All-new 2D Sonic rolling out in 2010

[Alexrd]

?

That was one of the leaked pics, wasn't it?

Btw, I got the same face as his when I looked at the red target on some of the screens.

[(...)]

Seeing the thread is a clusterfuck, I just want to know is there anyone here honestly still excited for this game? I mean I just want those people to give me a logical and convincing argument on why they have faith in this game when it is being directed by the same person who gave us Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic Rivals to name a few stinkers in a post old-school-Sonic Team company.

I'm excited for this game.

Worst case scenario, we have a game that is the best bits of the first three games. Best case scenario, we have a familiar return to form that adheres to a winning formula.

I mean look at it. Blue skies, checkerboard hills, no peripheral characters, a return to momentum-based gameplay, no gimmicks, no pressures about game-length that facilitate the need for gimmicks. This is the game we've been asking for for almost a decade, and you're really going to quibble over repetitive trees or inconsistent checkerboard bevelling??

So far, I've read two previews of the game. Nintendo Power said it's full of win, and some guy on a forum said it sucked. But guys on forums always say that things suck, so I've seen no reason not to be optimistic.

Best of all, because it's episodic, we're in a win-win situation. If Episode 1 is good, then we have more episodes to look forward to. If Episode 1 is bad, then they can fix any problems in Episode 2.

As for the dev team. It's being directed by the same person who gave us Sonic 3 and Nights Into Dreams, and it's being made by the team who gave us Sonic Rush and Street Fighter 4. If there's any dev team who can deliver a high-quality, nostalgia-heavy HD psuedo-remix of an early nineties game and put a number 4 in the title, it's Dimps. :)

[(...)]

Also, scans

http://www.sonicstadium.org/news/ngamer ... cial-stage

[FlashTHD]

I'm getting Kingdom of the Crystal Skull vibe here - the end result will be perfectly OK to good product that will end up being criticized for not living up the high standards the fans have set during a hiatus instead of any technical or real failing on the part of the product.

You don't trust any of us to use common sense? (although I might not either after reading (...)'s bullshit) I think it just looks flat out mediocre in every sense of the word and it doesn't help that the development staff is among the least trustworthy they could have assembled.

[Esrever]

I don't know about everyone else, but the reason I keep yattering on about superficial elements like graphic tiles and music is because that's all we really have to talk about so far. We all know that what really makes or breaks a 2D Sonic game is level layout and movement physics, and we haven't seen any of that yet. Until I do, it's kinda hard to be either excited OR disappointed!

[Crowbar]

To be fair, we DID see a bit of movement physics already, and they looked terrible.

[j-man]

You're a good man, Open Bracket Dot Dot Dot Close Bracket.

[Blank]

I don't really see much reason to be hyped about this besides the acknowledgment they gave to the old trilogy. Anyone can copy some fan criticism and address it in an interview, but rewarding speed is not really important to me. If the level design can't be varied or interesting then momentum-based gameplay is just a nostalgic band-aid over the real problem, mediocre level design.

If anything, the title alone doesn't give me much reason to believe it won't be anything we haven't already seen in the advance series. Which is exactly how this game is feeling to me right now, Sonic Advance HD. Sure I might enjoy it if its on par with the advance series with a few elements tuned closer to the classics, but its nothing post-genesis we haven't seen before. The advance games had their moments and so will this probably.

I won't buy it until there's an obligation to believe otherwise. Retro cash-ins like these annoy me. To see people praise the game already as if we didn't see it yonder ago on the GBA also annoys me. SEGA's marketing strategy is obviously working, but not enough for me to accept a whole nother trilogy of mediocrity.

Also I hated SF4 and had no idea that Dimps was involved. Efffff those guys.

[Segaholic2]

Worst case scenario, we have a game that is the best bits of the first three games.

You are vastly underestimating what the worst case scenario is truly capable of being.

[Yami CJMErl]

Yeah. Worst case scenario here is more like "Revenge of Sonic Genesis" bad.

