Knowing when to quit

Because death would've been too merciful.

Should Sonic Team continue with the Sonic franchise?

Yes – they should continue making Sonic games
8
16%
Yes – but they need to take at least a three year break first
15
29%
No – it should be handed to another Sega department
7
14%
No – it should be handed to Nintendo
6
12%
No – it should be handed to another Japanese studio [post with suggestion]
5
10%
No – it should be handed to an American studio [post with suggestion]
0
No votes
No – it should be handed to a European studio [post with suggestion]
1
2%
No – the series should be retired
3
6%
Other [post with suggestion]
6
12%
 
Total votes: 51

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Baba O'Reily
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Post by Baba O'Reily »

After this next batch, Sonic should be retired and replaced by a more x-treme mascot. Sonic, of course, will continue to make cameos, but he won't star in any more games.

Sonic Team is steadily heading in this direction, and if it's going to save the blue bastard from the shame of shitty 3D gaming, god bless them for it.

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Post by gr4yJ4Y »

Someone mentioned how they've had ideas they've wanted to toy around with Sonic. I have one too, and hear me out here: dual-analog control. The left one could be used to move him like usual and the right used for jumping (by either pushing it in or pressing up) and down for ducking (and rolling) and pressed to do a spindash. While jumping or in mid air, you could point towards the enemy you want to attack and press the analog in to follow through with it. The camera could be moved with a pair of triggers.

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Post by Popcorn »

gr4yJ4Y wrote:Someone mentioned how they've had ideas they've wanted to toy around with Sonic. I have one two, and hear me out here: dual-analog control. The left one could be used to move him like usual and the right used for jumping (by either pushing it in or pressing up) and down for ducking (and rolling) and pressed to do a spindash. While jumping or in mid air, you could point towards the enemy you want to attack and press the analog in to follow through with it. The camera could be moved with a pair of triggers.
I don't get what that would achieve other than an unecessary degree of controlling amiguity.

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Post by gr4yJ4Y »

Well, it could help you spin with more control while running and help aim at enemies while in mid-jump.

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Post by TailsMcCloud »

gr4yJ4Y wrote:Someone mentioned how they've had ideas they've wanted to toy around with Sonic. I have one too, and hear me out here: dual-analog control. The left one could be used to move him like usual and the right used for jumping (by either pushing it in or pressing up) and down for ducking (and rolling) and pressed to do a spindash. While jumping or in mid air, you could point towards the enemy you want to attack and press the analog in to follow through with it. The camera could be moved with a pair of triggers.
No way. toying around with Sonic is what made the new games bad. I say, go back to his roots.

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Post by gr4yJ4Y »

It's just an idea. I thought I'd throw it out there. I think it's actually more simple than the current set up we have (as in, the one seen in SA1 and 2).

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Post by Shadow Hog »

I'd personally thought a dedicated ducking button would be a good idea. Actually, a dedicated anything button would be good, since Sonic Team seems to insist on putting every possible action on the B button more often than not, and it just doesn't work out just as often.

Heck, I thought Heroes could be significantly improved by streamlining the mechanism greatly. First off, you'd be in nothing but Speed formation, because the others suck. So, instead of swap buttons, you'd have dedicated "Speed", "Flight" and "Power" buttons. If you need to invoke one of their special powers, just tap that button and you'll perform the needed action. Jump and tap the flight button, and boom, you're instantly flying (and probably not at that stilted slow speed you were at originally). Need something punched? Hit the power button, and your power character rushes out to punch the closest enemy in the direction you point (with a slight bit of deviation, but not much), and if he falls off a cliff (which he shouldn't, since he'll be stopped automatically should he get too close), your other characters won't suffer. Need a quick Spin Dash? Just tap the speed button, all three will do their thing, and you'll all zip off. Now, this is far from fixing everything wrong with the game, but it's a step in the right direction.

But yeah, that wasn't the idea I'd had (Heroes doesn't need to come back, at all). I was thinking more games with an undefined center of gravity (trying to work that one out in MMF2 right now), or something of a Sontroid. It could work. Not with Sonic Team being the way they are right now, but given that in the old days Sonic's speed was a tool to use in platforming more than the sole focus of the series, just apply it to a more free-roaming area - carefully designed ones which specifically have speed-oriented obstacles to cross, which is the biggest obstacle to such an idea that I can think of - and yeah, something quite interesting could occur. I was thinking 2D, myself, but you could probably do 3D, if you get 3D working properly at all. (Plus it'd mean no bottomless pits. That'd be nice, wouldn't it?)

Also, an idea I ripped from Quake II (see Quad Damage) - item boxes you can store into an inventory and call up for later use. Best used for shields, invincibility (or Muteki or whatever it is you guys call it) and speed shoes, but I suppose having a Super Ring up your sleeve would come in handy, in case you, well, really suck. You could buy them from dedicated stores, but I haven't really thought a proper currency through yet. Maybe you'd automatically get some for beating enemies, grabbing rings, or just running around very fast?...

