Sonic Generations

[Popcorn]

I'm not convinced by the "Sonic fans will never be happy" argument - if anything, the praise Colors gets suggests to me they're too easily pleased - but if it is the case at all, it's Sega's fault for mishandling the franchise for 20 years and splintering the fanbase and public understanding of the character so badly. I think the real solution at this point is to just stop making the damn things.

But, as ever, I can only speak for my own preferences, whether I'm talking about Sonic, Metroid or cereal.

[M.C.Dillinger]

Really, because I went and spoiled myself on the entire story in sonic generations I somehow knew exactly what would happen.And they spend the entire game beating around the bush for something obvious. I like that their actual writers working on the character now since colors the sonic comes off too soft and gentle for my tastes.

Of course it are all to me sonic would be a slightly mean-spirited (think American cartoons from the 1930s) borderline alcoholic. And in generations, would have fun at the expense of his past or future self at least once. I'm pretty sure half the fan base wouldn't want that. Quite a few people seem to like that sonic talks like every action-adventure cartoon character that's on the air right now. To me Sonic is a teenager left out in the world to his own devices and answers to no one. Not that I think sonic is one of those douche-bags that hangs out smoking from the shopping mall all day, but to me it implies a very different character than what we see in Colors and Sonic X.

[FlashTHD]

And they've got the Sonic model all wrong. He's too cute and dumpy, too mid-90s CG. If they're going for a classic look, I'd have preferred Sega to model it off the Sonic 2 title screen, not the Sonic 3 one. (Did anyone like that Sonic 3 title screen?) It annoys and depresses me that the fans are being so easily seduced by this cheap imitation, this cynical appeal to our emotional triggers. Why do we want this, exactly? We already have the classic games, and they're better.

Thank you. This echoes my sentiment on it just about to a tee.

[Esrever]

I think you hit on it right the second time, Pop... there probably is no pleasing all the fans, but it's definitely SEGA's fault for fragmenting them so thoroughly.

I mean, for me, it was a huge breath of fresh air to play through Colours' "lighter" story, with a goofy mad-scientist Eggman and a sarcastic Sonic and it's lack of anime tropes about ancient uncontrollable elemental beasts and the power of friendship. (Even though some of the jokes were DOA.) But it only took five minutes of lurking some other Sonic forums looking for soundtrack downloads to discover the massive number of discontented fans disappointed that Generations didn't return to the "serious" stories like the ones found in '06 and Unleashed.

We all want different things out of Sonic. Pop, I think you in particular want a very specific thing. And that thing is never, ever going to happen again, so I sure don't blame you for losing interest entirely. But for me, my frame for Sonic has never been especially narrow. I mean, I like the original games best, but I also just really like the character. I enjoy seeing him drawn in different art styles and placed in different contexts. Generations' Classic Sonic is not based on my favourite early version of the character, either, but I haven't exactly been dying to see any of those designs resurrected. But I like this take -- it's cute and almost Felix-the-Cat-esque, and I like how it plays off the "cooler" looking modern Sonic.

I don't really want any new "classic" Sonic games... I think that ship has sailed and they will inevitably disappoint, NSMB style. But I want to see them do new stuff with him... stuff that carves out it's own identity, like Galaxy. I want to see more games like Colours -- not, like, more games in space with colourful aliens, but more games that successfully mesh Sonic's traditional themes of speed, platforming and exploration with fun, unique new settings and ideas. It's OK if they don't feel exactly like the originals. It's OK if the physics are different, or if Sonic slides instead of rolls, or if there is a level with a giant hamburger. I don't think that violates the integrity of the character. Just stick to the core themes, make it fun to play, and surprise me with everything else. That's what I want.

Which is why I was originally kind of apprehensive about the giant rehash that is Sonic Generations! In the end, I feel like there are enough new and interesting reinterpretations and fixes in it to justify it, but only as a kind of celebratory one-time thing. I don't really want them to do this again.

[M.C.Dillinger]

I think you hit on it right the second time, Pop... there probably is no pleasing all the fans, but it's definitely SEGA's fault for fragmenting them so thoroughly.

I came to that conclusion some time ago. The best solution I could think of was to split the franchise among multiple continuities. I might be wrong about I think there are four different directions fans want the series to go. It seems to me that fans either want the character to go back to the early 90s and stay there, the return of sonic adventure 1/2's dramatic storylines and continuity, a reboot of sat am or to stay the course.

