All-new 2D Sonic rolling out in 2010

[Kogen]

Big brawl at Sonic Retro over this, just look at poor Tweaker's reaction!

Okay, I'm sorry, but shut the fuck up. You can into the tail-end of the topic insulting people for reasons you clearly don't understand. You completely missed the whole wealth of discussion we had before on the subject and as such entirely miss the point. Stop being such a bitch.

Nothing better than grown men fighting over 3 seconds of mock footage.

[Segaholic2]

Isn't it so much nicer here, where we're (almost) all bitter, jaded cynics? Ahhh. Feels good.

[Kogen]

I am sure FlashTHD is going to be very thrilled at the entire ordeal.

[Esrever]

Man, it's not just Sonic or anything. I automatically assume EVERY game will quite likely be terrible. I like pleasant surprises!

[j-man]

I'm probably the most depressing person I know, but Goddamn it if this news doesn't make me feel like a seven-year-old again. Jesus, there's so much butthurt over at Sonic Retro you'd swear it was a commercial for Preparation H. Heyooooooo

On the "motion control" tip, the Sega dude specified it was for certain areas of the game only. Anyone else want to rampantly speculate on the return of Sonic 2-style special stages? It sure beats editing character artwork into our idealised version! Christ, it's like Weird Science for furries.

[Locit]

It sure beats editing character artwork into our idealised version!

Are they doing this?

No wait don't tell me.

[j-man]

You didn't see that whole debacle? It was worse than this phantom Sonic 2 HD shit they've been gouging each others' eyes out over. WTF HIS SPIKES ARE WRONG LET ME TRY NO U for all eternity. I'd say there's probably a circle of Hell reserved entirely for Sonic Retro, but even the Devil has his limits.

[Crazy Penguin]

It started to today. Sonic 4's coming out. It's no way the same as the 2006 debacle. They're not reinventing anything, they're continuing from where we all want them to.

I sincerely doubt they truly are. In an alternate universe where Sonic Team made Sonic 4 instead of NiGHTS into Dreams... we'd probably have seen something along the lines of the huge levels of Sonic 3, new Zone concepts, a return of the element shields and lush 2D graphics like Astal or Rayman.

I'll be shocked if Sonic 4 makes a sincere attempt of building and improving upon Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

What we're seeing here is almost certainly the Sonic equivalent of New Super Mario Bros. It borrowed ideas from SMB3 and SMW but didn't even attempt to match their scope or innovations. Ditto for Mega Man 9, which was apparently more Mega Man 2.5. Sonic 4 will surely be a "continuation" of Sonic 2 more than anything else - not that this is necessarily a bad thing.

On the "motion control" tip, the Sega dude specified it was for certain areas of the game only. Anyone else want to rampantly speculate on the return of Sonic 2-style special stages?

That would be kind of cool. The Sonic 2 Special Stage has become something of a definitive model for the series, so given Sonic 4's nostalgia overload I'd be very surprised if they didn't use it. Of course this basic template can range from anything as sublime as those in Sonic 3D Saturn to the complete cluster-fuck of ass featured in Sonic Heroes.

[Sammybeany]

That trailer went below my already rock bottom expectations. I know it showed very little, but the presentation is undeniably and irreconcilably fucked. The fact that they're including a homing attack only adds further insult to an already insulting mess.

What it boils down to, very simply, is that they just don't "get it." They haven't for the past decade.

Iizuka is directing, btw.

Wish I had more to say.

[Crazy Penguin]

But hey, Halogen robots from Sonic 3. That's kind of neat to see three classic games represented with the first three enemy reveals. I wonder if any of Sonic CD's antagonists make the cut, or if they'll even delve into the 8-bit games' roster - the Bane Motoras from Sonic & Tails were pretty cool. Speaking of antagonists, whilst I'm of the opinion that the "new" style Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and even Amy look just fine in 2D platformers the "new" Dr Eggman throws me every time! More so than usual here. Is this the first time the new Eggman has been on the end level bonus plate (Advance 1 just used an emblem)?

