The GHZ Forum

Crowbar wrote:I think Sonic 1's safe from the "Sonic sucks" crowd, though. I've seen people bashing the whole series for years but at worst it's "Everything past the first game sucks".

Unfortunately, by this point i've learned not to underestimate the definition of "worst".

yyo dude i have sonic 1 on my ipod it rox its the best game snes > sega lol

All the Genesis games are good, so I do not see where people get weird little issues from. They either dislike the series or like to whine.

Crowbar wrote:I think Sonic 1's safe from the "Sonic sucks" crowd, though. I've seen people bashing the whole series for years but at worst it's "Everything past the first game sucks".

It's really not.

Maybe the problem is that Sonic 1-3+K stand out from today's Sonic titles because the prior aren't what people have come to expect of the series as of late (fastfastfastfastfast).

Or it could be that it's now fashionable to bash the Sonic series*. I'm sure you couldn't ridicule Mario or Zelda to the same extent without people expecting a good explanation.

*Of course, Sonic's developers really aren't helping the situation these days...

Locit wrote:

Crowbar wrote:I think Sonic 1's safe from the "Sonic sucks" crowd, though. I've seen people bashing the whole series for years but at worst it's "Everything past the first game sucks".

It's really not.

Sonic Genesis anyone?

Oompa Star wrote:

Locit wrote:

Crowbar wrote:
I think Sonic 1's safe from the "Sonic sucks" crowd, though. I've seen people bashing the whole series for years but at worst it's "Everything past the first game sucks".

It's really not.

Sonic Genesis anyone?

It's really sad that gamers haven't yet begun to bash upon the original game, but SEGA can't help but egg them on.

Wombatwarlord777 wrote:I'm sure you couldn't ridicule Mario or Zelda to the same extent without people expecting a good explanation.

I didn't like Mario Bros. 3 that much when replaying it last fall. I'm overcoming all these little tasks, but it never feels like it adds up since I can skip so many levels while playing through it. And I could never get into Zelda (NES) or Zelda II. A Link's to the Past really doesn't compare to Link's Awakening or the 3D Zeldas. All the dungeons start to look the same after awhile too.

*world explodes*

Honestly, nothing is perfect. You can find flaws in everything and if all that the player is noticing is the flaws then they aren't going to have any fun with the game, especially if it's a game that's more than 10 years old and you've played through it a few times. Remember "fun", guys? It remembers you.

Link's Awakening on Game Boy really was the best Zelda game until Ocarina of Time came along. It is still way up there amongst the best. I was surprised by the rawness of A Link to the Past when I finally played it. Link's Awakening operated on a smaller scale, but despite that (or because of it) it was much tighter and more refined, and the dungeons and overworld was much more varied, had more character.

The original Zelda still holds a lot of charm due to its simplicity and how grand and explorable Hyrule feels. You're very much thrown into the deep end and have to figure out things on your own. Took me forever to find the second dungeon. This is also one of its major downfalls however, particularly when finding an all important hidden passage requires bombing ordinary looking walls without any real clues to go by.

Zelda II, let's just say it's the odd duck of the series and leave it at that. I think it would have been more fondly remembered if it didn't carry the Zelda brand name.

As for the classic Sonics (1, 2, 3&K and CD), I would have to agree with the general sentiment that it's the weakest of the line-up, which is quite odd considering that the average video game fan would rate it as the high point of the whole franchise. It still consider it to be a very good game though, and 3/4 of the split screen 2 player mode was tremendously enjoyable. What happened to 2 player modes anyway? Sonic 3's was an utter farce.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is overlooked by just about everyone who isn't a Sonic fan. The general games player still views Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles as two separate games and is unaware of how much extra content the combined version has. If any Sonic game deserves a HD remake it's Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Give it a less clunky title and assuming things don't get ballsed up people would finally realise that it's the Sonic equivalent of Super Mario World.

Crazy Penguin wrote:Give it a less clunky title and assuming things don't get ballsed up people would finally realise that it's the Sonic equivalent of Super Mario World.

This guy. He gets it.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is fun, but after watching a recent Let's Play of it at SA I've come to realize that some of the levels go on a bit too long. Especially true with Marble Garden, Carnival Night, and Sandopolis. The latter level is especially annoying in that it has sections/gimmicks that repeats itselt too much such as the building scaling and those conveyor-like platforms.

Still, I would take S3&K over the game that overshadowed it(and almost every other game) the same year. You know, the game that begins with a D and ends with onkey Kong Country.

But Ngangbius, if you don't like Donkey Kong Country, you are stupid! It's insulting, but it's also the truth!

Most Sonic fans actually get mad at me when I just call it Sonic 3 without mentioning Sonic and Knuckles as a different game.

I actually know a lot of people that like one and hate the other. So Sonic fans are retarded and other people witness this and stay away.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles' one biggest flaw is the Special Stage/Bonus Stage system. They kill the momentum and also make the power-ups and extra lives too easy to gain. Then there's the awkward split mid-way when you can give up your Super form and collect another set of emeralds, a cool and unexpected scene, but also felt like you were being robbed of a reward at an arbitrary point. That reward shouldn't have even been there in the first place though, the Super forms remove all fun and challenge from the game.

With all of the special stages and super forms removed the game would have been much stronger structurally.

However, a big part of the game's appeal was the sprawling levels and explorability, namely finding the Big Rings that lead to special stages. I feel that this feature would have been stronger if they were replaced with another collectible item and if you were encouraged to go back and collect all of them after completing the game. Something similar to the figurine collection in the Smash Bros games or Wind Waker perhaps.

Sonic Pocket Adventure and Sonic Advance 3 had a similar system in place with Jigsaw Pieces and Chao, however both were infitely cruder than Sonic 3's hidden Big Rings and Advance 3's was still tied into the Special Stages and Chaos Emeralds.