[Delphine]

Wow, guys.

[Malchik]

Worse case scenario? Well, every trilogy has it's retard sister best left in the basement. We had many shitty Sonic titles since then, so this would be like it's shitty retarded sisters sixth generation offspring bred by the same father, who's was also exposed to agent orange in Nam.

[Ngangbius]

I mean look at it. Blue skies, checkerboard hills, no peripheral characters, a return to momentum-based gameplay, no gimmicks, no pressures about game-length that facilitate the need for gimmicks. This is the game we've been asking for for almost a decade, and you're really going to quibble over repetitive trees or inconsistent checkerboard bevelling??

You sure about this?

Takashi Iizuka: As you know, Homing Attack was an action featured from 'Sonic Adventure' and it didn't appear in the classic series. In Sonic 4 the Homing Attack is added, and this provides sense of speed that none of the classic series have.

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co. ... p?id=16088

...I thought this was supposed to play more like the classic Sonic, and the homing attack is the gimmick. Also, I'm not so sure if this title is really momentum-based seeing the screenshots that have been released have speed boosters littered all over the level. But maybe that is just the first level and the rest will abandon them so you actually earn your speed like the Sega West mouthpiece said so. Though I have a feeling they are just as clueless on how Sega of Japan/Sonic Team construct their games as we are. Sort of like Nintendo of America knows jack shit on NCL's business decisions.

Best of all, because it's episodic, we're in a win-win situation. If Episode 1 is good, then we have more episodes to look forward to. If Episode 1 is bad, then they can fix any problems in Episode 2.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ...Seriously?

As for the dev team. It's being directed by the same person who gave us Sonic 3 and Nights Into Dreams, and it's being made by the team who gave us Sonic Rush and Street Fighter 4. If there's any dev team who can deliver a high-quality, nostalgia-heavy HD psuedo-remix of an early nineties game and put a number 4 in the title, it's Dimps. :)

And that same person hasn't been in charge with something truly outstanding for nearly 14 years. Look at his track record for the past 10 years(not including Special Thanks credits):

Sonic Adventure 2(: Battle) (2001) — Director, Game Designer, Enemy Game Designer, Level Designer
Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut (2003) — Mission Mode Game Designer
Sonic Heroes (2004) — Director, Level Designer, CG Movie Director
Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) — Director, Lead Game Designer, Level Designer, Scenario Writer, Movie Supervisor
Sonic Riders (2006) — Recording Coordinator
Sonic Rivals (2006) — Director, Concept Design, Scenario Writer, Producer
Sonic Rivals 2 (2007) — Director, Concept Design, Scenario Writer, Producer
Nights: Journey of Dreams (2007) — Director, Producer, Lead Game Designer
NiGHTS into Dreams (PS2 Version) (2008) — Supervisor
Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (2008) — Recording Coordinator

Look at that. That's nearly 10 years games ranging from mediocrity to pure trash. Many of his game flounder because of one or a few major gimmicks that are either badly implemented or just a lousy idea period. You telling me he suddenly improved "overnight" because of this one upcoming game? I'm willing to bet that the reason his older games were much better than the newer ones was that he was part of the old-school Sonic Team who had much more sense on what ideas worked and what didn't. When nearly everyone of OS-ST left you are left with people who are barely experienced with developing the classic games, and working under a person who is more like a odd relation to Akitoshi Kawazu.

Also, Dimps made the dreadful Sonic Advance 2 & 3. :p It seems that quality of the games depends on who is directing it and well...

[Alexrd]

Best of all, because it's episodic, we're in a win-win situation. If Episode 1 is good, then we have more episodes to look forward to. If Episode 1 is bad, then they can fix any problems in Episode 2.

That implies that they should wait for the public reaction before they start making episode 2, which they already started.

[(...)]

...I thought this was supposed to play more like the classic Sonic, and the homing attack is the gimmick.

Calling the homing attack a gimmick is kind of harsh. I mean Sonic 2 had the spin dash, 3 had the weapon shields, CD had the "running on the spot" dash, the homing attack is more like those.