[j-man]

What we're seeing here is almost certainly the Sonic equivalent of New Super Mario Bros. It borrowed ideas from SMB3 and SMW but didn't even attempt to match their scope or innovations. Ditto for Mega Man 9, which was apparently more Mega Man 2.5. Sonic 4 will surely be a "continuation" of Sonic 2 more than anything else - not that this is necessarily a bad thing.

I've yet to play NSMBW so I'm still not sure what everyone's so upset about, but if there's one thing I can tell from all this "homing attack" backlash it's that people really don't want anything new, gameplay-wise; I know I don't, but I'm not throwing some self-righteous strop like the Sonic Retro folks over what I think I "deserve" from a computer games company. Everyone's got their own idea of what they want from this, and as such it's never going to meet expectation. It's still fair to give the thing some time to grow before you start pruning it, though.

3D graphics or no, if this had come out in 1995 people would be going mental for it. It's this try-hard, fool-me-once, self-entitled whingeing that's derailing the game thus far, not any creative decision of the dev team. "We" asked for another game just like the ones we played when we were kids, and now we're getting it we're moaning over shit like the dust he kicks up when he runs. In 1995 we would've gone spare over Sonic kicking up dust. It's like going into McDonalds, complaining that they don't make the Big Tasty anymore, and then they bring the thing out on a solid gold tray and you say you wanted a Whopper. To mix an already convoluted metaphor, just go to a different fucking restaurant already.

That would be kind of cool. The Sonic 2 Special Stage has become something of a definitive model for the series, so given Sonic 4's nostalgia overload I'd be very surprised if they didn't use it. Of course this basic template can range from anything as sublime as those in Sonic 3D Saturn to the complete cluster-fuck of ass featured in Sonic Heroes.

Yeah, tubey special stages all the way, sir. I sincerely hope you have to collect 50 rings and hit a Star Post.

Speaking of antagonists, whilst I'm of the opinion that the "new" style Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and even Amy look just fine in 2D platformers the "new" Dr Eggman throws me every time! More so than usual here. Is this the first time the new Eggman has been on the end level bonus plate (Advance 1 just used an emblem)?

I think this is the first time those ending marker things have actually been used at all since Sonic 3! Tell you what though, ditto on the Robotnik design, it's slightly jarring given the retro context. We all know it would be unrealistic for them to drop it entirely, though. It wasn't a passing stylistic change, they shook up the whole thing and it's never going back, which is something that some people are having a hard time coming to terms with.

[Dasher]

WTF is that shit? Iizuka has done it again, someone please kill that man! just implode the entire Sonic Team buildings.

Sonic looks like some Sonic Heroes shit and the levels look like ass, plus homing attack? this is crap. The Fans win, SEGA is dead, end of story.

[j-man]

shut up shut up just stop talking fffffffffffffff

[Dasher]

I can tear this thing apart but...

Yeah, you're right I don't even need to say anything, whats done is done.

So long.

[Crazy Penguin]

What we're seeing here is almost certainly the Sonic equivalent of New Super Mario Bros. It borrowed ideas from SMB3 and SMW but didn't even attempt to match their scope or innovations. Ditto for Mega Man 9, which was apparently more Mega Man 2.5. Sonic 4 will surely be a "continuation" of Sonic 2 more than anything else - not that this is necessarily a bad thing.

I've yet to play NSMBW so I'm still not sure what everyone's so upset about,

I meant the DS game. I quite liked it, but it was a BIG step down from SMB3 and SMW. I understand that they were intentionally aiming to recapture the simplicity of SMB1, but I don't think they even managed to do that either.

but if there's one thing I can tell from all this "homing attack" backlash it's that people really don't want anything new, gameplay-wise; I know I don't, but I'm not throwing some self-righteous strop like the Sonic Retro folks over what I think I "deserve" from a computer games company. Everyone's got their own idea of what they want from this, and as such it's never going to meet expectation. It's still fair to give the thing some time to grow before you start pruning it, though.