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Post by Tsuyoshi-kun »

I don't want them to make another 2-D Sonic game. I feel they touched all the possible places they could in Sonic 1-3, Knuckles, & CD. And I don't see how going back to 2-D would add anything...you have a limited scope in 2-D gameplay-wise. Honestly, aside from better graphics, bigger levels, and more music and sound effects of better quality, what could they really add?

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Post by Gaz »

I disagree with that. Sonic Rush is the best Sonic game to be released post Sonic & Knuckles and it's a side-scrolling game(albiet with 3-D graphics). I think one of the reasons why it worked was because it didn't try to stay to close to the formula of the original Genesis games and actually adds a few new elements that generally work quite well. I still think there is potential for side-scrolling games but I admit there are limits in comparison with full 3-D games.

Anyhow, on the main topic I think Sega should get another team to handle development of the Sonic series but I'm not sure who. There still seems to be a few talented developers working at Sega and I'm sure if they tried they could put together a new team who could do a better job with the Sonic series but I guess as long Sonic Team's games continue to sell well it doesn't really matter to them.

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Post by TailsMcCloud »

Tsuyoshi-kun wrote:I don't want them to make another 2-D Sonic game. I feel they touched all the possible places they could in Sonic 1-3, Knuckles, & CD. And I don't see how going back to 2-D would add anything...you have a limited scope in 2-D gameplay-wise. Honestly, aside from better graphics, bigger levels, and more music and sound effects of better quality, what could they really add?
I wasn't saying make then 2D, I was saying making then game based on the 2D engine. Like Sonic Adventure was.

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Post by G.Silver »

I was saying making then game based on the 2D engine. Like Sonic Adventure was.
What on earth are you talking about?

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Post by TailsMcCloud »

Make the games basic, don't try to make things inavateive and differnt from the rest of the sieries (Other then the story,chareters, and stages and some other things). No team play,guns or raceing. Make them more like Sonic Adventure 1 & 2, unless they have something that will for sure work.

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Post by FlashTHD »

gr4yJ4Y wrote:It's just an idea. I thought I'd throw it out there. I think it's actually more simple than the current set up we have (as in, the one seen in SA1 and 2).
If I can barely make any sense of your over-convoluted dream control scheme, then no it doesn't.
I don't want them to make another 2-D Sonic game. I feel they touched all the possible places they could in Sonic 1-3, Knuckles, & CD. And I don't see how going back to 2-D would add anything...you have a limited scope in 2-D gameplay-wise.
Not if you model the levels in 3D and get creative.
Honestly, aside from better graphics, bigger levels, and more music and sound effects of better quality, what could they really add?
You forgot "more inventive levels". And more levels in general.

I would like to see one more really good 2D Sonic on consoles, but who was it here that said he'd rather play a crappy 3D game and know things are moving forward than a crappy 2D game and know that things aren't?
After this next batch, Sonic should be retired and replaced by a more x-treme mascot. Sonic, of course, will continue to make cameos, but he won't star in any more games.

Sonic Team is steadily heading in this direction, and if it's going to save the blue bastard from the shame of shitty 3D gaming, god bless them for it.
Reading this post makes me want to reach through my monitor and stab you.

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Post by Light Speed »

I think if both the 3D game and the 2D game are going to be crappy than I'd rather play the 2D. Sonic Team has a bad habit of making really shitty aggravating cameras, so just for my sake I'd prefer playing the shitty 2D game. If they are both shitty though then who cares. Also don't hold your breath on the 2D Sonic game, unless you count the PSP racing thing or all the Dimps creations.

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Post by Popcorn »

Hey, in other news, I finally worked up the courage necessary to borrow Shadow from the game shop I work at. It's a small shop and we can borrow anything we like without even having to tell anyone, so that should give you some grasp of my disinterest in it.

A lot has been said about the game already so I'll make my predictable opinion on it brief: it is shockingly bad. I was hoping that, at worst, it'd just be mediocre, perhaps offering some solid, SA2-style speed and platforming if I could look past all the gun shit, but oh no. Shadow fills me with alternating feelings of nausea and confusion. Nausea thanks to all the depiscably vile decisions they've made (aliens? shotguns? Shadow? etc); confusion because at any given moment I will have absolutely no idea what is going on. Where am I? What am I supposed to be doing? And most mystifyingly: why does Shadow control like a lubricated brick? Shadow uses the same engine they've been using for the past eight years-- you'd think they would at least have managed to preserve some semblance of a responsive control scheme. Instead, it's like they spotted that control was the last remaining area they hadn't fucked up with apparently malicious intent-- and went in for the kill.

I also played Sonic Riders. It was the final insult. Sonic is dead.