By maintaining multiple continuities said I can please most fans (the ones who want furry porn will always be out of luck). Sega can simultaneously sell more sonic wall taking their time to ensure quality (assuming each continuity gets it's own staff.) These alternate versions of the character can even have their own unique play mechanics. This could give incentive to casual fans to check out multiple versions of the character since they were each plate distinctively. People seem to accept that there can be very different versions of Batman but it might be a top cell to convince them that their multiple Sonics.

Realistically they could only be about three or four which opens the slippery slope of what exactly they should be. After all how many people on a sonic who drifts from town to town partying until he passes out? Because that's what I think of sonic but I'm not sure if anyone could accept that. <_<

It is not a confusing disaster there could be a big anniversary crossover kind of like sonic generations was even more Sonic the Hedgehogs!

If we want to discuss this further we should start a new thread about it and keep this one on topic about Sonic Generations.

[Popcorn]

We all want different things out of Sonic. Pop, I think you in particular want a very specific thing. And that thing is never, ever going to happen again, so I sure don't blame you for losing interest entirely.

Well, I don't want any new games at all like the ones we already have, if that's what you mean. For me, 2D Sonic was done with S3K, but I think there's still a great 3D Sonic that's yet to be made. Naturally I have my own crackpot ideas about what such a game might involve, but this forum has given too much space to such nonsense already. I will say, however, that I think it should be possible to capture the essence of the character and simultaneously produce a classy, exciting - perhaps even definitive - new experience without resorting to gimmickry or nostalgia. I think the whole concept of New vs Old has been clouded and distorted absurdly, both by Sega and the fans. This "classic" vs "modern" dichotomy, as made explicit in Generations, won't help.

I don't give too much thought to Sonic these days, but Sega's recent appeals to nostalgia - Sonic 4 and now Generations - are designed specifically to target people like me, and I feel compelled to respond. Or at least complain about it.

[Emperor Omochao]

From what I've seen from the gameplay it seems like nostalgia is really just a bonus and not the driving force for the game. It seems to have good quality. Also, I think the charming way classic Sonic behaves in this game couldn't be better to be honest. I can live with classic Sonic having his own spin off games with modern Sonic exploring new territory. If there's only two fragments then why not just enjoy them both simultaneously; as long as the quality is good.

[Radrappy]

The best solution I could think of was to split the franchise among multiple continuities.

this is madness sir. Sega can hardly afford to release one game a year. How are they going to do four? I don't think they need to appeal to anyone. Just make good games and people will buy them. It works for Mario ya?

I think there's still a great 3D Sonic that's yet to be made. Naturally I have my own crackpot ideas about what such a game might involve, but this forum has given too much space to such nonsense already. I will say, however, that I think it should be possible to capture the essence of the character and simultaneously produce a classy, exciting - perhaps even definitive - new experience without resorting to gimmickry or nostalgia.

I will say that sega's decision to pursue the whole "race car sonic" style of gameplay has kinda thrown a wrench in the hopes of fans looking for another SA styled installment. My own ideal sonic game is one in which sonic moves at much much slower speeds, is more controllable, gets around using momentum/rolling, and is light spirited as well as dialogue free. There are also only 6 characters : Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Metal sonic, and Amy. But I'm happy with colors and generations for the time being.

[Esrever]

Well, I don't want any new games at all like the ones we already have, if that's what you mean. For me, 2D Sonic was done with S3K, but I think there's still a great 3D Sonic that's yet to be made.

Yes, exactly! It's that hypothetical "definitive" 3D Sonic that I meant as the very specific thing you wanted, the Sonic game that captures the open feel and physics-based gameplay of the originals. And I get that! I'd like to see it someday, too, although I don't think it will ever happen. (And to be honest, I have doubts about how exactly how possible it would be, even in the best of hands.)

I just think (and stop me if I'm wrong) that hypothetical game is pretty much the ONLY think you want from Sonic at this point. Whereas I -- as much I'd love to see that too! -- am also kind of digging this other thing they're doing now. With Colours, they finally managed to mash all these newer Sonic concepts -- boosting, homing attacks, power ups, racing-esque segments -- into a solid formula I really enjoyed. And boy, I really do mean FINALLY, because it was the first console Sonic I really liked since the original Sonic Adventure. They did it by making the game 2D about 70% of the time, which is kind of cheating, but they did it.