3D graphics or no, if this had come out in 1995 people would be going mental for it. It's this try-hard, fool-me-once, self-entitled whingeing that's derailing the game thus far, not any creative decision of the dev team. "We" asked for another game just like the ones we played when we were kids, and now we're getting it we're moaning over shit like the dust he kicks up when he runs. In 1995 we would've gone spare over Sonic kicking up dust. It's like going into McDonalds, complaining that they don't make the Big Tasty anymore, and then they bring the thing out on a solid gold tray and you say you wanted a Whopper. To mix an already convoluted metaphor, just go to a different fucking restaurant already.

I agree with the sentiment that after 16 years without a "big console" 2D Sonic platformer, especially given the various directions the series has taken, no game could truly match everyone's desires. In 1996 Sonic 4 would've been taken mostly at face value, but in 2010 people will look at it with an unfair amount of demands and preconceptions.

It doesn't really matter what colour Sonic's eyes are. It doesn't really matter whether or not Flickies and Pockies are in the game. They should be, damnit, but that's just window dressing. The homing attack on the other hand is something that genuinely could throw the whole game off. We know enough from the 3D Sonics to hazard a guess as to how it might work in a 2D game - perform a double-jump and Sonic attacks the nearest enemy. I cringe every time I see this used in a fan game because it's such an obvious gameplay breaker and was created specifically for a 3D environment. Maybe they'll surprise us all and it'll end up being Sonic 4's single greatest innovation that puts the Mega Drive/CD games to shame, but right now I can't even begin to conceive how it could be implemented without undermining the basic gameplay formula. What's the point of a 2D platformer where you're not even expected to aim for the enemies yourself? If they're re-emphasising the momentum and pinball physics then why give the player a cheat button? How many people had trouble hitting the enemies in the Mega Drive games anyway?

Yeah, tubey special stages all the way, sir. I sincerely hope you have to collect 50 rings and hit a Star Post.

I prefer the Sonic 1 and CD method. Similar principle in that it rewards the player for collecting rings and not taking hits, but doing so at the very end of the level insures that the player doesn't start slacking. With Special Stages between the levels rather than during they act as a change of pace/breather without actually interrupting the flow of the regular gameplay.

Sonic 3's hidden Big Rings were great because they promoted exploration, but think that would be better served with something unrelated to the Special Stages and Chaos Emeralds, ala Sonic Pocket Adventure's jigsaw pieces or Sonic CD's machines/projectors. New Super Mario Bros had a decent system in place with its Star Coins.

Personally I hope they refrain from using Super Sonic in Sonic 4. The Super Sonic final boss fights became dull and predictable long ago, but Super Sonic in the main levels isn't a better alternative. It was always one of the few things that didn't work in Sonic 2/3&K - why reward the most skilled players with what is essentially Easy Mode?

I think this is the first time those ending marker things have actually been used at all since Sonic 3! Tell you what though, ditto on the Robotnik design, it's slightly jarring given the retro context. We all know it would be unrealistic for them to drop it entirely, though. It wasn't a passing stylistic change, they shook up the whole thing and it's never going back, which is something that some people are having a hard time coming to terms with.

They're both good designs, it's just weeeird in this context. "Classic Mode" skins would make for a fun unlockable though, or rather lucrative downloadable content.

[Shadow Hog]

If it means anything, J-Man, I feel your pain. It kind of pains me to see people demand things they "deserve". It's a friggin' Sonic game, you deserve nothing. Hell, this is the closest we've ever come to the classic games since Sonic Advance, and you proclaim it's terrible because of nitpicking? Haven't you ever heard the phrase "beggars can't be choosers"?

There are only two things that bother me. One, when the "Sonic evolving over the years" thing shifts to Sonic 4 Sonic, the jumping becomes ridiculously stilted (whereas in the other two that jumped, it was incredibly smooth) - that had better not be indicative of how Sonic actually jumps (but it feels a lot like how he jumped in Unleashed, so I wouldn't put it past them). The other being the Homing Attack - despite what Penguin says, it WAS in the Advance games (at least, Advance 2), and it really didn't add anything. I'm hoping it'd be a rather USELESS Homing Attack like that, and not "Homing Attack over a bottomless pit for several miles :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D". Even then, there really shouldn't be a need for it.