I always figured a gimmick was more like a feature that fundamentally changes the gameplay (guns, time travel, pinball, werewolves, etc).

My point is, we've had none of that yet. Three months to go, and the usual warning bells haven't gone off yet. Shadow isn't in it. They haven't announced any new characters. They're not crow-barring a completely different game into the product etc.

So far, the only negative I've seen with my own eyeballs is some shoddy jump physics on a video, leaked from a build on Partnernet. I dunno, maybe that video leak was taken from the final build, FOUR MONTHS BEFORE RELEASE. Then again, maybe it wasn't.

And that same person hasn't been in charge with something truly outstanding for nearly 14 years. Look at his track record for the past 10 years(not including Special Thanks credits):

Sonic Adventure 2(: Battle) (2001) — Director, Game Designer, Enemy Game Designer, Level Designer
Sonic Adventure DX: Director's Cut (2003) — Mission Mode Game Designer
Sonic Heroes (2004) — Director, Level Designer, CG Movie Director
Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) — Director, Lead Game Designer, Level Designer, Scenario Writer, Movie Supervisor
Sonic Riders (2006) — Recording Coordinator
Sonic Rivals (2006) — Director, Concept Design, Scenario Writer, Producer
Sonic Rivals 2 (2007) — Director, Concept Design, Scenario Writer, Producer
Nights: Journey of Dreams (2007) — Director, Producer, Lead Game Designer
NiGHTS into Dreams (PS2 Version) (2008) — Supervisor
Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (2008) — Recording Coordinator

Yep, all true (although three of those are ports. Hardly fair).

I don't particularly feel like defending Takashi Iizuka. But I will say this; Every failed Sonic game has failed because it has tried to force the original gameplay mechanic into an era where it just doesn't fit.

Take Shadow for example. It came out around 2005-ish, when virtually every franchise was getting a gritty reboot. If your game wasn't brown and moody, you were doing it wrong. We had Prince of Persia: Warrior Within, GRAW, Bomberman Act Zero, Need for Speed Most Wanted, Final Fight Streetwise etc. Take this market trend, throw in the requirements for 3D, a 5+ hour game length, and an unrealistic production schedule, then make that work in a Sonic game. No matter who your director is, you'll end up with Shadow.

Similarly, take Sonic Unleashed. There's a good-to-great 2.5D platform game hidden inside a God of War rip-off, and again there's some bullshit progression system to hide the game length. Throw in quick time events, and that's 2008 in a nutshell.

Sonic only works in the 16 bit era. Putting him anywhere else just ends badly. With the downloadable content, we suddenly have a market that facilitates the ability to emulate the 16 bit era. Suddenly, 2D is okay again, as is a game with only 12 levels in it, as is making a pretty niche product that only gamers over the age of 25 will truly appreciate. Iizuka has absolutely no reason or excuse to fail this time. His job is very easy this time round. He just has to deliver the game he did 15 years ago, but in HD and with different levels.

That implies that they should wait for the public reaction before they start making episode 2, which they already started.

For real? That means they must have finished Episode 1 already. Where did you read that they started Ep 2?

[Alexrd]

For real? That means they must have finished Episode 1 already. Where did you read that they started Ep 2?

Yes. I've read it on an interview. They already have finished Episode 1, yes. I'll post it when I found it.

[Dr. BUGMAN]

Calling the homing attack a gimmick is kind of harsh. I mean Sonic 2 had the spin dash, 3 had the weapon shields, CD had the "running on the spot" dash, the homing attack is more like those.

I always figured a gimmick was more like a feature that fundamentally changes the gameplay (guns, time travel, pinball, werewolves, etc).

We've had the homing attack before, and it had always sucked. So did the Super Peel-out, and we were lucky enough for it disappear after the Game Gear games.

