Super Sonic Galaxy

[Radrappy]

And despite what SA2/06 apologists will claim

Now, I haven't yet had a chance to try out Wii's Colors, but this is just wrong. You simply can't put these two titles on the same level. There's a number of things in Adventure 2 that are simply wrong, and they just get worse in 06 (and Shadow the Hedgehog before it), but it was definitely a good yet unfocused game, and even if you dislike it (and you totally can, the shooting stages still don't grow on me and it could have at least featured a majority of high-speed action stages like Adventure 1) it's still most definitely not a huge, embarrassing mess of buggy code that cannot in good conscience be called a game.

It's perfectly fair. When people speak glowingly about SA2, it's in reference to Shadow and Sonic's stages, arguably the only fun bits in the whole mess. Are we to ignore the other 2/3rds of the game when we talk about it'? We certainly provide no such luxury to Unleashed. Even those speed stages, that a good chunk of the fanbase believe should be the framework for games to come, play extremely dodgy at best today. I'm not going to claim that SA2 is anywhere nearly as terrible as 06 because clearly, the former has at least 1/3 of a playable game in there somewhere. But they are definitely not so distantly related as some would like to believe.

but somehow I don't think "majority wins, booyah" tells people anything.

There are pages and pages of debate already at his disposal that he can read at anytime and make a decision. But the reality is that a lot of people have enjoyed the wii version, something rare for a 3d Sonic game. Isn't that alone justification for looking into it?

[FlashTHD]

But the reality is that a lot of people have enjoyed the wii version, something rare for a 3d Sonic game. Isn't that alone justification for looking into it?

A hell of a lot of people have bought Halo games and swear by their good graces, is that alone justification for anybody to try them? No.

[Radrappy]

To try them? Yes. To like them? Not necessarily but the chances good!

[Isuka]

Even those speed stages, that a good chunk of the fanbase believe should be the framework for games to come, play extremely dodgy at best today.

Haven't played the PS360 one, but I can totally agree on the Wii/PS2 one here.

I'm not going to claim that SA2 is anywhere nearly as terrible as 06 because clearly, the former has at least 1/3 of a playable game in there somewhere.

The whole game is playable, all three kinds of stages are, it's just that it's a goddamn Sonic game and I'd rather have a ton of the high-speed action stages, less of the hunting ones (ideally, a perfect fusion of both) and none of the shooting and kart ones, those belong to different titles, be it spin-offs or altogether separate franchises.

[(No Imagination)]

I'd rather have a ton of the high-speed action stages, less of the hunting ones (ideally, a perfect fusion of both) and none of the shooting and kart ones, those belong to different titles, be it spin-offs or altogether separate franchises.

This sums up my exact sentiment, down to the letter.

I thought the Knuckles stages (and the final Rouge stage) in SA2 were fun tho'...when I replay the game nowadays I tend to get the most of them - Sonic and Shadow levels feel like flat, boring, artificial racetracks...plus they introduced astonishingly illogical use of invisible walls that is today's staple of the series and personally irritates me to no end.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

I actually kind of prefer Eggman's shooting stages, and all of the Knuckles/Rogue stages (except Death Chamber and Mad Space respectively) to all but the first Sonic/Shadow stages in Sonic Adventure 2. The last two Sonic stages are among the worst designed levels in the 3-D series' history. And yes, to me that includes Sonic Heroes.

I also still loathe end-of-stage rankings. They are especially annoying with Sonic and Shadow.

[Neo]

When people speak glowingly about SA2, it's in reference to Shadow and Sonic's stages, arguably the only fun bits in the whole mess.

Yes, everyone that liked Sonic Adventure 2 only liked it for the speed stages and hated the shooting and hunting stages. This is fact and is not someone's overblown personal opinion.

Sonic Adventure was also clearly better in this regard, with not two but five different alternative gameplay styles, each clearly much more refined than any of Adventure 2's.

Also anyone who dislikes the ranking system simply sucked too much to get anything other than a D or an E

[Radrappy]

Yes, everyone that liked Sonic Adventure 2 only liked it for the speed stages and hated the shooting and hunting stages. This is fact and is not someone's overblown personal opinion.

Overblown opinion? Who wants wants more shooting/hunting stages in future games?

Sonic Adventure was also clearly better in this regard, with not two but five different alternative gameplay styles, each clearly much more refined than any of Adventure 2's.

in SA1 3 of the 5 playstyles were more or less variations on speed stages. And yes, the hunting and shooting stages were much better designed than the ones in SA2. They still have no place in these games though it's true.

The last two Sonic stages are among the worst designed levels in the 3-D series' history. And yes, to me that includes Sonic Heroes.

They sure are.


Come on guys, let's raise or standards a little here. SA2 is not what we need to be looking at for inspiration at any point in time. And we haven't even touched the horrible places it took the series plot/character wise.