Aquarium Park is one of my favourite Sonic levels ever -- a huge, multi-tiered stage built very cleverly around the immensely entertaining and very "Sonic-y" drill ability. I feel like that's a great (and rare) example of a modern Sonic stage that really evokes the feel and ideals of the classic games while at the same time being tremendously different from them.

Colours had problems, especially in the jump-handling department... but they were technical, not conceptual. I'd love to see them build off what that game started. And that's the main reason I have any hope for Generations, even though it's nostalgia-driven nature kind of forces it to be more of a side-step than a next-step.

[Locit]

Just stick to the core themes, make it fun to play, and surprise me with everything else. That's what I want.

Well, I guess that makes two of us. Basically it's the same way I feel about Mario, although by that standard he's been fewer terrible games over the years.

Thanks for articulating that!

[Cuckooguy]

Not even feeling, like, anger or disgust, just feeling... totally numb. Like: this is beyond me.

Though I used to be extremely loyal to the Sonic name, these days I'm very indifferent. I did play Colors and I do like some aspects of it, particularly how it reminded of older games in how you can't experience a level fully just by playing it once, but I dislike how, since Sonic Unleashed, how focused it is on speeding and boosting all the time. I feel as though all the constant speeding and boosting should perhaps be reserved in certain doses via speed shoe power ups in 3d Sonic games much like how 3d Mario requires you to use power ups to pass certain levels but notsomuch 2d Mario games where power ups aren't mandatory to complete a level. Perhaps like the running down the building side of Speed Highway!

I will probably play Generations, but I'm going in with a blank mindset. It will probably be a couple years after it's released before I even play it! I only started on Metal Gear Solid 4 a couple days ago...

[Esrever]

I agree about the boosting! One of the things I liked about Colours was how it relegated the boost refills to item boxes and certain enemies. That way, they could control it like any of the other colour powers, and create some levels where you could never boost. (Although there weren't exactly a lot of them.) I'm kind of bummed to see it go back to being a ring-charged thing in Generations.

And no problem, Locit! I've been thinking about it a lot as Generations approaches -- trying to put my finger on why I liked Colours, of all things, even though it was almost nothing like the kind of 3D Sonic game I'd spent the last decade "hoping for". It's still kind of alarming to step back and realize that my favourite Sonic title ever outside the classic core five actually came out in 2010.

[Crisis]

Sonic Colours was just a little too jarring for me. Conceptually it was all right - it felt as if people had actually put some thought into how the mechanics, especially Wisps, would interact and built the levels accordingly - but it constantly felt like the execution was off.

The physics were dodgy, Sonic didn't jump right, there was a food level (which you have to admit would never have been considered for a main series entry in the 90s), the writing was kind of cringeworthy, the game's visuals were a bit all over the place without much consistency, etc. I guess it just made me aware that there was a time when I would have expected better.

I'll be interested to see how Generations shapes up. £20 is a good price for it (Colours still goes for £35 new), so I guess that's a start.

[Popcorn]

I only started on Metal Gear Solid 4 a couple days ago...

I actually only got round to finishing that a month ago. I started it a year before, but jesus, those opening hours are dull... and the rest isn't a huge improvement. It's an underdeveloped overproduced pile of shite. I used to give Kojima a free pass with absurd cut scenes, but this time he really screwed the pooch.

All our heroes are dead. You can never go back.

Uncharted 3's out tomorrow. :D

[Popcorn]

Hey, Esrever. Twitter keeps suggesting I follow Sam and Fuzzy, because I have three friends who do - IRL friends no less, I'm not even talking forum losers. And did I mention I used to work somewhere with a guy who used to wear your hungry blue hedgehog shirt?

I guess you're the one who ended up famous.

[Esrever]

Ha! I don't know about that. But you know, Yuji Naka posted a photo of that shirt on twitter. That was a life highlight! If only my comic and I were as popular as the shirt is. (I guess I should have done a comic about hungry hedgehogs.)