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Post by Wooduck51 »

aliens? shotguns?
You must not think in terms of a sonic game, it is a Shadow game.
confusion because at any given moment I will have absolutely no idea what is going on. Where am I? What am I supposed to be doing?
Run forward and blow up anything in your path, simple.
why does Shadow control like a lubricated brick?
After Heroes, Shadow's controls were a godsend for me. But I had a Gamecube, what did you play it on? Either way, I had almost no problem with the game, Only rarely did I die from a control problem, the bosses were not stupid freakin' cheap (Metal madness?) and they fixed the grinding perfectly.

In the end though SEGA left me in misery, I was so sure that they would make ShTH a worthy truly solid game that would not take a already rooted like of Shadow to really appreciate, they instead gave me that which we discuss here, at least the CG cutscenes were really awesome.

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Post by Ngangbius »

Popcorn wrote:I also played Sonic Riders. It was the final insult. Sonic is dead.
What about Sonic 2K6? I thought you was one of the few people here who were cautionaly optimistic with this title--or am I thinking of someone else?
Wooduck51 wrote:
aliens? shotguns?
You must not think in terms of a sonic game, it is a Shadow game.
Doesn't make it any less retarded. Though I guess the idiocy of those ideas would fit in well with such an "outstanding" character such as Shadow.

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Post by BlazeHedgehog »

I'd kill for the ability to work on the Sonic series, as I think many would. I've been thinking about using all this free time I have to write up a full design doc for a professional Sonic game I'd like to do.

I voted "keep making Sonic games as long as they take a break", though. Take a step back, really take a hard look at the problems, and make a serious effort to fix them. None of this, "OH WE WANT TO FIX THESE PROBLEMS EXCEPT BECAUSE WE'RE WORKING ON THIS GAME AT A BREAK-NECK PACE, WE WON'T REALLY BE ABLE TO DO MUCH".

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Post by Wooduck51 »

Shotguns were retarded, I'll give you that. But what is so wrong about aliens other than lack of originality?

You people must not realize how much of me died when I finally completed ShTH, for those of you who did not care to begin with it doesn't matter much, but for me who was in great anticipation of this game, it was horrific.

And on the topic of making Sonic games work better, no one has thrown any ideas out for having free roaming levels with realistic boundries.

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Post by Ngangbius »

Wooduck51 wrote:Shotguns were retarded, I'll give you that. But what is so wrong about aliens other than lack of originality?
The whole concept including the aliens sounds like it came from a bad Sonic fanfiction.

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Post by Shadow Hog »

Wooduck51 wrote:And on the topic of making Sonic games work better, no one has thrown any ideas out for having free roaming levels with realistic boundries.
A "Sontroid" doesn't qualify as one?

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Post by Light Speed »

What would you do in a free roaming Sonic game? They kind of had that in Sonic Adventure, and I think it worked fairly well, but without the action stages I don't see how you would ever get anything accomplished. Unless it was set up kind of like Kameo where you can enter 'Temples' and stuff where they are basically levels, but you enter them seamlessly so it doesn't feel like it. That really wouldn't be different from SA1 though.

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Post by Arcade »

No, it should be handed to another Sega department whjith experience in making good 3D games.

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Post by Shadow Hog »

Light Speed wrote:What would you do in a free roaming Sonic game? They kind of had that in Sonic Adventure, and I think it worked fairly well, but without the action stages I don't see how you would ever get anything accomplished. Unless it was set up kind of like Kameo where you can enter 'Temples' and stuff where they are basically levels, but you enter them seamlessly so it doesn't feel like it. That really wouldn't be different from SA1 though.
Design the stages so that they're simultaneously Adventure AND Action stages. That is, there's a definite point A and point B at all times, but it's up to you to decide how you get there, and what you do along the way. Several paths (or at least, the main one) would be set up to behave like an Action Stage, except there'd be no bottomless pits or instant-death traps, since that goes against the philosophy of free-roaming. Other paths, or perhaps various parts interspersed around the main one, would allow for a much slower pace, and have a few quckie puzzles to solve.

Then, when you reach point B, you're given a point C to get to (maybe after a boss fight), and point B is your starting point. Point C might involve doing the same path you took backwards, but it diverges at some area that you just KNEW something was up with, via the use of a new ability you earned at Point B, thus revealing a new area entirely to blast through.

And so it goes on and on, revisiting old areas with new moves to access new ones, and maybe getting a side quest here and there. Eventually you'd find the final area and beat some boss, but perhaps you'd not have found all the areas you could have because you didn't explore as much, and as of such the ending's weaker (like beating Richter in SotN, when you're supposed to beat Shaft instead). That's how I'd work it.

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Post by Wooduck51 »

The free roaming thought sprung up while watching the movies from Sonic CD. In reality I'm not sure exactly how you would do it, but a slightly less linear level design would be nice. What I meant originally though is how you would do such a thing without using the ever cheap "big mountain range" or "bottomless gullies"

And I haven't played any of their recent games, but would Ubisoft be a good developer?

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