[cjmcray]

the power-ups are of the old order – speed-ups, shields and the trademark glittering invincibility were the only ones we witnessed,

http://xboxlive.ign.com/articles/107/1079808p1.html

Glittering invincibility is back! (I hated the glowing green invincibility from the 3D games)

Homing-attack aside I think I'm actually excited for this. I just hope there's no rails involved.

[Alexrd]

Glittering invincibility is back!

It was already seen on some of the first screenshots of the game.

[(No Imagination)]

Every failed Sonic game has failed because it has tried to force the original gameplay mechanic into an era where it just doesn't fit.

... your simplicity left me speechless.

[Opa-Opa]

Every failed Sonic game has failed because it has tried to force the original gameplay mechanic into an era where it just doesn't fit.

... your simplicity left me speechless.

I think it's quite the opposite. They try to force an unoriginal gameplay mechanic, inherent to this era, into a game where it just doesn't fit.

[(No Imagination)]

Every failed Sonic game has failed because it has tried to force the original gameplay mechanic into an era where it just doesn't fit.

... your simplicity left me speechless.

I think it's quite the opposite. They try to force an unoriginal gameplay mechanic, inherent to this era, into a game where it just doesn't fit.

The problem with those games is that they've got Takashi Iizuka directing them (and he does just what you described).

Scratching their failure to stuff like astrosocionomical positions sounds ... such bullshit I cannot even begin to think of how to stand tall and politely debunk it without going all caps like a troll. Seriously now:

No matter who your director is, you'll end up with Shadow.

*FACEPALM*

Hirokazu Yasuhara may have been out there in the dark and gritty corner with Iizuka while making Jak II. BUT THE GAME WAS STILL GOOD.

Shadow was NOT.

[Isuka]

What's more, some of (...)'s examples actually were pretty fine games (WW, GRAW and NFS:MW).

I also share Ngangbius' opinion. Speed boosters are only to be found in high-speed rollercoaster-like stages, like Chemical Plant or Stardust Speedway, and nowhere else. I really don't need more than one of those levels in a six or seven stages-long game, the rest should be pretty varied platforming-heavy challenges. It doesn't matter if you end up with somewhat so-so stuff like Carnival Night, at least it's better than mindlessly warp-speeding your way through half the game's duration or more.

And infact there is at least one way of bringing classic 2D Sonic back to relevance in this day and age. It absolutely requires a AAA budget, a great artistic direction (hint: prerendered crap isn't good) that really squeezes nowadays game hardware, creative level layout (let the designers have fun implementing as many action-oriented ideas based on the primitive game mechanics as they can come up with), cool music and focus on the one genre the game is supposed to belong (no pointless fillers, no Chao Worlds, no nothing other than high-speed, momentum-based 2D platforming).

And yeah, these are exactly the reasons why a proper return to form for the series is not gonna happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. And I'm not even being pessimistic, maybe a good 3D Sonic game may come along, some time. It all depends on whether the current Sega actually develops some interest in this, but I remember they originally developed Sonic the Hedgehog in order to have a chance at competing in the home console market, so... I think I've made my point.

[Rob-Bert]

(no pointless fillers, no Chao Worlds, no nothing other than high-speed, momentum-based 2D platforming).

Am I the only one who got any sort of kick out of those? I can understand having beef with them being required to earn Emblems, but the Chao World simply being there couldn't hurt that much could it?

Actually scratch that. Make Chao raising a stand-alone game. Hell, it's pretty staggering at how all of those extra genres present in all the 3D Sonics would've turned out better as standalone games (the Tails/Eggman shooting levels come to mind).

[Kogen]

Am I the only one who got any sort of kick out of those? I can understand having beef with them being required to earn Emblems, but the Chao World simply being there couldn't hurt that much could it?

Get a Pokemon game? There is no need for this stuff in Sonic. It is not very good or even related to the franchise at all.

Actually scratch that. Make Chao raising a stand-alone game. Hell, it's pretty staggering at how all of those extra genres present in all the 3D Sonics would've turned out better as standalone games (the Tails/Eggman shooting levels come to mind).

It is called 'Panzer Dragoon'.