I think I was able to handle the food level in Colours because it was a food-themed area of a theme park. Plus, I liked the way it was simultaneously was mashed-up with a sort of rocket-launch-base theme. It made for a cool look, and it had a great colour scheme. But it was OK, because it was all a construct. That wasn't a REAL giant hamburger. Or... or was it? I hope it wasn't made out of Wisp meat.

Anyhow, one day 'til launch! I'll know I like Generations if it can tear me away from Nate Drake.

[M.C.Dillinger]

Maybe one day for you but for me generations won't release until Friday.
I just HAD to save $20 and pre-order through Steam. I would call this a mistake but the demo on PlayStation 3 is clearly running at 30 FPS; my PC can do way better than that (my system can run Crisis, Battlefield 3 and Metro at roughly high and mid-high.)

[gr4yJ4Y]

I was completely nonplussed. A unique sensation of recognising something and yet finding it completely unrecognisable. I don't know if I've ever had a sensation of going from total brand loyalty to complete disconnect... so different from playing [...] and thinking "this sucks! I'm gonna post on the internet about it!" - nothing so passionate as that. Not even feeling, like, anger or disgust, just feeling... totally numb. Like: this is beyond me.

I'm getting old.

This is how I felt when I played Mario Galaxy 2. I had already spent a ton of time on Galaxy 1 and 2 was the same thing with new levels and a few other new things. Going from something that you used to get excited for to something that doesn't make you feel anything is likely part of getting older I suppose.

I want to see more games like Colours -- not, like, more games in space with colourful aliens, but more games that successfully mesh Sonic's traditional themes of speed, platforming and exploration with fun, unique new settings and ideas. It's OK if they don't feel exactly like the originals. It's OK if the physics are different, or if Sonic slides instead of rolls, or if there is a level with a giant hamburger. I don't think that violates the integrity of the character. Just stick to the core themes, make it fun to play, and surprise me with everything else. That's what I want.

This resonates with me so much. It's exactly is how I feel about Sonic right now. Any attempt to mimic the success of Sonic 1-&K will likely disappoint.

[Blount]

I only started on Metal Gear Solid 4 a couple days ago...

I actually only got round to finishing that a month ago. I started it a year before, but jesus, those opening hours are dull... and the rest isn't a huge improvement. It's an underdeveloped overproduced pile of shite. I used to give Kojima a free pass with absurd cut scenes, but this time he really screwed the pooch.

I think somewhere along the line, Kojima forgot that video-games are supposed to have player input. As in, he's not supposed to be making a goddamn movie. But hey, at least now I know I'm not crazy. I just wonder how long the game actually is if you skip all the cutscenes. I'd say about an hour.

Esrever, I'm kind of lazy, so thanks for posting exactly how I feel about the Sonic series in general and the last few games in particular.

[M.C.Dillinger]

I'm a big Metal Gear fan and I was the impression that Kojima got bored halfway through and wanted to be done with Metal Gear so badly that he crammed in three games worth of plot. He says himself that he intended it to be the last metal gear, a game so good that fans would never ask for another one. I personally consider MGS 4 to have the weakest script in a series but also having the most nuanced gameplay of the series.

What are the requirements for getting the rank of big boss that the results screen is beating the game on the hardest difficulty under five hours. I hope that answers your question.

[Tsuyoshi-kun]

I'll admit it - after Sonic Heroes, I kind of fazed out of Sonic games for a looooong time after. I never touched Shadow the Hedgehog, I only played the demo of Sonic 06 and never the actual game, and I never bought Sonic Rush Adventure after I played (and sold) Sonic Rush. I've bought 5 Sonic games since Heroes, only one of which I enjoyed - Colors.

I liked Colors because it forced you to slow down a bit and explore, kind of like how the 16-bit games had areas to explore if you took your time. If Sega keeps going down this route with the next few Sonic games, I don't care what weird-ass gimmicks they throw at me as long as the gameplay remains solid and the controls are good enough. I don't want to replay the same games I did in the 1990's - I want to play something new.

On Generations itself - it look nice, but it it looks like a rental game and not a first-day-buy type of game. Anyone else feel this way? It's cool and all how there's a lot of old tunes in the game, but cool tunes didn't help Heroes.

Kind of off-topic, but did you ever get around to Sonic Colors, Green Gibbon!?

[Gaz]

On Generations itself - it look nice, but it it looks like a rental game and not a first-day-buy type of game. Anyone else feel this way? It's cool and all how there's a lot of old tunes in the game, but cool tunes didn't help Heroes.