[Kogen]

Sonic Adventure 2 is one of those shitty games lost in the ocean of shitty games that fulfilled its purpose of being a shitty game.

[Radrappy]

ok ok, it's not THAT BAD. It just could have been a lot lot lot better. And the story was awful. Everyone happy?

[(No Imagination)]

Also anyone who dislikes the ranking system simply sucked too much to get anything other than a D or an E

Hey! It took me a good portion of my life to unlock Green Hill, much of it spent in those insane(ly boring) kart race levels. I have every right to dislike the damn ranking system.

[FlashTHD]

Everyone happy?

What do you think this is, a hive mind?

For the record, I still enjoy SA2 and its' shooting/hunting stages in spite of what's wrong with them (and in particular how they seemed to deliberately foul up the latter) because they're fun. The kart stages are flimsily implemented but not a terrible diversion. Yet I hated Colors. So does this, by his logic, make me an out-there weirdo whose input is to be considered likely irrelevant information?

Overblown opinion? Who wants wants more shooting/hunting stages in future games?

I don't know what universe you're transmitting from but nobody's saying that.

[Isuka]

I don't really look at Adventure 2 as a source of good ideas. When thinking about newer games (i.e. any and all games after Adventure 2), I kinda did the opposite: I looked at it to see what I didn't want in the next Sonic games. Back in the day I somewhat took the series' positive evolution as granted and thought "okay, the numerous bugs in Adventure 1 are because it's the very first full-scale 3D title and all these extraneous game styles are just marketing stunts to show as much of the Dreamcast's capabilities as possible, they won't be around in the next one", and later on "okay, with Adventure 2 they're trying to polish some of the first one's game styles, the story is worse than the first one but it's alright 'cause they didn't call the first one Sonic the Hedgehog 4, they belong to the 'Adventure series', so maybe it'll go back to the way it was sometime down the line"...

In other words, I was willing to put up with a certain dose of bull during Sonic's early 3D years, as long as the developers knew how to tell it from the good ideas and at least made a honest effort at keeping up the good work and coming up with progressively better and better games. But Heroes' premise and execution ground much of that hope into the dirt, and Shadow's premise alone was enough to crush the remains.

... And then came 06. They played with my feelings, they fucked around with my hope for the series. And I swore I wouldn't take no more bullshit.

And here I am. It's been ten years and one or two hardware generations since Adventure 2, and 3D action gaming has gotten as good as Bayonetta, Vanquish, Ninja Gaiden, et cetera. Remember when the first Adventure was said to "redefine 3D platforming"? How it was at the top of its game graphics-wise (I remember reading it was the single best-looking game until the DC version of SoulCalibur arrived a couple months later)?

This was a champion series, not once but twice. Now it's playing generic, low-budget, third-rate mascot-based platformer on underpowered Nintendo hardware. If I told all this to myself back in 2001, I'd have ended up in the hospital because of a serious contusion in the head for banging it against the wall multiple times.

tl;dr: Adventure 2 was okay by 2001 SEGA standards, everything after it were painful steps backwards doing nothing but repeating many of its mistakes and then adding their own, with precious few to no pros to speak of in a world that was being quickly populated with better, more focused 3D action games.

Adventure 2 was, back then, a AAA title. Now this series can't keep up with the big boys. And that's sad as fuck.

EDIT: Wow. I originally intended to write only what's in the first paragraph and one or two sentences of the second one. Guess I'm not over this yet.

[G.Silver]

Who wants wants more shooting/hunting stages in future games?

If you asked me what I wanted in a future Sonic game, hunting and shooting would not be anywhere on that list, but that doesn't mean I didn't like those parts. Not that I expect this to ever happen, but if they were to make a stand-alone game based on the mechanics in the shooting sections (related to Sonic or not), I know that I wouldn't be the only person here who would be hotly anticipating it.

[Radrappy]

The GHZ : Hot for the shooting segments from SA2.

Adventure 2 was, back then, a AAA title. Now this series can't keep up with the big boys. And that's sad as fuck.

Sega is no longer a AAA developer.

For the record, I still enjoy SA2 and its' shooting/hunting stages in spite of what's wrong with them (and in particular how they seemed to deliberately foul up the latter) because they're fun. The kart stages are flimsily implemented but not a terrible diversion. Yet I hated Colors. So does this, by his logic, make me an out-there weirdo whose input is to be considered likely irrelevant information?

No, but your ability to enjoy SA2 is inconsistent with your inability to enjoy Colors. Which is puzzling.

[Kogen]

SEGA can no longer compete with the high standards that define current-generation console platformers. Shut er down, boys.

And maybe he likes Sonic Adventure 2 because he was more open to new ideas 10 years ago than he is now. It is not like people are going to retroactively go back in time and consider problems now to redefine their tastes in games then.