[Alexrd]

Meh... I was hoping for the worse...

My complains are just about the smoking effect, the running animation, and the glassy grass. The rest, for what I saw, was ok.

[j-man]

some things

Mate, I can see what you're saying about the homing attack, but it probably won't be a mandatory thing. I mean, I never used the Insta-Shield. I hardly even used the Spin Dash. Yeah, it's been done to death (and generally poorly) in fan games, but let's see how the big boys do it. It might not be a particularly welcome addition, but I doubt it'll be game-breakingly bad. I know everyone's getting all worst-case-scenario about it, but if they've really been listening to people then we won't see any bottomless pits 'til the last Zone.

Fair shout on the end-of-level Special Stages. I just love me some Sonic 2.

[Opa-Opa]

Am I really the only one who thinks it looks horrible? Don't get me wrong but it looks like G-Sonic HD.

[Wooduck51]

Time to start hoping for playable in level Super Sonic again. Maybe with a new honest to god Super Sonic theme, JUST LIKE IN SONIC 2!

[Yami CJMErl]

$5 says the motion control will have something to do with the Special Stages (assuming there are any), a la the Sonic Rush / Rush Adventure ones.

On the other hand, my excitement for this has been ratcheted up a few notches, especially since it's coming so soon (and for Wii, which I wasn't too sure about beforehand). Aesthetics are a minor concern for me as long as the gameplay / controls don't suck.

[Senbei]

Little late to say it, but yeah. This looks like an Advance game.

[P.P.A.]

All right, I lost interest. The concept art of the flower and the palm tree were already bad enough, being but hollow shadows of the Sonic 1 models (they gave them realistic leaves ffs). But this confirms what I had not been doubting from that point on anyway, the whole thing is bland and soulless. The graphics lack any sort of spirit and watered and stripped down the already lacking S2's and S3's art to the point where it#s this liquid and naked that it's almost a googirl - or rather a goo-fat-ugly-man, seeing how it fails to arouse even the slightest. Plus:

It looks. Like a fucking flash game.

Putting the homing attack there is stupid enough, and it being confirmed to attempt to follow up Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 kills any sort of interest which was left over from the early realisation that whatever it was trying to imitate it would just end up lacking any sort of innovation, creativity, or understanding for the original anyway.

So yeah, I couldn't care less.

[Sammybeany]

Am I really the only one who thinks it looks horrible?

Not at all. I believe a few people in this thread have directly said it looks awful.

Sonic's model is poorly animated and fails to deliver on any hopes of reviving the classic style or coming up with something fresh. The badniks look dorky as hell, and the puffs of smoke/explosions that come from them after they've been destroyed are tacky. The dust Sonic kicks up while running is overdone and out of place. The level art could be passable, but when you consider the classic "make the first level one of the most impressive to look at" paradigm it becomes quite underwhelming.

The G Sonic analogue must be apt, because SuitCase said the same thing to me earlier. I really cannot to see why anyone would be optimistic about this. Even if you temporarily ignore Sega's tremendously bad track record, it still fails to excite. Maybe I just hate fun, but I don't derive much joy from unapologetic mediocrity. I don't see any ambition or promise in this game.

[Xyton]

3D graphics or no, if this had come out in 1995 people would be going mental for it. It's this try-hard, fool-me-once, self-entitled whingeing that's derailing the game thus far, not any creative decision of the dev team.

The important difference is that if this had been announced in 1995, the precident would have been that Sonic Team makes awesome games. Today the precident is that Sonic Team makes games that have potential, but never truly realize that potential. They need to show in a concrete way that this game is going to be awesome for people to get really excited, I think, because they're not exactly starting on a high note. That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what comes of this at the very least. It's cool that they're gunning for Sonic 4 proper.

I suppose it's worth mentioning it's likely still a work in work in progress and may look different in its final form, blah blah blah.