This is kind of how I'm feeling. I wasn't overly impressed with the demo and the game seems overreliant on the whole nostalgia factor. It doesn't look bad and I think I'll somewhat enjoy it if I play through it but I'll probably wait for a price drop before getting it. Sonic Generations seems to have achieved a level of mega-hype I haven't seen a Sonic game get in a long while and I don't really understand why. I think part of the problem for me is I never really liked the whole remade levels idea and honestly I still don't. I think I'd feel more enthusiastic if this game showed a bit more originality.

[Arcade]

I liked the DS version of Colors, maybe because I saw it as it was, a game targeted to young kids where the only playable character is Sonic. Still, a hard mode would have been welcomed.

Now About generations, I honestly I am not very interested in it, Want classic Sonic? I can play the Genesis games, want to replay levels from older games ?I I own said games so I can play said levels in the games they came from.

Yes I will buy this game, in a year or two, is not in my top to buy list. I reached the point where I don't care, maybe they should have finished Sonic 4, that could have made me buy another Sonic game before next year. A Full version of Sonic 4 could be fun, right?

[gr4yJ4Y]

Sonic Generations seems to have achieved a level of mega-hype I haven't seen a Sonic game get in a long while.

I went to my local GameStop last night to pick up Uncharted 3 (don't ask me to explain why I didn't just wait until this morning) and there were only 3 people there for it (including myself). There was also 3 people there to pick up Sonic Generations.

[Radrappy]

Sonic Generations seems to have achieved a level of mega-hype I haven't seen a Sonic game get in a long while.

I went to my local GameStop last night to pick up Uncharted 3 (don't ask me to explain why I didn't just wait until this morning) and there were only 3 people there for it (including myself). There was also 3 people there to pick up Sonic Generations.

I went to the midnight release of Uncharted/Generations last night. I live in the LA area so a ton of people turned up. Most of them were there for drakes though. I only saw about ten copies of generations set aside behind the counter next to a hulking mass of Uncharted boxes.

I played the game for about 3 hours, just enough to unlock all the main stages and play each of them. I have to say, I'm a little disappointed with the title so far. Each of the nine levels can be broken up as thus:

Great
Modern Planet Wisp
Classic Rooftop Run

Good
Modern Rooftop Run
Modern Sky Sanctuary
Classic Sky sanctuary
Classic Crisis City (surprisingly)
Classic Seaside hill
Classic city escape

Boring
Modern Green Hill
Classic Green Hill
Modern Chem Plant
Classic Chem plant
Modern City escape
Modern speed highway
Classic speed highway
Modern Crisis City
Classic Plant Wisp

Awful
Modern Seaside Hill

To be frank, most of the stages are just kind of boring and unimaginative. There are some nice set pieces and slight eyebrow raising bits but ultimately nothing truly inspired. I found myself often thinking that the level was about to take off only to suddenly reach the end. There's a lot of that. I had a buddy watching me play for the first hour and I can't tell you how many times he said "that's it?" Only Modern Planet wisp and Classic Spagonia truly feel like a full course in terms of length and pacing. So the game, like the individual levels, seems like it ends right before it gets good. I think Generations could have definitely benefitted from more acts per stage too because the challenge levels are not a worthy substitute. The ones I've played are extremely short and not very engaging or well done.

But even worse are the performance issues. This is probably the most disappointing part of the whole thing. The game will regularly experience framerate snags that are a complete boner kill to whatever is happening. They happen often, nearly every level, and noticeably more so in the classic portions. For those of you that played the Modern GHZ demo, remember how when you stomp the bridge, there's this awkward framerate snag? Imagine that happening as you go through a loop de loop. It's really disheartening and unforgivable in this day and age. In addition to the framerate there is some heavy loading. Anytime you accomplish something, the game will spend 15 seconds to load and then another 5 to save immediately afterwards. It doesn't seem like a big deal but it's pretty taxing on one's patience and certainly adds up. There are some small presentation issues too, like how before a character is saved from being turned to stone it cuts to black making the events kind of choppy. And the sonics on the main menu screen don't even wag their fingers! Come on!

Anyway, I plan to give the game more time tonight but I totally can't help feeling that it all feels half baked. Colors feels like a much stronger title.