Sonic Advance 2 kind of had something similar too, but you had to collect all 7 emblems in one attempt - fuck that! And then if you failed the crazy hard Special Stage you had to do it all over again. And you had to do it with every character, even though there was very little difference in how they played. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, what's up with you Sonic Advance 2?

So umm, my conclusion is that the Special Stage system only worked in Sonic 1, even though the most awesome Special Stages were in Chaotix and the Saturn version of Sonic 3D. But both those games sucked.

Crazy Penguin wrote:Then there's the awkward split mid-way when you can give up your Super form and collect another set of emeralds, a cool and unexpected scene, but also felt like you were being robbed of a reward at an arbitrary point. That reward shouldn't have even been there in the first place though, the Super forms remove all fun and challenge from the game.

I never really understood this argument. I mean, consider that you have to go through all the trouble to find the special stages in the first place, and that by the time the average gamer has managed to complete them all, they've effectively doubled the time they would've spent playing the game (Emphasis on "average", since a person just starting out isn't going to know that you can have all of the emeralds by the end of the first or second stage in either S2/3&k)- that's where the whole challenge aspect stems from. As for fun, are you saying that there's no fun to be derived from just blasting through the game like that? I'd think that most people wouldn't have managed to collect all of the emeralds on their first run through the game anyway, so the Super forms only add to the overall replay value of the games.

As for the bonus stages, they break the momentum of the game, sure, but couldn't the same be argued for any bonus stage in any game, ever? If the player is well and truly hung up about having to stop for a minute to have fun, it's not like they're mandatory, and even then, they're a nice addition when you consider that they're the only way to gain access to certain shields in some zones, and that shields are generally few and far between when you aren't willing to go out of your way for one. And when they can be lost just as easily, and when they don't really make the game that much easier, anyway (Sonic was never hard, honestly), I really don't think it's a big enough thing to warrant it being called a flaw.

Also, Sonic 2 is awesome and better than the original in every conceivable way.

Ritz wrote:I never really understood this argument. I mean, consider that you have to go through all the trouble to find the special stages in the first place, and that by the time the average gamer has managed to complete them all, they've effectively doubled the time they would've spent playing the game (Emphasis on "average", since a person just starting out isn't going to know that you can have all of the emeralds by the end of the first or second stage in either S2/3&k)- that's where the whole challenge aspect stems from. As for fun, are you saying that there's no fun to be derived from just blasting through the game like that? I'd think that most people wouldn't have managed to collect all of the emeralds on their first run through the game anyway, so the Super forms only add to the overall replay value of the games.

This is true, but he is talking about fans who would find them easily now. Would be nicer if the game had a hard mode. But looking back on it, we know it was rushed and will likely never be fixed now.

Also the one in the first zone that forces you into it is annoying.

As for the bonus stages, they break the momentum of the game, sure, but couldn't the same be argued for any bonus stage in any game, ever? If the player is well and truly hung up about having to stop for a minute to have fun, it's not like they're mandatory, and even then, they're a nice addition when you consider that they're the only way to gain access to certain shields in some zones, and that shields are generally few and far between when you aren't willing to go out of your way for one. And when they can be lost just as easily, and when they don't really make the game that much easier, anyway (Sonic was never hard, honestly), I really don't think it's a big enough thing to warrant it being called a flaw.

In Sonic 1, it was after each level. This game has them mid-level. But since most of the special stages are optional (meaning you can ignore them), it is not really an issue. As long as nothing is constantly forced, I do not see how anyone can complain much about it.

Also the pinball and electric bonus stages sucked. Only the gumball one was nice and helpful (like who needed to earn extra lives?).

Also, Sonic 2 is awesome and better than the original in every conceivable way.

Not really. The rolling aspect of the level design is not in Sonic 2 + as much. It has different gameplay. Like in Sonic 2 you can spindash and the levels are all made for that. Sonic 1 has curved ground and such, and you can do stuff like go through walls. I think they are equally as good, as sequels to good games should be. Liking either game better is due purely to personal likes of the specific aspects of the game (like I enjoy the general theme of 2 more, so I like it more, both games are just as fun to play).

Kogen wrote:Also the one in the first zone that forces you into it is annoying.

Can't you just spin dash back under it?

Locit wrote:

Kogen wrote:Also the one in the first zone that forces you into it is annoying.

Can't you just spin dash back under it?

No. You go through it as it appears since the rings only appear when you are near them. So no way back. No escape. The door sealed. End of the road.

And now I know! I think it serves as a pretty good way to introduce the player to hidden bonus stages, though.

Locit wrote:And now I know! I think it serves as a pretty good way to introduce the player to hidden bonus stages, though.

That is what it is for, yes. But it should be avoidable.

Like you said, we should be able to just spindash under it.

Also something I noticed at that part. Under it there is some water - if you jump in with the fire/electric shield, you lose it, as would make sense. They removed this from the new games.

Kogen wrote:That is what it is for, yes. But it should be avoidable.

Try holding left as you exit the chute!

That ring is indeed entirely avoidable, by more than one method. If it's your first time you're not going to be able to avoid it, of course, but then you're also not going to be fussed about doing so.

Kogen wrote:Also something I noticed at that part. Under it there is some water - if you jump in with the fire/electric shield, you lose it, as would make sense. They removed this from the new games.

Do you mean new editions of Sonic 3 (like the emulated copy on Sonic Mega Collection), or entirely different Sonic games?

Ritz wrote:Try holding left as you exit the chute!

Or jumping, now that I think about it.

I usually just leave it alone and it goes through it. Sonic's face seems intended to smash through solid walls.

Also Wombat thing: new games, like Advance/Rush.

Magnetic Shield != Electric Shield.