[Rob-Bert]

Every time the subject of the hunting and shooting stages in SA2 comes up I feel the need to point out that they weren't bad per se, just horribly out of place. I still say they all those alternate gameplay styles could've easily been entire games by themselves. I'd totally play a Knuckles collectathon or an Eggman shooter if SEGA actually had the good sense to make them at any point.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

I like the Knuckles/Rogue stages mainly because they're the only levels in the game where the camera somewhat works. Backtracking through the other four characters' games (especially for the Mystic Melody challenges) is an impossible task thanks to the terrible camera that never pans back at you. I've lost so many lives due to the terrible camera in the shooting stages.

[Radrappy]

I've lost so many lives due to the terrible camera in the shooting stages.

And I've lost so many lives due to that sand that kills you the MOMENT you touch it. Whoever came up with that needs a slap in the face.

[Isuka]

Oh guys, you can't be so serious 'bout those pet peeves.

There are camera issues everywhere in the game, but generally it's not really that what keeps you from backtracking to the pedestals in the Sonic/Shadow stages, it's the stage design itself. You're supposed to find out where the pedestal is, learn to navigate the new path, and then keep retrying the mission 'til you get your A rank. In fact, I usually have some difficulty dealing with the camera in Aquatic Mine's narrow corridors, and most times you have to go on round trips through them, so it gets super annoying.

The same goes for Hidden Base and Sand Ocean, you're supposed to learn the stage layout and enemy placement and work with that. You are actually supposed to get your ass handed to you a couple times so you can learn from it and play well.

If there's something cool about Adventure 2 is that it goes out of its way to discourage sloppy play, and at the same time isn't totally broken (that is, the control is almost always spot-on so you won't suffer unfair deaths, and the camera, while far from perfect, still won't make you hurl). They did go a bit overboard with the last couple stages, though. But hey, aren't Super Mario Galaxy's hardest challenges the most fun to beat?

[(No Imagination)]

A-Ranking Cannon's Core is fun. A-Ranking Rouge's Route 666's fourth challenge, not so much.

By the way you guys, how does the Chao raising handle with non-Dreamcast versions of these games? For Sonic Adventure, I remember taking my chaos chao along on my VMU for the summer and beefing him up, and another summer of doing various tasks in Chao Adventure 2 to beef up his reborn version. How much fun are Chao challenges on a non-VMU system?

[Radrappy]

You are actually supposed to get your ass handed to you a couple times so you can learn from it

Which is fine, except in this case to play the game "well" you are more or less coming up with a checklist of things that won't result in a cheap deaths. As in, "don't fucking touch a button or you will break the game when you go in a loop de loop"stuff.

(that is, the control is almost always spot-on so you won't suffer unfair deaths

No way. this is one of the game's biggest problems. You have to do everything in your power NOT to have your character vault off the edge of a stage. Do you remember how hard that one platforming sequence in City Escape was(the first bottomless pit in the game had you jumping over these orange columns)? It was way easier to just homing attack your way over everything because precise jumping and trejectory planning were nearly impossible. And that's without the goddamn camera spinning all over creation anytime you jumped.

By the way you guys, how does the Chao raising handle with non-Dreamcast versions of these games? For Sonic Adventure, I remember taking my chaos chao along on my VMU for the summer and beefing him up, and another summer of doing various tasks in Chao Adventure 2 to beef up his reborn version. How much fun are Chao challenges on a non-VMU system?

SA2:Battle actually has the definitive experience. Instead of putting chao inside a VMU, you can raise them in a GBA which is great because you can play games, buy fruits, and collect rings. Purists will note however that the hell garden in Battle has been chopped in half compared to the DC version.

[gr4yJ4Y]

Where's the chao hate up in herr?

[FlashTHD]

Which is fine, except in this case to play the game "well" you are more or less coming up with a checklist of things that won't result in a cheap deaths. As in, "don't fucking touch a button or you will break the game when you go in a loop de loop"stuff.

Read: I play SA2 by mashing buttons indiscriminately so simple things like this get me in trouble.

No way. this is one of the game's biggest problems. You have to do everything in your power NOT to have your character vault off the edge of a stage. Do you remember how hard that one platforming sequence in City Escape was(the first bottomless pit in the game had you jumping over these orange columns)? It was way easier to just homing attack your way over everything because precise jumping and trejectory planning were nearly impossible. And that's without the goddamn camera spinning all over creation anytime you jumped.

In order: Wrong because I don't know how you manage to have a problem with such easy jumps, and Wrong because that never happens unless you were spinning the camera (which, stupidly, it only allows you to do when standing still).

Then again, I think you were the guy who once told me they thought switching rails was performed by some incredibly byzantine cycle of button-shuffling.

The Dark Chao garden in SA2DC was a fun design but a bit of a pain to navigate and keep sight of stuff. Its' GC replacement wasn't much better - all they did was take the mountain out leaving over half of the place a giant pool. of blood *eye glint*

[Radrappy]

Read: I play SA2 by mashing buttons indiscriminately so simple things like this get me in trouble.

Yep that's me. Straight up SA2 button masher