Sonic games will always be the best in the series, no matter how good the modern Sonic games may come. However, like most platform characters out there, Sonic is a character of diversity. Each game, we lean on the edge of our chairs to see what crazy idea Sonic Team has in store for us. Sonic the Hedgehog (Original Formula), Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (Super Sonic), Sonic CD (Time Travel), Sonic the Hedgehog 3: Sonic & Knuckles (Lock-On Technology), Chaotix (Elastic Ring-Band), Sonic the Fighters (AM2-Style Fighting), Sonic Adventure (RPG Exploration), Sonic Adventure 2 (Extreme Formula), Sonic Heroes (Team-Action), and now Shadow the Hedgehog (Arsenal). The people at Sonic Team are insane, but that's what makes them so cool. Who knows what the next Sonic title might offer? Expect the next concept to be absolutely ridiculous.

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Post by Pistol »

aliens, swatbots and guns OH MY

this shit's just getting redonkulous now. what hope does sega or sonicteam have of retaining former glories when they throw us games like meat to dogs?
can't remember if this was said or not previously, but the funny part about all this is, they're probably going to push many many units.

:mad:

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Post by Locit »

Professor Machenstein wrote:
Locit wrote:
Professor Machenstein wrote:
Locit wrote:
but Sega either doesn't have a clue which direction to take, or is content to simply tack on weak gimmicks, a far cheaper and ultimately more profitable method.
As for what SEGA could do to the original Sonic 2D engine... I have a couple suggestions. As Sonic runs a loop-de-loop, the camera will center Sonic and the stage rotates independantly, giving you a motion trip on the opticals.
Just a quote without any further words? What are you on about exactly?
That the idea would just be a weak gimmick. It would add nothing to gameplay and would probably just get in the way. It would be disorienting to the point of distraction.
Read between the lines.
Hell, just read the lines.
So you believe you can think of a better idea? It just torks me off that people complain that the Sonic series hasn't had a truely new idea, yet we complain because Sonic Team doesn't keep it pure. Christ, what do you want? If the next Sonic game was a clone of S3&K, we'd complain because it wasn't something new, whilst if the next Sonic was something completely different (No matter how unnesessary or minor), we'd complain because it wasn't true to the original formula. Woe is Sonic Team.
...I just thought you had a crappy idea. I tried to make this point with two quotes and let people connect them, and agree or disagree. I made no assumptions about Sonic or the Sonic series as a whole. Sonic team has had new ideas, they were just bad ones. Innovation is not a bad thing, and you assume too much when speaking of automatic resistance to changes. There should be resistance to bad changes. Also, you don't need to quote an entire passage if it's in the message just above it.

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Post by Omni Hunter »

We're just saying we wont make a decision until the game or a demo of it has been played.
The negativity was sparked by a picture of Shadow wielding a gun, an idea so radical that it had to be a hoax. Unfortunately it's not the case and every other bit of information has had next to no effect (it's not all about guns), or made us even more negative (Shadows history can be changed).
Not to be mad or anything SS but it's a brief recap.

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Post by Professor Machenstein »

...I just thought you had a crappy idea. I tried to make this point with two quotes and let people connect them, and agree or disagree. I made no assumptions about Sonic or the Sonic series as a whole. Sonic team has had new ideas, they were just bad ones. Innovation is not a bad thing, and you assume too much when speaking of automatic resistance to changes. There should be resistance to bad changes. Also, you don't need to quote an entire passage if it's in the message just above it.
But did you not just quote the whole entire passage too? Meh, fair enough. You can think my idea is crappy. Maybe we shouldn't insist SEGA to add it. I mean, innovation is cool, but you're right about opposing crappy ideas. But what idea should be added along with the original formula? Hmm...

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Post by Delphine »

Locit wrote:Also, you don't need to quote an entire passage if it's in the <b>message just above it</b>.
Man, do you have problems with comprehension.

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